{{{C&S}}} Thanks. I'm so glad your marriage is on the mend. I guess giving it a little more time can't hurt. I have no expectations now. Trying to accept the past and present.

The other element I'm dealing with is WH's working relationship with our daughter. It's terrible. He acts like an angry teenager and DD is the brunt of it. If we divorce, he'll be gone and DD will be able to separate her daily life from their relationship. I think distance would improve their relationship. As it is now our daughter is exposed daily to the A. Whether it's in front of her eyes or when he references his contact with OW. I'm torn up about this.

Well, I phoned him today. I asked if he has made plans for when he returns. He said no, asked what I meant. I said that as long as he has contact with OW we can't live together. I told him that I'm in pain and can't take any more humiliation. He said, "so you just want me to get out?" I said yes, if you're going to stay in contact with OW. He told me I'm blowing this thing way out of proportion. Then he calmly said we'll work something out. Said that we'll talk later.

That was at at noon. At 7 PM I was talking with DD and she had just seen him together with OW driving in OW's car. It's now 11 PM and I haven't heard from him....

I hadn't planned to do this but it hit me today as the right thing to do. First I wrote a Plan B letter, but then I thought that telling him now from a distance would be better than waiting for him to return. I can still give him a letter too. He might think I'm bluffing but I'm not.

Last Tuesday at the show a friend of WH's jokingly told a friend of DD's that it's the first time WH is being blamed for something he didn't do. But today he said that, although before this he was sure nothing was going on between WH & OW, now after seeing WH & OW together this week, he has no doubt that they're having an affair. I'm glad that their efforts to hide the A are failing.

haywire,

Thanks for posting. You've no idea how much you continue to impress me. Really.

As to your post:
IMO plan "B" is were you should be right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I don't think you could do a good plan A right now. (I sure know you don't WANT to).

However, plan B lets you still have options that just going ahead with a Divorce would not offer you.
So do the plan B and see what happens. Sadly, None of us knows for sure what will happen.
Lets take it one step at a time.

As to the letter.
I think it would be good for you to give him the letter as well.
You can put what you really want to say into it. (Without getting interrupted or feeling "rushed" while talking).
Also it is something HE can refer back to while you are in NC.
IN addition, It also shows you are serious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My advice is to post it to some of the plan B experts here....and let them assist you in refining your message.

Just post it as "Expert advice on a plan B letter needed" or something like that.
You should get plenty of input.
Sorry I'm not much on those. I leave that to those who "know".
We want you to do this Right!

But I will state that I am happy that you are at least willing to slow things down and give the process a chance.

Granted, I cannot guarantee that things will work out.....however, I can guarantee a poor outcome if you never EVEN try.
So good for you that your at least willing to give MBers a chance.
That's all anyone can ask for.

I have to go to bed now (YES Have too).
I took some medication. [actually I hope this post made sense]
In any case, If I left something out......I'll post it in the morning.

Also happy to hear that at least something about their A is making you smile (at least a little). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Good night and God Bless!

<small>[ August 09, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Thanks top rope! I think it's good that you and C&S convinced me to slow down a bit.

I don't have the letter with me now but will post it tomorrow. It's pretty short -- I can't say with certainty that I'm dedicated to working on the marriage, so I didn't include that.

Thanks again and hope you get a good night's rest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When reading all these stories on MB ... I sometimes try to imagine the mind of the WS.

This is how I see your H's mind.

He has lived a deceitful double life and has become 100% comfortable with betrayal.
This is not a good sign.

He is only bothered that he got caught. He may very well be a sociopath... which takes his selfishness to a dangerous level.

I think it is possible your very safety could be at risk when I read your story. I got goosbumps on my neck.

Watch your back.

Pep

Pep,
I think you're right. I don't know this person. Even though I've lived with him for 30 years. How terrible is that?

top rope, I'm sorry I can't honestly write a Plan B letter. I tried, but I can't honestly say that I want to work it out if he ends this A. And that's what Plan B letters say, isn't it? There have been other affairs and he's treated me so terribly through this one that I don't really have a will to make the marriage continue...

The way he has treated me and especially the way he's treated our daughter is sick. When she won an award for being the best in her age group in the state, well, that night we went to dinner to celebrate and he pushed her buttons until she was in tears. Every time we try to have a family get together he goads her until she's so angry she up and leaves or cries.

I read about narcissistic people and it fits him. I don't know, I'm no psychiatrist, but I do know he's a sick man. Possibly a narcissist sociopath. I read about narcissist parents and he treats her exactly as they're described. When she broke her ankle he pushed her to continue working, called her a "baby" until he realized it was actually broken.

Am I being too harsh? He's been with OW for 2 weeks and calls me tonight...says there's nothing that can't be worked out. He admits nothing. Just that I'm over-reacting.

He HATES a woman that is caring for the studio while he's away. A lovely young woman that ignored his advances. He HATES her. Thinks she's put all these crazy ideas in my head. No, this woman has put nothing in my head, but he can't seem to grasp that I'm now aware of his infidelity...He has to find someone to blame.

He'll return Sunday night. I've told him that we can't live together. He says he needs 48 hours to collect his things...

haywire, I think you absolutely are making the right decision about getting him out of there. Like Pep, I fear for your safety with him and always have. Like her, I get goosebumps when I read your posts and worry about you.

I don't think you should send him a Plan B letter. I think you should get him out of there and then decide if you even want to be married at all. Plan A and Plan B are designed to address unmet needs, not character issues. Plan B won't change his lifelong character of deceit, infidelity and cruelty. It will not change his personality and is not designed to do any such thing.

I do advocate taking a *little* time to move to divorce, but please don't develop any false illusions [I don't think you are] about the possibility of changing a man's character.

<small>[ August 14, 2004, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Haywire -

I feel the same way Pep and Mel feel. This guy turns my stomach, and the way he treats your DD makes me almost physically ill.

If you were my sister, and she my niece I would tell you to skip "B" and go directly to "D", but since this is a marriage building site I can't do that. (whoops just did)

At any rate I think you are right on about keeping him away from DD and out of your house.

haywire,

Its OK.
No need to apologize....at least not to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I've told you before...but its worth repeating ..IMO....you have been & are doing a fine job with dealing with this mess.

I have only made recommendations.....you know... advice.

However, I realize that it IS your life.
YOU know all the details and History behind your relationship with your H.
Therefore I accept that YOU have the best view of what is really going on.

Also as you appear to be both calm (as can be expected) as well as level headed, I respect the decisions that you feel are necessary for you to be both happy and healthy.

YOU have to do what's best for YOU and your situation. I TRUST your judgment!

Actually, My goal has always been for you to just NOT move too quickly (by following the natural emotions of hurt & betrayal) that ALL of us BS feel. (This "rushing" really does happen quite often).

However, it seems like this IS NOT his 1st or only A.
In addition, there is a lot more baggage then we here know about.

I only wanted you to give the MBers way a try.
However, if you've already made up your mind, then it never would work anyway (cause its toughest on the BS in any case.)

You may not have taken as much time as I would have liked, but you have at the very least given it its due consideration.

With that said, now that you are definitely going ahead with a separation and a Divorce, then I will support you and want you to get the best PLAN for yourself in that regard.

(Although, Perhaps just getting some real space from him as well as starting the D process itself, will be a wakeup call for you BOTH).
Cause truthfully it not like your going to be divorced in just a couple of weeks. So you'll still have time to see if he CAN change OR if you even care.. IF he DOES change.

Next, If your H is anything like the character you portray here, then I also am a bit concerned for your safety. Please take steps to insure your going to be safe.

I may be wrong, but considering how you feel about his personality ... perhaps you've just been Waiting for something like this to happen TO get away from him.
This doesn't sound like a healthy/loving marriage to me at all (& hasn't been for a long long time).
Perhaps you've just been looking for a big enough reason to leave. You know, the last straw kind of thing.

IN any case, continue to be pro active on your D (so you don't get screwed over in it either).

We here only want what's best for you!
IF this is what you've Decided is best, then we can ONLY try to assist you in making that transition to the next chapter in your life.

So what is your strategy NOW?
Does he move out?
Are you changing the locks?
Are you retaining a lawyer?
Have you even thought that far ahead, or has all your thinking been between deciding on trying to reconcile OR Divorcing?

Keep in mind, that we are here for you (hope we have been of some help).
Let us know how tomorrow goes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
till next time.......take care

<small>[ August 14, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Thanks Melody, weaver, top rope...

I really would have liked to give the MB way a chance but I don't think it's wise for me. Unless he willingly undergoes extensive therapy I don't think there's any chance for a healthy relationship with him.

It's hard to explain but as terrible as my H can be, he can also be very charming and lovable. What I'm realizing is that he can turn it on or off depending on what he wants.

top rope, I thought about your mention of the "last straw" and I think I used to feel that way, a long time ago. But as I got older I appreciated having him in my life. I lost most of my family, became more emotionally attached to my H. Maybe quietly "needy" is what I've been.

I explained away his rocky relationship with DD as his way of pushing her to toughen up, to grow and excel. I didn't agree with his methods but I thought he was acting out of parental love for her. Now I don't think he's acting out of love.

Before this A came to light we were in a basically friendly comfortable relationship. As he said last night, ours is the longest constant friendship in his life. He was content because he had his freedom and a comfortable homelife. I stupidly thought that he was happy with me and wasn't involved with other women.

Sorry I'm rambling...I guess I'm trying to sort out why I'm conflicted. I thought I loved him, but I need to accept that it was only his image I loved. I don't know who he really is. That's a scary thought after being with someone 30 years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what is your strategy NOW?
Does he move out?
Are you changing the locks?
Are you retaining a lawyer?
Have you even thought that far ahead, or has all your thinking been between deciding on trying to reconcile OR Divorcing?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's going to move out. Says he needs 48 hours to get his things together.

I'm not going to rush into divorce but I do have a plan. I started to answer in detail but decided not to because it's possible that someone who talks with him will see this.

Thanks again for all your help and advice...

haywire

You are on the right path. I just "stopped by" to offer support in your decisions. You are proceeding with an open mind, but with your eyes even more "wide open".

Keep in mind that you will have to fully process all that you are going through, whether you divorce or not, in order to have a "healed haywire".

Your inner strength shines through your writing, and you will survive all of this!

Best Wishes

SD

Haywire, just stopping by to say "hello", and to let you know I continue to follow your story. There is no chance of even beginning to save the M until your H dumps OW, and at the very least admits he's having an A.

Your strength and resolve shines through. We're here for you! CV

Hay W,

Thanks for responding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As far as your plans....if there is a chance anyone could be reading or passing things you post here to him.....by all means keep them to yourself.

My curiosity is in no way more important then your Life and Plans for it.

However, I would respectfully ask that you would keep us informed of your actions "after" they are already done and in the works so to speak.
We want to support you in any way in your progress toward healing yourself.

Hey, don't forget that you could benefit from continued IC yourself.
No matter how this all turns out there is going to be plenty of baggage to sort and sift through.

As to your impending D.
Go out and get some books on the subject...immediately.

YOU need to arm yourself with as much knowledge on the subject as possible.
Remember that knowledge is power.
In this case: the POWER to guide a fair settlement for your life.

When I was contemplating a D, I went out and got some books on the subject.
I know it sounds cheesy, but I picked up ones like "The complete Idiots Guide to Surviving Divorce" & "Divorce for Dummies". Also some others out like "How to be a great Divorced Dad".
My point is that they will give you all the basics of the entire Divorce process: Start to Finish.

Some of the stuff you'll already know and some will be quite the "eye opener".
Lots of tips and strategies as well.
Indeed, There are many things that I know I just never thought about or knew I could/couldn't do, until I read about them.

Now since your D is likely to be lets say "less then amicable".....you will of course need a Good (if not Great) lawyer.
However, YOU (yes, You haywire) need to understand and be in control of what is going on at each and EVERY step of the process.
This IS your life after all.......& I'm sure you no longer want to be lead around and told "what's best for you".

So take the time to get prepared for all the separate phases of the divorce, so that you WILL NOT be caught off guard, and you WILL BE in Control of the entire situation.

Keep in mind, that Your lawyer is there to work FOR you, NOT Tell you what to do.
Those decisions are for YOU to make. He/she knows the laws and just like on MBers here.... will give you his/her Best advise.
Ultimately though, the choices are yours........cause YOU have to live with them.

A good plan (in advance) is the best thing you can do to both protect and prepare yourself.
However, without the knowledge of what is going to occur....you can't even begin to make an effective Plan.
Don't make the mistake of always being reactive to what your H does.

It wouldn't surprise me at all....(since he's known about his activities for years)...if he doesn't already have a D strategy in place.
You may already have some major catching up to do.
So go get some reading material (even if its from the Public Library) and get started on arming yourself and making a real plan today!

If you don't think your completely comfortable with this entire process (As I don't think you've done this before have you?) ...then please consider going out and getting started on boning up on this info.
IMO its a move you need to make.

Wishing you success in whatever decisions you have made (Are Making) for yourself.
till next time .......take care <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ August 14, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>