NC, I like it "(e)steem!!

This may be an over simplification, but my husband didn't grow up in a healthy emotional environment at home to say the least.

His time to break free and be accountable for his choices came during college. However by then I think it's safe to say much damage had been done and he did what many of us do, which is look outside for stuffing that need.

Admiration became a very great need. Something we didn't acknowledge as important until we both filled out the EN questionnaires. Even then, it wasn't conscious until we saw the results.

He and I to some degree were surprised to see how high it placed on his list. And he wasn't too happy about it either.

His affair really contributed to satisfying his need for admiration. OW was pretty smart about it and REALLY fed this need. Thing of it is...it still wasn't enough - that's where the black hole comes into play. There isn't enough outside admiration to fill this need, unless/until he contributes to filling it for himself.

To be honest, whether or not it was a "valid" need that wasn't getting met - it still factored into what he was looking for. What I mean by valid is referencing a need he should be addressing, or a need that only I could/should fill.

We were in MC at one point during his affair (we had MC only H didn't tell either me or the MC about the affair) that the point came up that as mature, emotionally healthy adults WE as individuals are responsible for our needs and what action we take about seeing that they are fulfilled. That until we address those "black holes" from the inside out - there can't possibly be enough deposits from the outside to really make a difference. Sort of the "you have to love yourself before you allow anyone else to love you". Also in Harley speak - you have to make a conscious choice to allow someone (your spouse ideally) to make deposits into your LB.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by onlywords:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This can compromise the integrity of the one supposedly providing self esteem from the outside </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, can you explain this more? I'm having trouble following this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks,
Onlywords </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Imagine you and I are married. (~LOL~)

I depend on you to make me feel good about myself. I depend on you to reassure me I am a good-enough spouse and/or person. You like doing this because you like to please me, and it makes you feel good about yourself to please me.

So far so good.

As marriages go... ours is average.

But, we hit a bump in the road. We meet a marriage crisis. And this particular crisis / dilemma / problem demands a change to be made in order to continue being a workable marriage.

You are willing to make the necessary change in yourself to deal with this problem.
You ask me to make the necessary change in myself to also meet the challenge.

When you ask me to change I feel inadequate. I feel less worthy, because why do you need me to change if I am not less worthy?

So, you start to dance around me.
Walking a tightrope of trying to reassure me everything is fine but I need to change.

I fall apart. I feel rejected by your request. I feel I am not to be admired if I am not perfect in your eyes.

Your sense of self depends on being my hero, so you compromise honesty in the relationship in order to be my hero once again.

So, you stop asking me to change. You don't want to hurt me. You accept the problem in the marriage because you don' want to rock the boat and get me all upset.

And neither of us is challenged to grow larger selves.

My passiveness and neediness of you to make me feel good about myself can chew up the marriage's integrity because things must remain unspoken between us to maintain the status quo.

Do not upset me. I will fall apart.

Pep

Only words...

I replied to something you wrote on the Noodle chronicles <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep

Pep, NCW,

Thanks for your input! I wanted to tell PEP that I checked out her response to a post of mine on the Noodle thread...thanks for pointing me over there because I hadn't seen that.

Anyway, I....don't really know what to say right now in answer to that question...except....whoo boy....I definitely had a "sense" that I would gain something by "allowing" myself to be "manipulated". I remember that as I was typing that response on the Noodle thread, I had a DISTINCT feeling I was leaving something out, and that was the sneaking feeling that I actually, somewhere, in this crazy head of mine, knew what the h#@l was going on and allowed it! Geez, if that ain't hard to admit!

But the reasons why...I will have to think about that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Probably won't be on "board" tomorrow...RH and I and the three "stooges" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> are going to Hershey Park!

Would Broken Vessel like me to send some REALLY good chocolates her way????

So, thanks for the stimulating conversation, and the questions that make me think!

I'll get back to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Onlywords

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: onlywords ]</small>

The key word (I think) is

shortcut

If I offered you a way to gain a million dollars... over thirty years of hard work....

vs

If I offered you a way to gain a million dollars...over six weeks requiring little effort.....

This is sort of how I see affairs, by the way...

A sort of "shortcut intimacy"...

Pep

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Ahh, soo,

But if the SHORTCUT were wrong, like stealing the million! What then?

A lot of these FWWs knew an affair was wrong and even after say "I can't believe I did that."

I think it is more of a process. Put one foot over the boundary. Ooops, this is wrong, but FEELS so good. Do I pull back and loose the feeling? Or nudge my boundary a bit? Let's be selfish and nudge the boundary...

then another nudge ...
then another ...

I don't think it necessarily begins with adultery in mind in every case. It's about CLEAR boundaries.

I think a predatory OP skilled at manipulation can move the boundaries of a WS who lacks self worth MUCH faster. Perhaps so fast the WS can't sort out the feelings and stop it. Again, NOT AN EXCUSE.

I hold to OWs 1 in 10 analogy. If my wife's OM wasn't who he was, I don't think the A would have happened. She may have been a fruit ripe for the plucking, but only a few guys would have had a ladder.

NCW

Are we on the wrong thread now? I am SO confused.

I love this thread.

My WW always received generous amounts of admiration from me. Often about her being physically attractive, but mostly about other things I admired about her. When I told her she was beautiful, she was skeptical and said, nah, I'm okay but not so great.

OM flattered her incessantly about her physical attractiveness. This is, I think, what won her over.

Being told by me that she was brilliant and witty and wonderful was okay, but when OM oohed and aahed over how amazingly great she looked, it sent her over the moon.

I still do not understand this very well. During adolescence, my W was considered good-hearted and mentally gifted, but went through an awkward phase during which she felt she was unattractive. She matured into an attractive woman, but now it's as if being told that she is brilliant does nothing for her, because she already believes it, but being told she is beautiful really gets to her, because she is not convinced of it.

If you must throw away your integrity to have your need for admiration satisfied, you are left as a pretty package with nothing inside.

Oh, I'm so disappointed in my WW.

GC

GC, you put into words exactly what happened with my FWH. I told him until the cows came home how wonderful of a husband, father, provider, Scout leader, friend, etc. he was. And he never believed me. Then she came along, and it was like a bee to honey. Her admiration of him sent his head into the clouds . . . er, the FOG!

I ask him now, "But I told you all of those things, too. Why didn't you believe me?" He says, "Because you are my wife, you are supposed to say those things to me." Duh, what???

Thankfully, due to IC, H realizes that all of that must come from within. Or he will never be 1)truly happy, and 2)a safe person in a committed relationship.

I think each of us must recognize that we are OK, we are whole, we are valuable, all by ourselves. If stripped of our spouse, of anyone loving us or telling us we are wonderful, we each need to know that we can carry on and live a happy, fulfilling life.

That is one of the many things I have learned.

SS

Hi...looks like I have some time before leaving for the day, so here it goes.

Pep, what I imagine has happened in my marriage and in so many others, is that the marital relationship started out largely as mutual "ego-stroking"....then the "feelings" come and I take that to mean I love this person! I believe I DID rely on him to "hold up" my self-esteem, and then the disillusionment phase sets in and for some people, this is where they get divorced. But I realize that I can't rely on him to give me my sense of self-worth and that "shortcut" to intimacy, which was temporary at best, is now gone and we have done nothing to work at a deeper longer-lasting intimacy. I go years and years in this state, and along comes OM and he learns these shortcuts, taking cues from me, and gives it all hes' got. So then these feelings come, and having not learned anything about deeper intimacy, I think, AGAIN, that those feelings mean "I LOVE THIS PERSON!"
WRONG AGAIN.
Ok...now, I understand what you are saying about how relying on your partner for your sense of self-worth is not the way to go. I think I did that to my husband too much, and after a certain amount of time (Which is different for everyone) I found that from someone else and went for it. But obviously, that kind of intimacy is not lasting.

Judging by the reactions of so many BS's, I would have to say that they also have perhaps relied too much on their spouse for their sense of self-worth. We upset them and they fell apart. Would that be fair to say?

What seems to upset most BS's is the thought that we don't "love" them anymore, and I am thinking they mean the "feelings" love. They say we have destroyed them to the core....so that means they put their self-worth in us?

So what needs to be done is for individuals to learn to be strong individuals and learn what deeper intimacy in a marriage is....????

You said that "love" is not enough to make any lasting relationship great (correct me if I misquoted)....and to be honest, that is something I don't want to accept, because it almost sounds as if you can't expect to have those "in love" feelings forever and it seems to me a marriage is pretty dull without them....and I didn't want to accept that is "just the way it is" so I went "elsewhere".

I guess at this point I just don't have a clear picture of what a "great marriage" looks like. I think for a lot of WS and BS, that is holding them back....they don't know what they are working towards....I know that is true in my case.
I think NCW has the right idea....teach your children these things before they get married. The common way is to let your kids "fall in love", look at them and smile and think to yourself "Ah, let them enjoy it while they can" which if you ask me is very cruel....we don't TELL them what to expect and we don't TEACH them how to have a successful marriage....well, gee, I guess that's because nobody ever taught us!

Guess this post is long enough....

Onlywords

I don't recall any marriages I am acquainted with starting off WITH the knowledge of what it takes to have a long-term "in-love" marriage...

All those types of marriages I am acquainted with had to learn that the HARD way !

Mine included....

Have faith.... just working this thread all the way to the (whatever it will be ) ending is part of your process.. and mine as well..

Please remember this .... you teach me as much as I teach you. We are all learning together...

Pep

PS .... What is the purpose of marriage anyway? It is probably NOT to "make us happy" as fairytails presume..... think....

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

onlywords, you have brought up most excellent questions. Questions to which I wish I had the answers, as well.

I guess what I learned about marriage as a child, from my mother, is what I DON'T want. My mother was married 5 times. She was definately a runner - when things got rough, she hit the road.

I suppose learning what NOT to do is not nearly as effective as what TO do. Hm, I learned one of several million things not to do . . . doesn't make me too relationship smart.

And when other people, whom I esteemed, told me over and over through the years what a wonderful M H and I had, I believed them. I thought, "Well, we are friends, we do communicate, could be better, could be worse." I let their opinions lull me into a false sense of security and marital happiness.

Ug. If only I'd began reading all the books I've read in the past 7 months 7 years ago. BUT, perhaps this is something so personal and close, that you just cannot see it crumbling until the roof actually drops on your head.

What should marriage be? I guess for me, it is sharing a friendship, with romance and passion included. Shake on a healthy dose of mutual respect, serve this dish on a plate of honesty and integrity and love, and I'd be fat and happy (not PHYSICALLY fat, for Heaven's sake!).

I guess I can't answer that question for the here and now for me, but I know what I envision in the future. I envision retiring with this man, having our grandchildren spend the night with us and spoiling them. Traveling around the world with him, and actually getting to see for myself some of the great places he has been over the years - on business travels and when he was in the Army.

I'm still not sure exactly how to make all of that happen, though.

Great thread.

SS

ps, I think you are definately dead-on with your comments on the BS falling to pieces because the WS's say they don't love them anymore. In an unhealthy M, I believe too much emphasis is placed on the other partner's feelings. That is why Dr. Harley's program here works so often, I think. The BS is shown a path that they can go down to achieve personal growth. They have the opportunities, through Plans A and B, the site, books, and the discussion forums, to become thier own individuals - independant of their WS. Personal growth, and learning about healthy relationships, is the most any BS can do to help both themselves and their M. IMHO.

Let's not get carried away, though. What rxn would you expect a BS to have when the WS says, "I don't love you any more, I don't want you any more, I don't find you attractive, and I want to be with OP."

Of course the BS is going to go to pieces! Part of marriage is making yourself vulnerable to your spouse and investing some of your self-esteem in the relationship. To suggest that being profoundly damaged when you're rejected and betrayed by the person you love and trust more than any other is somehow silly sounds like codependency nonsense to me.

GC

I was very blessed in that I had an excellent example of what a healthy, fulfilling marriage looks like in my parents. They didn't start out in life under "ideal" circumstances. Dirt poor, living in rural Kentucky, mom was sixteen and Dad had just been drafted into service for Vietnam. Yikes!

But what they had, was a strong commitment to work things out no matter what, and a strong natural compatibility in terms of shared interests and background. They spent 99.9% of their leisure time together. They worked on solving the problems that came up together. They didn't let having three kids interfere with their physical relationship. They weren't afraid to be affectionate in front of us and others. They met each other's key emotional needs. And frankly, there weren't a lot of opportunities for either of them to meet potential OPs, so their boundaries were protected by their life choices--dad worked in a career field that still has very very few women, and mom was a homemaker whose only interaction with other men was possibly the Schwans delivery guy.

I saw what a loving, committed long term marriage looks like. My parents flirted shamelessly with each other. I remember dad taking mom's acrylic paints and painting bullseyes on her ratty crafting sweatshirt in a ...um , sexually strategic location, and all of us laughing. I remember Mom leaning over the hood of yet another street rod while dad worked on it for hours on end, talking to each other. I remember a lot of them laughing and playing together in various ways. They encouraged each other's dreams and supported each other during their setbacks. They fought and forgave. They made each other better people.

My mom died last December from lung cancer, on her 51st birthday, two days before what would have been their 35th wedding anniversary. Yes, I've seen a truly good marriage. It's worth fighting for. It's worth any amount of work. It's worth it.

I gotta go now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Originally posted by onlywords:
Ok...now, I understand what you are saying about how relying on your partner for your sense of self-worth is not the way to go.

Whoa... Your spouse's opinion matters ... do not make the error of thinking I meant your spouses opinion of you is not important. They married us because they hold a high opinion of us.

It is the issue of balance I am trying to promote.

If your spouse has to be THE source of you feeling good about yourself it is exhausting and puts one person locked in the "giver" position and the other locked in the "taker" position.

And.... going back to the TA concepts Kat mentioned... one spouse becomes the "caretaker" or the "parent" in the paradigm, thus demoting the other to the "child" position.

The thing with receiving strokes from someone else to feel good about yourself... it is DISempowering ....

Balance.


Judging by the reactions of so many BS's, I would have to say that they also have perhaps relied too much on their spouse for their sense of self-worth. We upset them and they fell apart. Would that be fair to say?

Ummmmm......... not really. Here's why:

Betrayal of this level has a whole 'nuther dimention ....
More than one's self-worth is at risk with this betrayal .... this is a partial list of things the BS feels is threatened:

family
home
income
shared history
future dreams
security
a soft place to fall
a sense of what was "real" in their lives
trust in one's own ability to judge character /situations

.... and some self-worth too (jeeze, my own spouse thinks I am not worth keeping.... what's wrong with me?)

What seems to upset most BS's is the thought that we don't "love" them anymore, and I am thinking they mean the "feelings" love. They say we have destroyed them to the core....so that means they put their self-worth in us?

Like I said .... we all tie our self-worth up with the quality of our relationships to a certain degree ... but the difference between an affair and a marriage might be answered by this question ... " Do I lessen the strength of my integrity when I rely on this relationship to partly define who I am?"?

So what needs to be done is for individuals to learn to be strong individuals and learn what deeper intimacy in a marriage is....????

I love Schnarch's take on this... I am not going to explain it now... too long. I have tried in the past to convey Schnarch's ideas on this forum, and I always do it badly.

One could always reach to their higher power for guidance at how to achieve deeper intimacy.

Pep

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I guess this is where I am stuck. I do not want to ever experience the hurt, disillusionment, and devestation that I did on and after d-day. And, to recommit myself to my M means making myself vulnerable again. Right now, I feel I would rather live a lonely life than go through all of that again.

Logical? No. Fear-based decision? Absolutely. But I can only control me - being in a M means being vulnerable. I finally seperated myself from FWH, and now I'm not sure I want to open up again.

Just a bit of info to let you know where my opinion is coming from. Definately not from a healthy place, unfortunately.

SS

SpiderSlayer: It's all a part of the process, and "healthy" is more a direction than a destination, y'know? Just because you're not at this moment ready to take a flying leap into full intimacy with FWH doesn't mean you'll never get there.

Takes time. ((((SS)))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Kat72:
<strong> SpiderSlayer: It's all a part of the process, and "healthy" is more a direction than a destination, y'know? Just because you're not at this moment ready to take a flying leap into full intimacy with FWH doesn't mean you'll never get there.

Takes time. ((((SS))))) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah... what she said.

And, there is a certain level of post traumatic stress defensiveness to be expected... a sort of protective shield has been raised ... like on the alien space ships! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Recovery is HARD .... and it is what it is.

Pep

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Yeah . . . thanks, ladies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a sort of protective shield has been raised ... like on the alien space ships!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Cap'n! The shields are down ta 10%! I've diverted all the power Ah can, but Ah dinna think they'll hold! What do we do, Cap'n?"

"Let 'em fall, Scotty! Let 'em fall!"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK, ladies, I let my shields down. And it was wonderful. I believe H and I made VERY positive stops forward today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My H actually dispelled a LOT of the power that his and OW's SF had over me. A LOT. It was wonderful. Sorry if that is too much info, but I wanted you to know I was doing better.

Pep once told me that yelling at my garden I had planted wouldn't help it grow faster, and I want her to know I didn't forget that valuable lesson.

Thank you all so much for everything.

SS