Noodle, good thread for WS to read. My H is not as articulate, but I know he feels this. I'm sorry for you, not because I have hurt you, but because I am one of the same as your H, and for that I am sorry to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However much regret he has over what he has done..he also has memories of pleasure and excitement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can tell you I no longer have memories of pleasure or excitement. Everything about the A, is horrible to me, shameful, and it has only been a few months since DDAY.

Are you assuming his opinion, or is this something he states. Pleasure is not even close to what I feel about the A.

I try to keep from reading post such as this, fear I guess, or shame, fear of what you all think of the WS to be.

I read this, and I think, how awful these people are, how could they be so selfish, that is not me, then I remember, wait, that was me, and I'm filled with shame.

I love my H, and I'm so incredibly sorry for this mess I brought to our M. I'm sorry for all of you as well.

Noodle, my H forgave me, he loves me so much, and I have never been more thankful for anything in my entire life.

I'm so glad for his sake to have been able to forgive me. I see the hatred he carries for OM, and it crushes me, for him. I hate that he carries that feeling around inside of him, because of something I have done. I want peace for my H.

I want peace for you Noodle.

KY-4

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV {{chocolate covered hug}}


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Jelly

Committed,

I don't have an answer to your question about how a married woman can be "manipulated" into having an affair. All I can tell you is that I used to wonder how a person could have an affair, thought they must be the lowest life form, do they only have half a brain, or what?

And then I found myself standing in the shoes of those I had condemned.

Maybe someday I shall find myself in your shoes.

Onlywords

committedandlovingit,

I am a BS and would like to answer your question on manipulation.

Without even talking about spiritual issues, the topic can be discussed with a lot of insight.

I will use “my” definition of manipulation. To me, if you play on someone’s intellect, morals, or emotions to get them to do something that they are not opting to do naturally, then you are manipulating them.

With that definition, we all manipulate to some extent and no one thinks anything of it. It is the way the world works. Issue is made only when someone is manipulated to the extent that a great wrong or other dastardly deed is done.

In fact, we are all manipulating each other right now, hopefully with positive results.

Some of us are good at it, especially in certain areas. An attorney manipulates a jury. I am regarded as having some wisdom on this board, but you would NOT want me to be your attorney. I might have the legal knowledge, but not having practiced SKILL of manipulating a jury, how well would I be in the courtroom?

Doctor’s have their bedside manner. Salesmen have their pitches. Politicians have their platforms. Musicians have their songs. All forms of manipulating via intellect, emotions, or morals.

It is a learned skill that can be used for good or bad.

Now let’s rule out a certain class of A – the one night stand. Let’s just consider the EA that leads to the PA.

If there is an individual who is predatory in nature regarding having sex, and this individual could easily be man or woman, is it such a stretch to believe that this individual could have a practiced skill at manipulating others to the bed? Even at the expense of a marriage vow?

I am not saying the person who WAS manipulated has no blame. They have an equal share as it does take two to tango. All I am saying is that with certain individuals there is a greater chance that they may be successful in their goal. Some attorneys are better than others. Same with doctors, politicians, etc. Why? Their ability to manipulate is one reason.

One cannot rule out the contribution of this when considering an affair. Yes, my WW “took off her underwear” and made a conscious choice. To put me aside. To put aside her wedding vows. If the skill of her OM at manipulation was not a factor, where would that leave her? Without this factor why would she not succumb to ANY prompting for a little interaction? She, in fact, does not.

I am in no way saying that she did not choose. She, also, has not blamed the OM for her CHOICE. But if CHOICE were the only factor, why all the words to the BS along the lines of “what did YOU do to aggravate the CONDITIONS for the affair?” “What ENs were you NOT meeting?” Surely if the condition of the marriage PRIOR to the affair is a factor, than the ability to manipulate the WS is one too. Not an excuse, mind you, but a factor.

My FWWs OM was PREDATORY. BVs OM was PREDATORY and probably had formal training in reading and creating emotional responses.

The manipulation is far more complex than the simple lie of “I’m not married, so it’s OK.” It is an attack on the boundaries of the WS, especially in the case of the predatory OP. It is in the same “class” as the pedophile luring a child into a car with candy. It is, plain and simple, recognition of the needs and feelings that the manipulated person needs and then supplying them.

Sometimes two people meet each others needs without realizing it and fall in to an affair. But the truth of the matter is, there are people out there who are predatory when it comes to sexual encounters. Some of these unfortunate WS, who again still made a choice, crossed these people at the wrong time in their lives.

It only takes a little thought to consider that your parents, who know you well, would have an easier time manipulating you into doing something wrong than I would have into doing something right. Especially if it was against your nature. Part of your parent’s ability is from the long term relationship, but part is that they KNOW you well and know what motivates you.

Now contrast this – I have hopefully established the fact that there are some people out there who are skilled at manipulation. But relative to what? Would Michael Jordan be considered a basketball player of his caliber IF HE WAS THE ONLY ONE? Or would he just be a guy who could throw a ball in that little net up there?

Skills are seldom absolute. Because there are people who are good at manipulating, there must be people (and probably lots more) who are easy to manipulate. If that were NOT so, how would you discriminate between someone who is good at it and someone who is not? Picture two people trying to convince a stand of pine trees to lean north using words. The pine trees are NOT going to be manipulated in this way, so which of the two has the skill? You cannot tell.

So now you have a predatory individual skilled at manipulating that has targeted someone who is easy to manipulate. (No offense ladies, but the stay-at-home-mom is the PRIME candidate. Mostly interacting with kids and friends and neighbors and not facing the dog-eat-dog goings on of the outside world on a daily basis.) That in no way makes the affair less reprehensible, but perhaps lends more understanding to the why of it.

Kind of like the guy robbing the store to feed his kids vice the one feeding his habit. Both stole and should be punished, but…

NCWalker

Agreeing with NCwalker Re: manipulation.

Noodle, are you saying, regarding 'manipulation' that you are admitting that YOU are the manipulator?
That you have this one big sin that your husband committed and you are almost ENJOYING holding it over him forever?

Noodle, your husband got naked and put his penis in another's woman's vagina, one time...GET OVER IT! He is repentant and sorry.

Life cannot be rewound and started over; we have to go to 'next'.....It has happened and now you need to decide whether to forgive and go on with your life as a happy family. (Forgiveness IS a decision!)

Are you going to pour hot tar on him and feather him for the rest of his life? Are you going to lead him around with a choker chain and continually yank on his neck?

In this case I feel more sorry for him than for you....If I were him, I would want to get away from an UNFORGIVING wife....You have basically said you are going to muck-rake this for always.
Why would he want to stay with a wife that would hold this over his head forever and continually bring up his past transgression?

I do feel sorry for you in that you can't forgive and let it go...As JL said in another thread where I asked him to give you advice. "Some people don't want advice and just want to stay angry."

Unfortunately you are not the only BS that feels this way...I thank my Lord that he gave my heart the grace and mercy to forgive my H's betrayal...
A mom is the sunshine of the home...without a forgiving spirit, EVERYONE WOULD BE MISERABLE and in darkness!
Love, Julie

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

P.S. I hope YOU can soon get out of the fog YOU are in...what with two children and a new little baby soon to be born...You are not even happy about this because you are CHOOSING to WALLOW in your husband's one sin! That is the saddest of all...sadder than his one night stand!

It is your DECISION, if you want to carry this 'piano' around for the rest of your life or give this heartache to Jesus and find joy in your life again with your WONDERFUL family.

ncwalker,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If the skill of her OM at manipulation was not a factor, where would that leave her? Without this factor why would she not succumb to ANY prompting for a little interaction? She, in fact, does not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand how this belief can make it easier to cope with the actions of a WS but I personally don't buy it.

Yes there are manipulators in the world that we deal with on a daily basis and there are those that are more vulnerable to being manipulated.

There are also those who hold themselves accountable for their own choices and actions, and there are those that would rather defer some of the responsibility to other persons or circumstances surrounding their choices or actions.

I'd have to agree with what committed posted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The use of the word "manipulate" is used to absolve one of any guilt...as in "through no choice of my own". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whether through manipulation or not, we are responsible and accountable for our own choices and actions. To suggest that a WS is somehow manipulated into making all the wrong choices, including extramarital sex is absurd, IMO.

As much as the BS wants to hold their WS accountable for the A, there is also that part of the BS that wants to protect their WS and defer some or all of the accountability off of the WS's shoulders.

Manipulation is a convenient scapegoat IMO.

Blessed Time:

I had chosen not to respond to your earlier post which is nearly identical to this one because I understand that we are not approaching this issue from the same page... I also understand that your family has suffered a loss recently and so am reluctant to retaliate on the same level that you seem insistent on attacking me. Yes, I do see it as an attack..you have made up your mind about my situation with very little input, and are making assumptions that are incorrect. I will grant you the benefit of the doubt [once] that I have misrepresented my position in a way that you find offensive and answer with correct information the answers to the questions that you appear to be making assumptions about [if I am answering the wrong questions please ask for the information rather than make sweeping generalizations..if I feared exposure I wouldn't be here]. If you persist in your approach I will assume that you are willfully misunderstanding me in order to remain locked into your position for some reason and will not be answering further posts from you.

Manipulation:
I agree with NCWalker that manipulation is a fact of life and not necessarily a bad thing..we have many different words to express what is basically the same concept..for example tact, win/win approach to negotiating, and several examples of benign use that NCWalker already stated. Manipulation is usually used in a situation involving deceit..so we are used to saying that a lawyer or salesman is manipulative, but that a nurse was tactfull. It isn't set in stone..just common usage. Either way the person is using their faculties to meet their objective. Using the same logic most MB concepts make use of manipulative strategy in meeting their objective..recovery of the marriage relationship.

To address your second assumption..Let me state for the record that I have *never* used his adultery as leverage. Are we all on the same page so far? Even in a situation where I might have and been completely justified..in a dispute where that moment comes that I might have inserted his offense..and we both know it..and didn't. I'll get back to this with an example while addressing another issue. Verbal abuse is verbal abuse without regard to what might have roused the abusers anger. I do not condone it and have not engaged in in.

Let me assure you that watching my life partener set his gaze on self destructive behavior has been an experience that carries no joy whatsoever.

Next up..GET OVER IT:
He is contrite but not repentant. He is ashamed and sorry for what he has done....specifically regarding having sex with another woman. He was deceitfull about his behavior months prior and continued to engage in inappropriate AND deceitfull behavior after. So the tally thus far is about a year and a half..and he seems more or less out of his fog HOWEVER there is territory yet to be charted and this is by no means over. There is a lifestyle that he is attracted to. He is receptive to it's charms. This is another aspect of manipulation. In order for it to work, the *victim* must be receptive to the lure. My manipulations lie in making the marriage/family with all of it's responsibilities and restrictions WORTH the loss of the freedom associated with irresponsibility [which is, in my opinion largely smoke and mirrors but an addictive draw nonetheless]. This brings an opportunity to use a dispute we had as a model for my approach to his fog and my desire to refrain from using his infidelity as a collar. He told me that he was going out to a restaurant with a friend [same sex]. Three days later I discovered via an aquaintance that the "restaurant" was in a fact a "bar" and on dollar drink night..ie: singles hook up night. He did not get drunk, and most likely did not make any attempt to seek out other women. He came home at a reasonable hour. Why is this an issue? He willfully misrepresented his intentions because he knew that it was a bad decision but he wanted to do it anyway. He knowingly put himself into an inappropriate situation trusting himself to resist temptation. He made himself [and me] vulnerable for the sake of what had become his definition of "fun" [loose behavior with loose people]. When I confronted him I told him that it was unacceptable that he had lied to me. I told him that the choices he was making were deceitfull and destructive and that I would not tolerate them. Period. We both knew I might have very reasonably drawn on his previous experience as *proof* that he could not be trusted. Frankly I don't think it's necessary. He wanted to eat the fruit of both trees. I held him at swordpoint and said "choose". I have never regretted my stance.

I agree with you that forgiveness is a choice..with regard to action. You can *choose* to make your decisions with forgiveness as a model. What you can not do is force your emotions to cooperate. I have seen women try. I have seen them forcing themselves into a two dimensional mold trying with all of their might to become a living representation of a concept. The result is a frightening caricature that invokes thoughts of Pollyanna on crack. I agree with the idea of the giver and the taker. My giver understands, my taker begrudges. I need them both. A poster [maybe PEP?] suggested [roughly, not quoting] that the giver and taker create a balance..a healthy balance that allows us our boundaries in life. I agree. I do not fear my darker emotions..I am aware of them, I acknowledge them. I do *not* have the opportunity to express them in my marriage at this time [see manipulations and MB agenda]. My feelings about what has taken place are what they are. The fact that he was naked with another woman tears me up inside in a way that I am unable to comrehend much less describe. It is primal. I'm fine with it. Sex is sacred for me whether a "lovemaking" session or a "quicky" in a public restroom. It is all an expression of my whole self, my devotion, and my passion for him. There has never been another man inside of me. We shared something special and unique that has been sullied. The damage is done. My emotions will not rationalize it and they will not get over it. He is aware of my feelings..I have not closed him off to them..but I also do not beat him over the head with them..counterproductive at best. There is a difference between telling someone that you are feeling nauseated...and puking on their feet.

Regarding the upcoming birth..I am unable to be joyfull about bringing another child into this charged and unstable situation. I absolutely dread the extra energy I will have to expend. It doesn't mean that I don't love my child. It means that the unhappy circumstances surrounding this birth starkly contrast the births of his/her siblings. The labor and delivery itself scares the bejabbers out of me. My self control will be at it's lowest point and yet, in the midst I will still have to focus on not offending him. He is the whole of my support and it isn't enough..I'll be lucky if he is even present.

I begin to wonder if people haven't misunderstood "the piano". They are missing my point en masse, so I must have expressed it badly. When thinking about the piano..don't forget about the car. I used pushing a car uphill as a metaphor to describe trying to get a faltering relationship to a safe place using human strength rather than turning the key and driving it up the hill. The piano was in reference to a cavalier attitude about this effort..as though I were an indestructable tool. As though pushing the car weren't taking all of my time and energy and were just an obvious daily duty on scale with taking out the trash. People seem to have latched onto it though as a metaphor to describe how it feels to carry the burden of the affair emotionally, while an apt description..it was not the intent.

Finally, it was clearly stated in my heading that my post was a rant, and not a calm and objective dissection of our marriage. One poster described it as a stream of consciousness..and that is exactly what it was. I look back on it and am pleased because I had managed to convey exactly what I was feeling at the time. I intentionally allowed my feelings to run amuck so that I could have a look at them by light of day. They are dark and uncomfortable feelings..not the loving ones that can be expressed easily and freely..but they need an outlet nonetheless. They are valid in my opinion and not to be shushed or apologised for. They are inherently selfish [see "rant"] as I was taking a moment to address a part of myself that was being neglected and I needed an appropriate forum in which to do it. If this offends you feel free to disregard any posts of mine with rant in the title..or any at all if you feel we are too much at odds to be civil. If you would like to continue to give me input and receive it in return though, I would be happy to consider this issue resolved and continue to get to know you.---Noodle

Not offended whatsoever, Noodle.
I guess I was/am assuming your 'rant' was not just HERE at MB but also towards your husband.

That is what I meant by continually pouring hot tar on him and feathering him.
Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Then you were/are assuming wrongly. You know what hapens when we assume. [censored] u me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

wrongly?! WRONGLY!!! ack.
[Noodle, who seems to have misplaced her brain this morning]

Yep...that is what I have always heard about assumptions also....lol

This MB message board IS a good place to rant...much better than LBing on our mates.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yep...that is what I have always heard about assumptions also....lol

This MB message board IS a good place to rant...much better than LBing on our mates.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BV,

Thank you for your attempt at explanation. I appreciate it.

onlywords,

Thank you for responding.

ncwalker ,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will use “my” definition of manipulation. To me, if you play on someone’s intellect, morals, or emotions to get them to do something that they are not opting to do naturally, then you are manipulating them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By naturally, do you mean what they know to be morally right..or something that a person does without second thought?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> With that definition, we all manipulate to some extent and no one thinks anything of it. It is the way the world works. Issue is made only when someone is manipulated to the extent that a great wrong or other dastardly deed is done </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like when someone would be "manipulated" into robbing a bank? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I know that the "manipulation" card would not be played there unless the person could be sited with a mental defect of some sort that allowed for them to not be able to "reason". Still, that person would have to make some type of restitution for that crime and be held accountable.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If there is an individual who is predatory in nature regarding having sex, and this individual could easily be man or woman, is it such a stretch to believe that this individual could have a practiced skill at manipulating others to the bed? Even at the expense of a marriage vow?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I would have to say that EVERYONE is always running with the choice of saying NO. If the person is predatory in nature it would constitute a sexual offense to do that...wouldn't it? BUT, the person did not say NO...their participation was clearly a YES. So, that wouldn't wash either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If the skill of her OM at manipulation was not a factor, where would that leave her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to say that left her dishonorable in her vows to you. It would also leave her having to accept the ENTIRE responsibility in her CHOICE to participate.

It simply seems to me to be a convenient place to put blame and salvage one's own conscious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is in the same “class” as the pedophile luring a child into a car with candy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a statemen that I would have to disagree with. Children are innocents...that's how they are preyed upon. Children have not developed the skills needed that make saying NO an option. Children have been taught to "obey" grownups..."respect" their elders. In most cases they are still being taught right from wrong and have yet to reach the age of accountability. It is just not the same with an adult who has chosen to participate in an affair. They have been taught to say NO...they have been taught right from wrong..and they do know the repurcussions that follow such a bad choice.

Thank you for taking the time to post such a detailed answer. I have to say that I still maintain my initial opinion, but hey, it wasn't your job to "convince" me to change it anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

committed

ba109,

Feel a little misunderstood. I agree that there is a CHOICE. At the end of the day, the WS makes a CHOICE to betray and break a vow.

My post was in response to the question of how can manipulation be involved. And I still retain the stance I presented.

It is on thing to say "I will never steal" when your children are well fed and your house is in good repair. Most will not steal. Take away the good home and starve the children. Face someone with the same option - steal or not. The RIGHT choice is to NOT steal. Many will at that point out of survival.

All I am saying is that given a predatory OP skilled at manipulation, the WS has a HARDER time making the right choice. But it REMAINS a choice.

It is just too simple an outlook on life to think that the tact of the OP is NOT a factor. It is a FACTOR in the betrayal, not an EXCUSE, but a factor.

NCW

Noodle, Yep...that is what I have always heard about assumptions also....lol

This MB message board IS a good place to rant...much better than LBing on our mates.
And I confess to a bit of a rant myself...SORRY!
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
It is just too simple an outlook on life to think that the tact of the OP is NOT a factor. It is a FACTOR in the betrayal, not an EXCUSE, but a factor.

NCW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know... almost universally .... the betrayed spouse blames the tactics of the OP....

I thought OW was more agressive. Her husband thought Mr. Pepp was the more agressive affairree...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's what BS's do to get through it all without going insane.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I was thinking it was just me....I thought if I could just grow up, stop thinking of this and move on. A one night stand still hurts. How can you trust again? H thinks he's already said he's very sorry; it won't happen again....it never happened before I should get over it.

I'm going to let H read this; we were in the process of trying to conceive another child. I was doing fertility treatments and everything.

He went away for a golf weekend and wound up with a whore....so after 19+ years of marriage and tons of ups and downs...His selfish needs came first.
Now, do I continue in my pursuit to have more children? My biological clock keeps ticking... Should I let his selfish act prevent me from having another child? This is something I really, really want.

Thanks for putting into words what I felt. Maybe after H reads this he'll fully understand how it feels without ever being betrayed by me.