NOODLE,

You are a GEM! All the posts on this thread are fantastic. (even the thread-jackers, - got a little heated there!)

Pollyanna on crack!! LOL

k

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]</small>

Clear and to the point Pep.

I find that when people do something wrong and are faced with the prospect of having to live with themselves after, they cope with this using two methods.

Method 1 - Repent and pray for forgiveness. Requires admission a wrong was done. Difficult to do for some. Note that the forgiveness is not a guarantee, but a benefit. Repentance is a requirement for this method to work.

Method 2 - Assign causality to others. "I couldn't help myself." I have seen people convince themselves of this to such an extent (in other areas besides As) that one would think WAT's infamous alien abduction theory were true.

When you boil it all away, it comes down to the choice. The WS said yes simply because they wanted to.

I think this manipulation discussion is more along the lines of the conditions, not the reason. Go back to stealing. I may need some extra cash and I could steal to get some.

One option may be to rob a bank. Stealing may not be in my nature and the daunting task of defeating the banks security will probably keep me from trying it. What if I am visiting your house at a party and through a little snooping see a $20 in your kitchen junk drawer? Again, stealing is not in my nature, but currently I really need the money, and you probably wouldn’t miss it, and it’s only a twenty …

One situation is easier, more tempting, whatever, and I choose to throw away my morals.

All I am saying is that the same analogy holds during the affair. In my specific case, my FWW was not “seeking” this. She fell into it with a person who abused a professional relationship. If the OM in my case had a shred of honor, he would not have initiated what he did. I don’t think I would be sitting here today if the OM in my case were more like me. I would not have tried anything.

Yes. My FWW made a choice and, frankly, wanted to, or she would have NOT. She is not claiming anything different (and is acting on Method 1, above). But if it had been ME in the OP’s shoes, there would have been no opportunity. To that extent, his predatory nature and ability to manipulate increased the odds, as it were, for the affair.

What is the lesson? Onlywords said it well when she said she USED to scorn and judge people who could and then she became one.

The lesson is we can never assume that all is right in the world in our marriages. We must communicate and be vigilant – radical honesty. Essentially all of Harley’s techniques should followed and we must be on guard.

I SAY, rather vehemently, that I would never betray my wife. But I haven’t been truly tempted either. In the military, we simulate combat as closely as possible at great expense. But even then, you never really “know” how you are going to act until enemy rounds are striking the wall around your head. Until that point, you only think you know.

I still maintain my stance on manipulation. It aggravates the conditions that led to betrayal, but does not excuse it. We can resist temptation through Christ who strengthens us, but let us all pray we remember to ASK when the time comes.

NCWalker

Wow Noodle. You write with such passion and clearity, that your sadness and heartache made it hard for me to breath! It makes my issues seems so trivial. Yet I really want to read the reply you posted to me (masterbation/lying) I don't know why but when I open the posting your writing is not there. Only my posting and the one other reply. Am I doing something wrong, or could you post your reply again so I can read it.

I hope things get better for you. I read some of the replies posted to you and I am obviously not the only one touched by your words.

Greg

Wow Noodle. You write with such passion and clearity, that your sadness and heartache made it hard for me to breath! It makes my issues seems so trivial. Yet I really want to read the reply you posted to me (masterbation/lying) I don't know why but when I open the posting your writing is not there. Only my posting and the one other reply. Am I doing something wrong, or could you post your reply again so I can read it.

I hope things get better for you. I read some of the replies posted to you and I am obviously not the only one touched by your words.

Greg

Regards..
I think that your situation would be better served [and more likely to get responses] with it's own post. You have a real decision to make and if you would like input from other posters you'll probably have better luck asking for advice in your own thread rather than tacking onto what is likely the last dregs of this one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ..I'm still processing and plan to respond later when I can give you more attention---Noodle

MANIPULATE: To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.

PERSUADE: To win over (someone) to a course of action by reasoning or inducement.

Based on these definitions, I think the key words here are "influence" and "inducement".

I think if the OP was not "skilled" at influencing or inducing others, some wayward spouses would not have made the choice they made. Some people are more "vulnerable" to manipulation and/or persuasion.....meaning they are more likely to succumb to influence.

Yes, ultimately it is a CHOICE, but it is a choice that would not have been made had that OP not been so highly skilled in the areas of manipulation and/or persuasion.

If ten different men had tried to persuade me to have an affair with them, only one would have succeeded, and it was the one who was very skilled at persuasion/manipulation. (Oh, in the definition for manipulation, the influence exerted is solely for personal gain)

Anyone want the definition for "hypnotized"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Julie

Thanks, I know. I guess it was more of a rhetorical question. You really have helped me. Some of my feeling can be read in your post, feelings I had trouble expressing. I'm not big on giving out prayers for people but I'll absolutly say one for you.
Regards

ncwalker, your comments about manipulation were spot on in our case. I am a little reluctant to go on record as saying that, because as the BS, others might think I'm not really being honest about what my husband did. I certainly don't believe the OP's ability to manipulate, fully accounts as to why the WS decides they want to take off their clothes with OP, but the manipulation aspect adds another piece to the puzzle. (I'm sure that's all you were suggesting)

I've put flattery, self validation, sexual attraction, geographical/environmental influence, self importance, mid life crisis (fear of growing old) and a disconnected upbringing into the picture so far and now I add your comments about manipulation to my process of "understanding", which I'm told is the pathway to acceptance.

In fact my H's situation was an absolute corker of manipulation. He being a very well liked and respected man who was ALWAYS smart, steady and reliable. Mr Lovely Phd (that's a Dr. Lovely). We were married 30 yrs when it happened - and I am certain that my H has always loved me very much. It might not be relevent, but I am well above average for my age - very slim and very fit (wear a bikini better than most 30 yo's) - I'm attractive with a qwerky personality. I've never been short of male attention. So why would my average looking 50 yo H who's never been close to being unfaithful, stray after the great relationship that we shared for so long? Well like you said in your post, A's come about when people are vulnerable and time and opportunity favors the manipulation.

One day, out of the blue, H get's a letter from a very pretty girl who lives in our building. She's half his age and she was asking my H whether he'd like to get to know her better - but with the diversionary tactic of: "can you teach me English?" H is an academic, so that was a smart move. Another good line was "this is a secret!". Mmmm. Perfect comment to a married man. H loves to teach. He's a lovely guy and he hates to say no (always has) and he's on his own a lot coz I'm out of the country attending to family matters - dying mother etc. He's getting on in years and his best friend has just told him that he's having an A (very common here in Asia). OW knew she was attractive and that he was alone a lot. She knew he was middle aged (50) and therefore vulnerable to a 26 yo and she knew he had a very well paid job (a Professor). She works for $13US per day, in a live in position with two days off per month (she's a modern day slave). She is very poor and she wants what we have. Poorer Asian girls don't mind going with old men to fast track it to the easy life. She thought she could benefit financial from gaining my H's interest in her.

He did find it flattering, because she was very pretty and had large breasts (damn). He didn't have to do anything, just say yes (and the English lessions would have made him feel better about responding to her). The flattery was very powerful and he'd had no life experience of other women - as we met when we were 14 and 15 and our marriage had been very close. He'd never showed the least bit of interest in other women until that moment when the seed was planted.

I think he didn't know how to get out of it once it started. He was sorry that he'd started it, but didn't like to tell her he'd made a mistake - and in some ways he was frightened of her. She was very pushy about seeing him and he is quite a weak man with people - always hating to offend people. He likes everyone to like him. And so he was the perfect target for her. As you said. Some people are more easily manipulted.

But then I found out and boy did she get upset. She hung up on him when he called her to say it was over. She was pretty mad after all the effort she'd gone to to get him involved with her. He felt nothing for her, just relief that he could get away from her. Interesting eh? Not all A's are the same but I certainly think manipulation and vulnerable personalities are part of the puzzle. And I for one thank you for drawing my attention to yet another area to understand how this could have happened - coz when I first learned of it I was thunder struck - because this kind of behavior was so alien to anything I'd ever witnessed in my H.

Interesting that you think stay at home mom's are vulnerable. I've always been a stay at home mom and I'm not the least bit vulnerable. I think I realised very early on that I had a lot of power in my personality. I knew that I could get men interested in me very easily and decided that I didn't want this for my life. I think I was protected by my confidence in myself. I didn't need an A to validate my attractiveness. I think some people who have one off A's are not so confident about their attractiveness to the opposite sex, and get bowled over by the attention and flattery.

Originally posted by onlywords:
Yes, ultimately it is a CHOICE, but it is a choice that would not have been made had that OP not been so highly skilled in the areas of manipulation and/or persuasion.

What would make someone "ripe" for manipulation?

Let me tell you my answer first...

~~~ A sense that there was going to be a net gain by following the manipulator.~~~

And the easiest way to manipulate?

By offering ~shortcuts~ to reach the net gain.

Think about this.... and let me know what this may mean to you.....

Pep

Interesting Pep, (sorry for jumping in ahead of OW).

I would ask if your sense of net gain implies that there is an end goal in mind.

Sometimes we make choices (usually the hasty ones) with no end goal in mind. That would be a reaction to either a positive or negative interaction.

So someone skilled in manipulation may draw someone down a path where the drawn individual does not see the end of the road. The drawn individual may then decide it is easier to follow the wrong path for a while than back up and make the right choice.

NCW

Originally posted by ncwalker:


Sometimes we make choices (usually the hasty ones) with no end goal in mind. That would be a reaction to either a positive or negative interaction.

I did not say "goal"... because I meant "gain"....

More like a "get rich quick" offer...

Pep

CREEEAACCKKEEEEACCHHH!

(The above was the sound of NCWalker being straightened out)

NCW...

A ~Q~ for you...

As a man... haven't you ever felt manipulated by a woman using her feelings as the manipulative tool?

She wants you to do X.
You don't want to do X.
So the female cries, or pouts or withdraws until you go do X.

Let's face it NCW... we ALL manipulate someone somewhere ... even babies do it. Sometimes we manipulate in order to survive!

I don't think all manipulation is wrong or evil.

Pep

BWAAA HAAAA HAAA HAAAA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You're kidding, right?

I was the Poster Child for being manipulated by the fairer sex.

I was the kind-hearted, geeky, scrawny high-schooler that couldn't get dates. AND the shoulder all the girls cried on when they were hurt by the pretty boys.

I gave them rides home. Listened. Etc. Got NOTHING in return. Seldom even respect from them.

Know what I learned?

How WRONG it is to emotionally take advantage of another individual - great life lesson for me.

How WRONG it is to enable people to wallow in their self-pity. My affair experience has been one of the worst things in my life and if I even start to pity myself, I get really hard on myself. Probably too much. Feelings denial and all that.

Forced me into an "only the strong survive" lifestyle and I grew up fast. (About the time I met RAP). I have since, of course, mellowed and tempered myself.

But on the whole, I don't think manipulation is wrong. It is like persuasion. It is just a simple interaction between two people. All the rightness and wrongness is in the motives and choices.

NCW