Believer, I read and I post a little, but this is not a safe enough place for me to share my story or work on my issues. MB has been helpful to me in that I've learned a great deal about infidelity and what I believe. Sometimes wayward spouses are treated like children here, told what to do and what to feel. I'm not a fan of 2x4's, and it would be harmful to my recovery to take on anger from those I have had no part in hurting. In the long run, I'm the only one who determines whether or not I act with integrity, and forgiving myself and being able to move past guilt makes me stronger not weaker. Very few of us in this world are angels or demons. Believer, you treat all people here with respect, and your posts are among those I search out. Seeing wayward spouses being treated with respect by betrayed spouses touches me and inspires me. It strengthens me in a way that I can't quite explain, but I am so grateful.

I’m a FWS. Why do I stay? I guess I must get something out of this forum.

Sometimes, I just observe SOME BS’s righteous indignation . . . as if they were a perfect spouse, completely an innocent victim of the WS’s evil, selfish behavior. Many, many WS begin an affair after years of indifference or abuse. Is it wrong? Yep. But, these things don’t happen in a vacuum do they?

Other times, I marvel and SOME WS and the way they justify their decisions. As if somehow they deserved to have the affair because of some failing in the BS’s character of behavior.

I primarily hang around to try to explain, in my own words, how someone can be lead away into an affair. I try to make it clear that if you don’t show love to your spouse, if you don’t respect them and cherish them . . . someone else probably will. That is something that I try to keep in my thoughts also when living my life. I also try to remind the WS’s that do come here, to remember that they are still people of worth . . . they just made some bad decisions. It is my experience that the WS is harder on themselves than the BS could ever be; at least that is my observation.

Finally, I like to remind the extremely pissed-off BS’s that if they think they couldn’t possibly have an affair, to be careful. I thought the exact same thing. If you go years without passion, warmth, praise, concern, etc., and someone begins to provide it . . . it is very hard to just ignore it. If my relationship ever returned to the pre-affair state, I would pack my bags and start spending heavily on a lawyer. Noone deserves to be as miserable in a marriage as I was. I didn’t have the guts to do the right thing then, (leave), I do now.

CN,
I had to reread your post a few times before I was able to read it rationally. Once I realized that I wasn't really reading it, but reacting to emotions, it became clear to me what the friction is on the boards.

There is a PROFOUND difference between the pain that a BS feels opposed to the pain a WS feels. Are they comparable? I would have to say no.

IN MY OPINION, and it's only that, opinion, I think SOME BS feel victimized at times. That puts them in a very vulnerable place, and sometimes when you log in, and find a former WS pouring out more thoughts and feelings for the loss of the OP, than the emotional demise of their own spouse it rakes the pain that's already been experienced. Does it mean the WS shouldn't be able to work through those feelings ? Absolutely not, but on a Marriage Building board, it's the IN YOUR FACE that brings the pain up close and personal.

I also think that from what I'm reading, it's particularly easy for a BS to come here and voice there resentment, their anger, their pain, their hurt. Is it misdirected ? Probably. I think sometimes it's a rant or a rave, just to get those feelings out. I don't think anyone here means to ATTACK anyone personally.

So much of what anyone writes here can be so closely associated with their own situation, that maybe when a BS or a WS spouse lashes out, it's taken too personally.

I for one, could debate all day about the part I am or am not responsible for in the A. I could give my own H a list 12 times longer than his about the suffering I've gone through opposed to what he's gone through due to HIS indiscretion. IF we were comparing.

I hope peace comes through this.

The bottom line is we are all here for one reason, and one reason only, to equip ourselves to BUILD BETTER MARRIAGES.

<strong> There is a PROFOUND difference between the pain that a BS feels opposed to the pain a WS feels. Are they comparable? I would have to say no.</strong>

As I haven't been on both sides of the issue, I really don't have an objective view on who's pain is stronger or the difference between the pain. Some people are masochistic and others aren't even self-aware. Pain, and the reaction to it is personal and varies from individual to individual. I think that we can agree, however, that this business is miserable for all involved.

I think I react to the smugness that I sometimes find in posters; and in my experience, this is typically the domain of the BS here. I often see the WS painted as evil, immoral, a slug, lowlife, whore, etc. If these people are so bad, I wonder why the BS ever married them in the first place. These folks, me included, did a terrible thing, it doesn’t make them terrible people.

If I were a BS, I believe that I would have to make one of two choices: 1) try to work past the betrayal and build a better marriage with the WS; 2) walk away and file for divorce. The posting of justifications for imposing perpetual punishment on the WS, and the affirmations of said actions seems petulant to me. I guess you can get your pound-of-flesh, but in the end you either want to be married to your spouse or you do not. And it certainly is your choice . . . so make it. I guess some of it is just blowing off steam . . . and that is a good thing.

My sympathies, initially, belong to the BS. They are the ones that had the greater-wrong forced upon them. They are the ones that usually post. But, always be aware, you only really hear one side of the situation. In the cases where the BS and the WS both post it becomes increasingly harder to determine who exactly is evil. It often becomes the case that they both did some pretty heavy damage to the marriage.

So why do the WS post? I still don’t really know. I guess this is the one place where most share a common history. I can read about others dealing with the same issues that I have. Misery loves company.

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

As all can see from my signiture line, I am long past raw emotions. However, I have a lot of comments to post. As I have a class in 10 minutes, the post will have to arrive later tonight or tomorrow.

Be warned, I am a BS.

Believer and all,

Good question. There are a lot of different personality types who post here, some are BS, some are WS, and some are both. There could be as many different reasons for being here as there are posters on any given day. Some people come here to vent, some come looking for advice, some come to offer advice, and some clearly come just to cause trouble. We have to learn what to look out for, but also to understand what our own motives are for reading/posting here.

When I first began reading this site, someone posted the excellent advice to avoid reading threads by posters that you already know will upset you.

It’s helpful when posters use subject lines like “Warning – Rant.” If you know the poster is a BS and you are a WS, you might want to avoid reading that thread.

Some subject lines can be even more obvious. If it says, “I hate all WS’s,” and you are a WS, you might not want to read that thread! Sometimes it’s tempting to want to get into a fight, but it doesn’t really serve a useful purpose when hopefully we are here to learn to get along with our S’s.

Another problem is, most of us don’t really know any of the people who are posting, and we certainly can’t know the true story of that poster’s entire life just by reading the signature line.

Something that I think starts fights a lot here is when any poster writes a sweeping generalization about either side of the sitch. If a BS writes, “WS’s can never understand our pain,” it’s annoying because there is no way a poster can know exactly what someone else (especially an anonymous someone) can or cannot understand, or what he or she has or has not felt.

I relate to Comfortably Numb’s first two posts on this thread, and the things he, Onlywords, and Betrayed in NJ said about comparing pain are what prompted me to write. The subject of who is in the most pain is a common one here, and it really causes a lot of friction. It just seems so pointless and counterproductive to fight about whom is in the most pain.

It’s good for us to read about and try to relate to each other’s pain, though. The reason I began visiting this site is because I wanted strength to continue NC with FOM.

I haven’t ever begun a thread asking for help, but it helped me a lot to read what BS’s were writing about what they were going through. It helped me to concentrate on and consider my H’s pain, and reinforced the necessity for NC in my head and heart.

Writing to other WS’s to try to help them through withdrawal or to try to explain the importance of NC also helps reinforce in my own soul what I’ve learned. I lurk a lot now, and post when something really moves me to.

There are times when I’ve wanted to ask other WS’s specific questions about how to get through some painful problems, like days when I find the guilt almost unbearable and need help forgiving myself again, but I’m hesitant to post because I’m just too stressed to risk adding more stress from the possibility of being blasted by a BS (fearing lines like, "What did you expect?" or "You deserve it; it's your own fault").

Maybe those responses wouldn’t happen, and if they did, I’m an adult, and I know replies are just the opinions of anonymous posters, but my anxiety level on those days would make it harder for me just to filter out any negative responses. It’s disappointing sometimes that I have no one to talk to on those days.

Like Betrayed in NJ, I hope peace comes through this.

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

I came to this site first in 1999. I was the WS then, so I'm qualified to post on this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I had a looooong history of being a cheater. As the relationships I was in turned sour or got a little bumpy, I very easily succumbed to the advances of just about anybody.

I had a three month affair with client and (being a very bad liar) I eventually had to confess to Dylan. Ending the affair was no problem. I was in no way, shape or form in love with OW. She just made me feel sexy and desirable and since that need (very big in my psyche) was sorely wanting, I fell right into the infidelity trap.

The confession just about killed Dylan. Infidelity was one of the worst sins in her books and the pain that she experienced was beyond anything I'd ever imagined possible. Seeing the hurt in her eyes just about killed me too and I decided (there was a crucial moment) that I would spend the rest of my life making it up to her.

She is the one that found MB and we posted together for about a year. I racked up about 1000 posts or so under the name 'deut'.

I stayed because of how much I was learning. Because I felt, in a way, that posting as a WS was a form of penance... helping other BS understand the thought patterns of the WS was a way of balancing out my karma. (Apparently, I should have posted way more)

Also, the attitude on the board was a lot different back then. As a WS, I was received with open arms and no judgemental attacks. There was a lot more patience, understanding and open communication (rather than reactionary flaming).

So that's why I stayed.

MB made a huge difference in my life and psyche. The idea of cheating is no longer acceptable to me. To be sure I was tempted from time to time, but never even came close.

So there ya go.

dewt

There is a PROFOUND difference between the pain that a BS feels opposed to the pain a WS feels. Are they comparable? I would have to say no.

WAIT !!

I definately chose my words wrongly, and was misunderstood.

I didn't mean to imply that the BS hurts in a way incomparable to the WS, that I intended to say, and it just didn't come out that way was I see it as 2 different kinds of hurt, thereby, uncomparable.

I'm sorry if I was misunderstood, I didn't mean to lessen anyone's grief over any of this.

I would go a step further and use my own situation as an example.

I hurt, I suffered, point made.

My H hurts and he suffers, but he has to live with the fact that he brought all the hurt and pain into our lives.

THAT is something I'm glad I don't have to carry.

That burden rips him apart. That's why we don't have these discussions at my house. It's just too painful to keep reliving the past. We focus on moving FORWARD.

How did I get here, OM's W told me about this sight, she wanted me to get help. Yeah, I know she is wonderful, and I'm an idiot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Why have I stayed, read above, I'm an idiot.

I guess because I thought maybe I could help some BS with the way their WS was acting, give them wisdom from the darkside. Give them hope that we can come back to the M we left.

I needed acceptance. I needed to tell people I was a FWW, and still have them accept me. My H has chosen not to tell anybody in our lives, so this was a need for me.

I have a circle of friends here now on MB, who do just that, they accept me for my flaw, for my sin. That has helped me so much in recovery, because I felt so low, so unworthy of anybody's love at times. This place helped me then and still is for that reason.

There are many who stereotype the WS, it hurts, it cuts deep. I guess I see it as punishment, a wake up call, a roll in the bed I made for myself.

I believe we are all in pain, not on the same side of the fence, but all in pain. I wish, hope, pray for us all that we recover.

I love BELIEVER for her open arms and acceptance, she is amazing, and I thank her for that. I am so down right now Believer and I can still smile when I read your name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You have reached out to so many of us, for the people that we are, and looked past the sin that we committed.

I know I did wrong, I'm sorry for that, and it is in my life forever, but I wish to feel good about the person I am, the person I can be, and it helps when somebody like you comes along and understands and accepts and takes the time to get to know who we are, and not just look at us for what we did.

You have no idea how much that means to me, and how much that says about you. The world would be a better place if it was full of that kind of unconditional love, if it was only full of believers.
KY

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]</small>

Wow. I didn't expect to read from so many people. I hope that somehow we can all move forward, and find a way to welcome the WS's to post here and feel accepted.

The marriagebuilders program could really have better results if both marriage partners were reading (and maybe posting) here.

Imagine if you were an alcholic and went to an AA meeting. The first night, what if everyone said you were wrong, you brought this on yourself, you deserve it, you have to quit now. Most likely you would not return.

But AA does not work that way. They welcome you. You are invited to share your story. You become attached to the group, and see that others are going through the same feelings and pain.

Then the group supports you and encourages you in your struggle. Others tell you that they were just as down as you, but they overcame the addiction. That gives you hope to keep trying.

I hope that this board can be like that.

Wise words, believer. Thanks.

dewt

I hang out because there are times where I need the help.

I also care about everyone on this board and what they are going through.

I must admit, it also humbles me - when I think my problems are bad I read someone's post who's situation is worse than mine, and I realize the blessings that God has given me. Kind of like a reality check.

I also like the straight talk from some of the old timers here. Cut's through the red tape and gets to the point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong>I hope that somehow we can all move forward, and find a way to welcome the WS's to post here and feel accepted.

The marriagebuilders program could really have better results if both marriage partners were reading (and maybe posting) here.

Imagine if you were an alcholic and went to an AA meeting. The first night, what if everyone said you were wrong, you brought this on yourself, you deserve it, you have to quit now. Most likely you would not return.

But AA does not work that way. They welcome you. You are invited to share your story. You become attached to the group, and see that others are going through the same feelings and pain.

Then the group supports you and encourages you in your struggle. Others tell you that they were just as down as you, but they overcame the addiction. That gives you hope to keep trying.

I hope that this board can be like that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believer, thanks so much for this post.. I agree with dewt – this is indeed very wise words… Believer, the unconditional love in your posts is evident and I so much appreciate you for that...and for the person you are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DeNovo:
<strong> Sometimes wayward spouses are treated like children here, told what to do and what to feel. I'm not a fan of 2x4's, and it would be harmful to my recovery to take on anger from those I have had no part in hurting. In the long run, I'm the only one who determines whether or not I act with integrity, and forgiving myself and being able to move past guilt makes me stronger not weaker. Very few of us in this world are angels or demons. Believer, you treat all people here with respect, and your posts are among those I search out. Seeing wayward spouses being treated with respect by betrayed spouses touches me and inspires me. It strengthens me in a way that I can't quite explain, but I am so grateful. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with DeNovo on this... I’ve learned that you can’t judge another until you have walked in the same shoes and have done the same mistakes… Before what happened to me, I was very judgmental towards people who allowed themselves into A’s or inappropriate involvements… I always thought it's only "bad" people with no conscience and morals who can have affairs... I even viewed myself as "superior" and a better person than them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> How ashamed I am do admit that today... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> My experience indeed teached me humbleness... I never thought this would ever happen to me, but now I know ANYONE can became vulnerable and I have empathy for the feelings/pain of people who have been in similar situations. To have an A is very wrong, but before someone have not been in the same situation, one can’t fully understand the emptiness, the pain, the loss, the grief, the guilt, shame and all the emotions involved for WS's trying to recover from the consequences of having an A and from missing the OP.

Just as a BS must work through their pain, anger and grief, the WS also have their own emotions to work through and heal from… The pain “deserved” for the WS is very real, and at the same time, through your pain and grief, you must also put your focus on your M and spouse, take responsibility for your actions and the pain you caused your spouse… It IS hard and difficult trying to recover from the emotions on both sides of the coin: On the one side recovering from your own pain and loss and at the same time deal with the pain you've caused your M and deal with the associated guilt etc.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I'm Back!

No, I'm not. I have to think this through more before I can post properly.

Consider this a bump.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong>

Imagine if you were an alcholic and went to an AA meeting. The first night, what if everyone said you were wrong, you brought this on yourself, you deserve it, you have to quit now. Most likely you would not return.

But AA does not work that way. They welcome you. You are invited to share your story. You become attached to the group, and see that others are going through the same feelings and pain.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where is this nice sweet AA group? I want to know!! I have been to HUNDREDS of AA meetings all across the United States for 19 years and have never been to one that allowed a newcomer to get away with making excuses and blameshifting! Bullsh** has a short shelf life in AA. I have NEVER seen one that did not tell newcomers that they were RESPONSIBLE FOR THIER CHOICES and that they had to QUIT NOW. Where is this group, believer?

In fact, in AA we practice TOUGH LOVE with those who are DISHONEST WITH THEMSELVES. Pretty much the same as we do here. Because not insisting on honesty only allows a delusional alcoholic to STAY in his delusion. And allowing an alcoholic to stay in his state of delusion by telling him what he wants to hear and mollycoddling him is CRUEL, UNCARING and UNHELPFUL.

It might make you FEEL good, but it is not helpful at all to a state of recovery.

So believer, as a 19 year AA member, AA circuit speaker, and sponsor of numerous women over the years, please tell me where this AA group is where they tell newcomers nice, sweet words INSTEAD OF what they NEED to hear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong>

Then the group supports you and encourages you in your struggle. Others tell you that they were just as down as you, but they overcame the addiction. That gives you hope to keep trying.

I hope that this board can be like that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you attempting to change others to your standards, believer? I would sure hope not, because I assure you that you do not have that kind of control. You can only control yourself.

Believer, in AA we support each other by telling each the TRUTH, not by blowing smoke up each other's a**. And that support might mean setting a blameshifting member straight with a baseball bat. It works and is effective. Telling people what they want to hear helps NO ONE when it is at the expense of the TRUTH.

Folks can get nice words ANYWHERE, from anyone on the street, but it takes a CARING person, willing to take a RISK, to tell someone what they NEED TO HEAR. Folks who DON'T CARE will just tell you what you want to hear because they don't give a damn and aren't going to put themselves out.

Believer, if you want to treat WSes a certain way around here, that is your prerogative, however, please don't expect that you can dictate your standards to others around here. People communicate in their own style and that is their right. I won't dictate my tough love standards to you, but I expect the same courtesy from you.

I would also add that I have NEVER seen a recovered WS come back years later and thank others for being "nice" to them, [they forgot them] but I SURE have seen them come back and THANK an oldtimer for caring enough to take a 2x4 to them when it was necessary.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Usually FORMER wayward spouses who came and post here are remorseful and repentant and don’t deserve to be beaten up to death about something they ALREADY know was wrong and something they ALREADY feel bad about…

Melody -

You have helped me out a whole bunch over the past year. I greatly admire you, and trust you completely. Maybe you are right.

I have lots of empathy for people, because I have made so many mistakes.

How about this? I will mollycoddle the WS's and you whack them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Suzet*:
<strong> Usually FORMER wayward spouses who came and post here are remorseful and repentant and don’t deserve to be beaten up to death about something they ALREADY know was wrong and something they ALREADY feel bad about… </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know that I would call that the NORM, but certainly one who is repentent and remorseful doesn't deserve to beaten to death. They should be supported and praised for doing the right thing and that is what they get here.