orchid, am replying quickly as I am emtionally drained and just plain done in...

I meant no disrespect to Dewt with that thread title...

none at all..

we agreed to "label" our posts if we did not want the other to read them....

it is my thread on adjusting to Dewt's dating life...some personal thoughts and ruminations...

soemwhere to "dump" it, even unfocused and half-a$$ed...

my "not for you, Dewt" just lets him know that it is a private thread...

I am sorry if you were/are offended...I meant no offense....

Dewt certainly mentioned nothing to me...he seemed fine..

I did try to go change it, but suddenly MB will not let me edit...keeps telling me that it is an administrator or moderators function....

yet I edited it myself this afternoon...

look, the crux of it, no disrespect was intended...none was taken....

Dylan

Dylan,

I appreciate and respect your response. This is good if you 2 can communicate that effect in your thread. Sure wish it c/b expanded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for the explanation.
L.

Orchid,

My list had like one item on it...

Dylan's commitment to rebuild us.

That, alone, could have/would have made all the difference in the world to me. Sadly it ain't gonna happen.

I didn't like the 2x4's. They were judgemental when I needed understanding and reassurance and support to get myself on track. They put me into reaction mode when something else could have been more positive.

I have some time off this week. Part of it I will spend dealing with a to-do list that has been neglected too long. Part of it I will spend with Dylan and the kiddos.

There was no disrespect meant or taken by Dylan's thread. I won't deny a burning curiousity to understand her thinking better. So many months/years closed off to her thoughts and feelings... but that's her private stuff and I'm going to respect that.

dewt

another quick note...

where do we see us on vacations?

we've never had one, orchid...not in a decade together...

Dewt's work was seasonal...we spent most winters with never enough $$, and spring, summer and fall was taken up with Dewt's work....

a real vacation??...."vacation" as it is understood by millions??

it has never happened.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>dewt: ...My list had like one item on it...

Dylan's commitment to rebuild us.

That, alone, could have/would have made all the difference in the world to me. Sadly it ain't gonna happen. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Commitment requires cooperation. Not much more to say if that cooperation ain't there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>dewt: didn't like the 2x4's. They were judgemental when I needed understanding and reassurance and support to get myself on track. They put me into reaction mode when something else could have been more positive. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: No one ever does. There is a wise saying that says 'discipline is joyous but grievous but in the end yields peaceable fruit namely righteousness.' Those were what my father would repeat to me when I was a child. So even though I hated getting disciplined, I took it because I knew the ending result.

It works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>dewt:I have some time off this week. Part of it I will spend dealing with a to-do list that has been neglected too long. Part of it I will spend with Dylan and the kiddos. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: hm.... lack of vacation even in the simplist terms is not healthy for family. Take it from a workaholic. I was ok but H was not. Another reason why he had the A. OW promises wealth, health, $$ and travel. Of course it came with a stinky price tags (her spread legs - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , she even sent a pix of that, now that's a hard visual to get out of my head -gray hairs and all - YUCK).

Back to you situation. Think about local get aways, free and inexpensive places, picnics, walks, doing things together as a family. Simple and sweet. I see you maybe trying this now but if you haven't in the past, it may take a while for the family to get used to it.

My H is now traveling around the country (courier driving cross country) and noticing the beautiful sites. He calls all day and night telling me about what he saw....yea, he used to do that before but NOW he is saying how he wants us to share it with us and wished we c/b there with him. That's a biggie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>dewt: There was no disrespect meant or taken by Dylan's thread. I won't deny a burning curiousity to understand her thinking better. So many months/years closed off to her thoughts and feelings... but that's her private stuff and I'm going to respect that.

dewt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: This is a good attitude to have. Keep it up. I know Dylan stated the same. Now if u2 could apply the same technique in other parts of your R....maybe????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>dylan: where do we see us on vacations?

we've never had one, orchid...not in a decade together...

Dewt's work was seasonal...we spent most winters with never enough $$, and spring, summer and fall was taken up with Dewt's work....

a real vacation??...."vacation" as it is understood by millions??

it has never happened. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: I understand and empathize with you on this matter. You know this c/b a reason why there is sooo much harbored anger between the 2 of you, whether you realize it or not. Just a thought. I understand dewt may try to spend some quality family time with you all. This is good news and makes my heart glad.

Amidst all my chores today, I will be thinking of your upcoming family time together. Hope to hear it went well.

Enjoy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<small>[ August 10, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Sorry for my delay in replying.

Orchid, you said, "Commitment requires cooperation. Not much more to say if that cooperation ain't there."

To which I disagree. On these boards, you will find many who uphold their commitments regardless of the co-operation of their WS.

And I, sadly, am not one of them.

K was right. I gave up.

dewt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dewt:
<strong> Sorry for my delay in replying.

Orchid, you said, "Commitment requires cooperation. Not much more to say if that cooperation ain't there."

To which I disagree. On these boards, you will find many who uphold their commitments regardless of the co-operation of their WS.

And I, sadly, am not one of them.

K was right. I gave up.

dewt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dewt,

Maybe I need to clarify.... commitment requires cooperation to achieve the best results. When there is commitment by only one spouse, then a solid M recovery can't really happen.

Many come to MB commited to keeping the Ms. Long term, this generally does not last. Even w/o the D, many a BS get tired and plain tuckered out. I know I did.

You say you gave up. What are you willing NOT to give up?

JMHO,
L.

dewt...

are you really going out and seeking other women for socialization and or more??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also are you going out by your self and drinking to the point that you need to use a cab to get home...

are you really??

why????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK

oh my gosh......

seeing it stated that way, ark, makes it look worse.....

I should not answer for him, and haven't addressed this thread because I did not want to be accused of "blowing him out of the water" again...I have waited since sunday for him to come and post his new status...our new status...

please understand though....

the cab incident stems from MY asking him on his way out the door last Friday night, knowing he might be drinking, to be careful...that if he found himself inebriated, to make certain he would get a cab and safely home...

this is not something he is doing recreationally every weekend or anything...I would not want you or others to receive the wrong impression.....

as for women and socializing, I will respectfully leave that issue for him to discuss, should he choose to .......

it is still important (as with my earlier response to K), that no one misjudge either...

he is not going out, getting drunk alone and taking cabs home every weekend....

I may be in the wrong for answering a post addressed to him, but since your impression may have come from something I've posted, I feel a need to clarify.....


Dylan

<small>[ August 12, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: soulloss ]</small>

soul-loss

I did NOT judge anything or anyone...

I asked a question to seek information....

seeking clarification and or truth is NOT judging...

God, how I abhore that word and more it's "psycho-babble-biblical warped new definition"....

I asked a question......
a simple question
in which there can be many answers...
I prefer the true one...

ARK

Hi dewt, as I said in Dylan's thread, I haven't been to the board in ages and ages and happened to stop by today and see your posts. I really don't know what to say, except that I'm deeply saddened to see the state of things for you guys. I'll say the same thing I said to Dylan, that it affects me so since the two of you were so important in keeping me sane.

I've read thru both you and Dylan's most recent posts. Even though my first thought is to say "Listen to K!!!", but I do have some recognition of where the two of you are at. Now, it really doesn't matter who slept(or is sleeping) with whom. That's just a symptom of the real problem. I can identify with the feelings you have expressed as well as where Dylan is.

You were right, *all* marriages shouldn't necessarily be saved. Maybe yours is one of those. You have been waiting for a long time and Dylan still confronts horrific demons. It's obvious, however, that at a very deep level, there is still a strong connection and love between you two. You've been thru a lot of tragic and difficult times and this is another of those.

I'm not going to try to tell you what to do. Dylan is in a deep, dark place and desparately needs to start healing. You could continue to stand by to provide support, but this may be in a place only she can find her way out of.

Regardless of the outcome, I am still impressed by the way you two are dealing with each other in this crisis. I don't read hurtful, derogatory comments. I see two people trying to find a way out and save themselves. I wish that you could do that together, but I think I really do, kinda at least, understand where you are both coming from.

with much love, brother,

Orchid, you said, "When there is commitment by only one spouse, then a solid M recovery can't really happen."

Bingo. And for the last who-knows-how-many-years, Dylan and I have been swapping roles in this regard. And recovery hasn't happened.

Tired? I don't know if that is the right word. Hopeless, worn out, despairing... these are closer. I needed to know if there was ever going to be commitment. I'm not stupid. I know my patterns. I'm 34 now, and while not grey and wise, I can still see things coming. And this time, at the very least, I'm going to admit defeat before going out and doing something stupid. No more lofty ideals that I'm going to blow all to hall.

At the very least, this time I'm going to be straight up about it: I can't take it anymore. I can't do it alone anymore. The thought of another half-assed recovery attempt fills me with more overwhelming dread than ending it altogether.

And I have a hole in me that (goes way beyond Dylan) and if I don't patch it, fill it, distract from it, whatever, I will crumble again, fall apart again... and no matter what, THAT will not happen again. No matter what...

What am I not willing to give up? I dunno. I'm not willing to give Dylan up, but I suppose I have no choice. There's lots of things I don't want to give up, but I will have to learn to. What am I not willing to give up. I can tell that's a deep and profound question and one that I will have to think about a great deal more.

Ark, yes. I am dating. (see above paragraphs)

And as for getting home, well, I'm not much of a drinker, so it doesn't take much for me to get to a point where I'll leave my keys in my pocket. Like 2 drinks and I'll refuse to drive, even if I feel 'fine'.

DeWayne,

I personally think that ours is one of the marriages that should be saved. But it ain't gonna happen unless BOTH of us are on the job. I don't have the stregnth, skills, fortitude, self-discipline or will to face this alone.

And ya, there's a deep connection there. And real, deep love. But it's not enough. Not to maintain and heal a marriage. There needs to be more- at the very least a commitment to begin the process.

I wish I had it in me to stand by and be supportive and be firm and resolute in my faith, but I cannot. I'm facing issues that I'm simply (read complicatedly) ill-equipped to handle.

I understand Dylan's position. I'm hurt and desperately saddened that she is 'done' with me, but really and truly I cannot blame her. And ya, there's even some anger, resentment and bitterness in there, but it's hard to go waving those sticks when I had such a hand in developing this situation in the first place.

As to why I'm still posting here, I dunno. Technically, I'm not trying to save our marriage anymore. I guess that also is something I have to think about further.

dewt

BTW, my real name is John. I think dewt is dead.

Dewt (John)

Give up on your marriage if you have to for now, but don't give up on yourself or on Dylan.
(I know that you won't - give up on yourself or her) Maybe the marriage building needs a break for now, and the soul building needs to take precedence for awhile, for you both.

Put the marriage in Gods hands for awhile and see what He does with it.

I really wish you wouldn't date though, that is piling pain on top of pain, and you know it. It is the ABSOLUTE worse thing you could do right now for yourself, for Dylan and for the poor girl who you will drag into this. Don't do that to anyone OK, nuf pain out there already.

Weaver

One last post, deut:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thought of another half-assed recovery attempt fills me with more overwhelming dread than ending it altogether. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It should. I figure you've got a half-assed one, a few 1/16-assed ones, a couple 0.001-assed ones---but I'd love to see a whole-assed recovery attempt.

This would be done under the counseling of someone who is competent: Harley's or Penny. It would mean both you and Dylan would participate---but the level of participation in meeting each other's needs would probably be pretty low (you'd be undoing the lovebusting behaviors). I still see better than average possibilities for this to succeed IF you attempted it---but I see so much sabotaging behavior from you (dating?? WTF!), and Dylan would have to say "yes" to putting some skin into this too.

The bottom line is that I haven't seen anything but lip service from you. No real concrete action. No establishment of a consistent track record of new marital behavior. This isn't a 2x4---it's my observation of your situation. Honestly, I've never felt that you've really tried---all I hear out of you is excuses.

You aren't my kid, and I'm not talking about cleaning your room. So what's your excuse??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
And whatever it is, it doesn't justify your current path.

dewt...

dating while living with your spouse...
is a hostile act...

It is unfair to your spouse
your children (talk about skewed messages and scaring them)
YOU
and the person/s you date...

I implore you to again ground yourself in Gods Grace and seek peace..

you are orchestrating chaos over which you have total control...

that is not judgement
that is not a 2x4
that is someone begging you to cease such hurtful behavior...

nothing more
nothing less

ark

This will be my 3rd attempt at this post.

I will no longer try to talk talk I can't walk. Everytime I fall apart, or fail, the tattered remains of my true self image get kicked about some more. And ya, I do know I do it to myself. I know. I know. I do get it. I see it. I get it. I know.

And so, why don't I do something about it? Doesn't a person about to commit suicide know it's the wrong thing to do? But ultimately, something is just so overwhelmingly overwhelming that it seems like the only option. Well, I've survived too many horrors to actually attempt terminating my life. But I'm pretty creative and awfully good at pulling other kinds of triggers.

It ends up being me no longer able to 'take it' and in one way or the other doing something extreme and unwise. Anything. Anything at all to stop these feelings. (anything excluding violence, verbal or physical to another person)

Weaver, I don't know what you mean by 'give up'. On me? Well, over the past 7 months I've really started to get some of my shi... stuff together. I know because I won't give up, I will (yes, with the help of much counselling) be whole and healthy and successful and able to deal with adversity in a more stable and proactive manner. And maybe then I can start some healing.

On Dylan? She's intelligent and stubborn. She will find her own clarity and when she's ready, she will act on it. Give up on her? No, but I am not a part of it either. I tried to be... wanted to be... but I'm in no shape to be. Haven't been.

On us? Yes. I've given up. (see below)

K, you would love to see a whole-assed recovery attempt? Ya well, me too. I can't do it alone. And I don't mean to imply that I have been doing it alone. I have tried and proven that I'm quite incapable of doing it alone. Any attempt would have to be by both of us.

I am aware I've given her precious little reason to want to make that attempt. I'm not asking to be excused for my behaviour- regardless of any explanation or reason for it.

On to the dating issue...

Ark, you said, "dating while living with your spouse... is a hostile act..."

Ya I know. I know ALL about that.

But it's over. I've been told to move on. I have a HUGE hole in me and now I know that she's really gone... And if I don't fill it, I'll die. I'll fall apart again... I can't... Without something else to think about, I'll be focused on that wound, staring into it every day. I just can't take that. No way. Not again.

And it's the worst dichotomy... either hurt her or hurt me... and I hate hurting her... I've done enough already...

But I can't live in this 'place' anymore...

John

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>ark^^:
dewt...
dating while living with your spouse...
is a hostile act...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: This is a true statement. Except one crazy thought keeps going through my mind. Did Dylan tell Dewt she was moving back to be in the house for the children but not for him?

Is she really playing the role of a spouse or roommate?

Biblically if she chooses to withhold her marital dues, she is also at fault if he steps out of the M.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>ark^^:
dewt...It is unfair to your spouse
your children (talk about skewed messages and scaring them)
YOU
and the person/s you date......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: The act and consequences are unfair to all, except the one who is suppose to be the spouse but chooses not to be.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>ark^^:
dewt...you are orchestrating chaos over which you have total control...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ark is correct about this. Dewt, you realize I am NOT sanctioning an A by either you or Dylan. However, I do not believe you are in control of this situation. You need to be but your actions show otherwise. If you are in control and act this way..... well let's just say in other places, there w/b some surgery going on.


JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did Dylan tell Dewt she was moving back to be in the house for the children but not for him?
Is she really playing the role of a spouse or roommate?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was coming back to fill her role as Mother. It was made clear that she was not coming back to work on the marriage.

That being said, I viewed it as an opportunity to 'exhibit solid marital behaviours' and try to show her that I was serious about learning to be a good Husband.

Over the three weeks that she was away, I was assailed by an unending barrage of memories of hurtful things. Not just from the affair, but (as JL pointed out in Jan/Feb and others who know us can attest) also from longer ago.

I don't want to get blasted for whining about unmet needs, but I haven't felt that she's 'wanted' me in so long I can't even remember. And there's a rejection in there that I just can't face anymore.

These feelings snowballed in me while she was away. And going out didn't help. Turning down offers and chances to flirt did not make me feel more powerful, or proud of my behaviour... it made me feel desirable. Feeling desirable spurs me on to try to fill that position. Feeling unwanted makes me feel... er... unwanted and useless and then comes hopelessness and despair.

As for her 'role', well she's taking very good care of us over here. It's a real pleasure having her company. I just need more. (and I'm NOT talking about sex)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Biblically if she chooses to withhold her marital dues, she is also at fault if he steps out of the M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">'Fault' could be bounced back and forth between us so much and so fairly that it seems pointless to even go there.

Bottom line: Our marriage is over. It was alive as long as there was someone left who believed in it. But the moment both of us agreed it was over...

That being said, I don't feel like I'm acting in a particularly Christian manner. Adultry is a valid reason to end a marriage but I don't feel like God is particularily impressed with me right now.

Cause this isn't really fair. This is painful for Dylan and I should just take that as a sign and recommit to the marriage. I went this route with Mary though, and don't want a repeat of that.

I told Dylan that if this became too difficult for her that we should talk. I don't want her feeling like she is trapped in this situation. If she outright asked me to stop, I think I would. Even if that request was not tied to a commitment to work on us.

No. I'm definately NOT in control of the situation. I know I'm not thinking clearly or acting sanely. I'm frantically trying to get some sort of something stabilized in my head and heart. I'm trying to get Dylan out of my head and get my focus off her. I have to stop wanting her so bad.

John

Dewt -

You are giving up on yourself, and Dylan - by going to the bar and being with other women to fill the hole inside of you. You both need to take this time to heal yourselves, and Dylan knows this but you are choosing to mask your wounds instead of heal them.

The marriage rebuilding should be put on hold for awhile, until you both come to terms with what you have done to yourselves, to each other and to your marriage. And if you both really want to end the marriage, (which I don't think you do) then do it in the right way. "Earn your way out" as Dr. Phil says, and give Dylan the chance to do that also.

You have always been one of my favorites here, with your sweet kindness and intelligence. But by dating other people and falling into that type of desparation to fill the hole inside of you is very upsetting - to me as well as the other people on this board who care about you, and don't want you to bring any more pain & choas into your life as well as into anyone else's. It just makes no sense Dewt, why you would do this.

deut:

Stop making excuses. Ask Dylan to join you for professional MC.