LL,

I am glad that you didn't have an outburst. If you had it would have given him more power.

I have to say though, with my new found peace of mind, I probably would have "accidentally" dropped him new phone in the garbage disposal. I think that would have made a nice crunchy sound.

My H does that sort of thing to me all the time now. That's why I can't even talk to him. He is trying to get a reaction. He'll even say something nice just to make me feel nice and when I'm comfortable he'll say or do something completely inappropriate.

I think they just want to know they can still hurt us and that we're still wrapped around their finger. By not reacting I think you did the right thing. Shows him that he doesn't control all of your emotions.

LL,

I'm very concerned about you. Just reading this makes me physically ill and I cannot imagine having to live through this. I know that you are a very strong woman and that you are trying to do the right thing, but this has got to be so painful and I'm not even sure if one can even recover from this. I'm so sorry and I really don't know what to say. I just hope that you are going to be okay.

Hugs!

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> He's also made statements back a few months ago about how he likes that he can make her "scream and crawl across the floor" or somethinhg to that affect that really cut through my heart, and he didn't get why I took that so poorly either.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Oh my frikin fraken , geez. I hardly know what to say. Yes, I do! This guy is a PUKE! I wouldn't have even resorted to the disposal. I would have smashed the damned thing in his smirking face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Of course he did this on purpose! Plan A... this would have plan D'ed me. And I would have let EVERYONE there know exactly why. There comes a time when you have to stand up for your own personal dignity. He refuses to even allow you that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by lordslady:

Okay, remind me AGAIN why I'm trying to stand up for this marriage???

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry .... no can do.

I don't believe that what you have qualifies as a marriage anymore.

I see nothing but more pain and disrespect headed your way.


Pep

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Sorry for being so harsh...but... in all my years here I have rarely seen such a blantent display of total disregard of a BS's feelings and dignity. Divorce this guy... with a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

LL,

I personally would rather be VERY alone(not to be confused with lonely)than be with a sick man like your WH.When you mentioned that other post that was from a long time ago("crawling across the floor")GAG I remembered that it was your WH that might just have a very deep disrespect of you and maybe even women in general.I'm not sure but what he did warranted a good rebuttal,one way or another.Not numbness.

LL,I think you are numb and rightly so.But when you cannot even react to what is a blatant disrespect and callousness to you then you have to ask yourself,why is it that I allow that I let my WH treat me this way?

You have been at this as long as I have and I would not be driving anywhere with a man that hurt me and disrespected me in that way.Your sig line says that you are in plan LL but what on earth does that mean?? If your plan is all about you then it's time to up the ante.No more allowances please!

O

I am so sorry to hear about what you saw. I don't know if I could have handled that!! I probably would have thrown the camera accrross the room and kicked him out right then. You did a good job restraining yourself. I wish I had that strength! Why is it that we want to know all the details even though we know it will crush us? I want to know so badly what the OW looks like...is she prettier than me...skinnier....bigger breasts??? Why can't I stop thinking about all that?? Ugghghghghg! MEN!!!!

LL,

I am new and have not responded to you before, but I felt compelled to answer you because I have similar experiences relating to OW & her appearance, etc., etc. I'm hoping I can help you feel a little better.

First, let me just 2nd (or 3rd or 100th) the other posters in saying that you don't need someone like this in your life. You're above him in so many ways, so don't even concern yourself with what he is doing w/ or w/o OW. Believe me, the novelty of OW will wear off and he will miss you terribly and long to touch you, whether he ever admits it or not.

Also, bear in mind that what he has w/ OW is not what you would want in a R or a M. He clearly does not respect her or what they share together or he would not have done those things. His disrespect for her will only get worse as time goes on and his "taker" comes out. Let OW have him and that junk - she deserves it.

Now, let's talk about you. I don't want to get into a lengthy explanation, so let's just say that I know exactly how you feel. It hits you hard in the gut and it sticks in your brain. I have felt it, but I feel better about it now. Some of the things I did was to think about these things: (1) Any man that is worth having is going to find you 10 times sexier and more appealing than the OW because they are attracted to the whole you - inside and out. A real man will feel more lasting passion and real love for someone he respects and admires. (Not to mention that you are beautiful.) (2) Consider the source. Consider how much your H's opinion is worth - not much right now. The way he is acting is beneath you. He is not a good catch right now, so who cares who he finds attractive. Same w/ OW - attention from her would not be flattering to a quality, truly attractive man. (3) Look around at the women you know - or even famous women. There are plenty of non-busty women that who are considered "hot" by most men. Real beauty and sex appeal is not always obvious from a picture.

Well, this may all sound dumb to you, but I hope it helped in some way. You are a beautiful and dignified woman. I admire how well you reacted and I think you were brilliant not to show your H that this even bothered you. One day you will have an amazing man in your life who will look at your H and think ... "now there's the world's biggest fool - his loss, my gain."

You're a class act, Lordslady. There may come a time when WH is "screaming and crawling" away from OW and when that time comes you will probably already know what is that you want to do.

I thought I was going to get through a pretty regular sad MB week w/o breaking down until I saw this. God, I cried my eyes out for you. This is one thing I won't forget easily. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

At any rate, your beauty shines through the screen Lordslady and it's an incredible sight. Thank you. {{{{{Lordslady}}}}} KB

Whoa! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Much more heated topic than I'd intended. I just wanted to blow off some steam at the stupidity of painful things sometimes. Lots of posts to make me think!

Orchid,

Yes, at least I did see what OW looked like for real, before seeing parts I didn't need to see, so that does help.

Drucilla,

He would not have ‘accidentally’ shown that photo to his D or mother, right?

Frankly, I'm not sure. Well, probably not his DD (though one of his gifts to her--given in secret--was a carton of smokes. Not sure what he's thinking anymore.)

but are you sure you want him back?

Sometimes yes; othertimes no.

Ivoryivy,

He is trying to get a reaction.

I think my WH's mission in life, with me and with everyone, is to get a reaction. I've never understood why, though.

Kati,

but this has got to be so painful and I'm not even sure if one can even recover from this.

Painful, yes, but probably no more so than some other things that have happened over the years. It'll probably just make me more numb.

Pep,

Think I already knew that answer before I posted. I just keep thinking maybe I should hold on and see if he becomes human again in a year. I take seriously that God hates D, and the "for better; for worse" stuff (though even I don't believe God intended A to be the "for worse".)

Cherise,

rarely seen such a blantent display of total disregard of a BS's feelings and dignity

I suppose you're right here. I'm starting to worry that I am really mentally screwed up, because I'm so used to it I don't even notice most things as a big deal. (This one was a little bigger, though.)

O,

I remembered that it was your WH that might just have a very deep disrespect of you

I have actually asked myself this before, "Does WH hate me? Is there some deep-seated anger or hatred for me that he can't admit?" I've even mentioned to him before the A that some of the looks or things he says to me make me think he loathes me. Then he'd do something totally cute and I start thinking I'm stupid for thinking it.

when you cannot even react to what is a blatant disrespect and callousness to you then you have to ask yourself,why is it that I allow that I let my WH treat me this way?

As I continue reading the reponses, I'm actually starting to worry that I'm totally cold emotionally and that I'll never be normal again. It's good not to shock when one's dad is in the hospital in ICU (in December) and mom and sis are freaking out. It's good when WH comes home with a huge hole in his leg, bleeding all over, with insides showing on the outside not to freak out until the ambulance comes (motorcycle accident 3 years ago).

Perhaps it's NOT good not to freak out over this--but I am numb. What if I never get my emotions back? I think they've gone away over time.

Your sig line says that you are in plan LL but what on earth does that mean??

Means I s*ck at both plans (though I've done pretty good at Plan A once WH moved out.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

TR,

Why is it that we want to know all the details even though we know it will crush us?

I don't know. It's like why did I keep looking at the screensaver of the ta-ta's when I knew who it was. Why did I have to analyze it? I asked WH right after he slept with OW the first time about how she was built. Why? I don't know.

He gave me a blow-by-blow description of her naked body...I could have drawn her from what he told me. And I listened...

It's like I almost need to prove to myself that I'm not worth having, and by knowing that she's younger, and bustier (by far) and slender (though I am, too), and curvier overall than I am, I do a great job telling myself that I have nothing to offer.

It's the pity-party thing that I hate about me right now. I do better and then something stupid happens that sets me off. Overall I see myself as intelligent (though very scatter-brained), able to take care of my own business, a moral and decent Christian, and fairly good at what I do for a career. But men are visual. All the above isn't going to do it if the looks ain't there!

True, I am more at peace now than when WH was at home. But people can tell me until I'm blue in the face that it's better living the rest of my life alone if that's what it takes. I do not want to be alone forever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I keep busy now to keep from being lonely. I have a lot of things to do--more things than I have time. But that won't be forever. Then what?

LL

ll,

Lorda mercy...if he wants to come over for the evening...and he suggests bringing a movie....HIDE THE VCR! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<gag>......<shudder>

committed

LL, you wont be alone forever. Dont let fear be the only thing that keeps you from moving on. You cannot find better till this bum is gone.

I think we all become a bit desensitized after going through so much trauma and drama. The way this man is treating you, I'm sure it's a natural defense... if you didnt get used to it, you'd be REALLY crazy.

I have to think of soldiers going through a war, the things they must have to get used to. 'Normal' will come back to you, once you get away for a while. But not while you're still on the battlefield. Try not to worry about that. Please take care - Dru

LL, before I post I want to say that I am on my 3rd glas of vino. I SWEAR I don't have a problem, except for my spelling at the moment. Fifteen yr. old son s a real pain in the A$% at the moment, and god only knows what it would have been like if H left for oW. Thn again, mybe DS would have felt so sorry for his mm he would have been nice!

Anywho, now I can't remember what the heck I wanted to respond to in your post. Your H is a dumb#$%. OK, that's profound! What does it say about your H's feelings about OW that he is flashing her nude pics around via is cellphone. PLEEEEAAAASSE! I too remember the Crawling post you wrote. Let me just puke this good vino I've been drinking right now! Honey, if your very stupid WS wants to act like a jerk, let him. I swear, you will have a good life. If he can't change is loserish self, then you do not want him. I'm telling you, YOU deserve better than him. You've got to start telling yourself that. Write it on a piece of paper 2o times a night if you have to. Your H is so far into fogland it would take the space shuttle to bring him back. Decide what you are worth, and what you want.

OK, I'm babbling! Right now I just want to smack the SH** out of your H. Maybe that can be my new calling. To smack all the really jerky WSs. That way the BS won't have to worry about depleting their little lovey banks.I better stop writing now! Sorry for my vino induced post. Just know you have the class baby, not the booby "B"! CV

CV, I think I could FEEL you wobbling back and forth on your chair as you typed that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

(Maybe I need to break into my wine stash.... I don't think I could force anything else into my stomach. I just took my 15-yr-old blue-haired DD and her boyfriend for a belated bday dinner at Outback. I'm stuffed.)

-------------------------------------------------
More news:

My sis just called me. She was here for part of the celebrations last night. Her first question:

"Whose b**bs were those on WH's camera phone?"

Uh...whose do you think?

I didn't realize he was showing everyone his phone. (Not the action clip, just the phone which of course has the nude screensaver.)

While she admits she loves him (he's been like an older brother to her since she was 12), she thinks he's off his rocker, too.

She was unimpressed at showing off the b**bs, snapping pictures of all of us like it was old times, showing off his new car, etc. He even said to her family when they left, "You'll have to come see my new apartment sometime."

????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ?????

It's w-e-i-r-d!
---------------------------------------------

And even more--this came spontaneously from DD tonight at dinner:

She didn't ask for the smokes her dad bought her. He took off with her shortly after he arrived last night. She wasn't sure where they were going. They went to Walgreens. He asked her if she needed anything. She said, "no". He came out with 2 cartons of cigarettes--one for him, and one for her. (Uh good job, WH. She actually told me last week she was trying to quit and I commended her.) She was even confused.

And then he told her he might be going to Paris on a vacation, and pointed to his pocket. (meaning, "I have money."??) That scares me. He doesn't travel alone. Not that he can't, but it seems odd. I'm afraid he'll go over and do something nuts like disappear. DD says I'm getting paranoid now. She's probably right. I tend to go off on stupid tangents.

(A friend of mine once used to tell me I was going to worry myself stupid.)

And finally, I guess she made the mention to him about some drink that her boyfriend's mom makes her (another story entirely) that has coke in the name, and he made some comment about trying the real thing, it's great.

?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ???????

I know he's been dabbling in occasional recreational meth, but now I'm starting to wonder if he's not doing more serious drugs than I suspected. I don't see the $$ coming out of his bank account though. I only see a lot of booze being purchased.

It's all just getting really wacky. What to do? Plan A? Plan B? Plan D? Plan LL?

I'm worried about WH, but am also worried about our future if the child support ceased, DD's safety if she rides with him again, and him doing something stupid and crucifying our family financially.

Lots to think about. Need to redirect my thoughts, I can see. Need to do some Bible reading about trusting God again tonight.

Thanks for all your input thus far!!

LL

Have you ever heard the analogy regarding frogs and a pot of water? Stay with me here.

If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water it will swim and struggle like crazy to get out.

If you put him into the water at room temperature and slowly bring up the heat, he'll leisurely swim around until he cooks.

Your H has gone from the most insensitive man I could imagine, to one dangerous to your children. You must protect them from him. Dabbling in recreational meth? Suggesting cocaine is great?

Talk to social services, see a lawyer, do whatever it takes to keep your kids from that influence if you can. Divorce is your decision, but your kids well being is your obligation.

I will actually include you in a prayer tonight for God to give you the strength of objectivity here.

LL, I agree with Binder. Your H is bad news, sister. I don't know how you can let him be alone with your kids. Your son is leaving for college this month, is that right? What's he think of all this?

GC

I don't know how you can let him be alone with your kids. Your son is leaving for college this month, is that right? What's he think of all this?

I should clarify: it is rare that WH is with the kids alone. My son has had his drivers license and a car for 2 years now drives himself everywhere. And as for what he thinks, except for a common bond of video games, son and WH have never really been close. They don't understand each other. Son is a lot like me--more an emotional, thinker-type.

Daughter is a little different situation because she doesn't have a car, but since WH moved out in February, she's probably only been with him a couple times alone in a car.

WH did stay with the kids for 3 days in May when I went to Florida on business. I asked him to. I don't think they drove anywhere that time.

And yes, I WAS concerned last night when I found out DD took off with WH. I thought he was just taking her to his car to show her or tell her something. When I came downstairs from wrapping her gifts was when everyone said they left together.

Generally he spends no time with his kids, and I don't push the issue. He's not kept them since he moved out, he's not even taken them to dinner. He's stopped over a few times to see them, but that's it (other than the 3 day stay in May).

As for the drugs (and I'm worried now that maybe I don't take this serious enough because I'm numb or denying):

Meth (and rarely, coke) he has dabbled in on occasion for years. It's incredible how it's spread through the entire automotive trade, from the mechanics to the service managers, etc. I hate it, he knows that. But I also know he used, and I could tell when he did because he was running around cleaning like crazy at 2am. And then about 24 hours later he'd crash and be grumpy beyond belief for a day. And then a couple months later he'd do it again.

(Just for the record, so none of you think I'm that wacko, I will admit to partaking in an occasional joint in my younger years and killing many brain cells with booze, but I NEVER touched anything stronger than that. It scared me!)

And he jokes about stupid things just to get a rise out of people, so am not sure if the coke was a joke or a serious statement. The strange thing was that DD thinks he sounded serious, and she's quite the prankster herself. So I'm taking it more seriously.

I don't feel a need to get social services involved in our own family (in fact am trying to keep them UNINVOLVED with my DD) because he really spends almost no time with his own kids.

I have considered involving social services in the situation with OW's baby girl if I ever am faced with hard evidence of her being at risk of abuse or neglect. I truly feel concern for the little thing. Social Services won't do much about his use of colorful adjectives at her, and I don't have hard proof of anything else except the purchase of a lot of booze. They may be doing their serious partying on the weekends that the baby's father has custody of her.

I truly do love this man (okay, I'm insane--but I do) and I hate what he's doing to himself. He's over the edge. I didn't come into this thinking I should D, but I do wonder more and more if I should either start that paperwork or the paperwork for a legal separation for protection's sake. (But then I ask myself if I'm just getting all worked up and being paranoid.)

I know we could D and still get remarried if things turned around and I hadn't moved on. But I'm also afraid that filing might throw him into a more deadly spiral than what he's already on, if that's possible.

I've asked for God's guidance in this. Sometimes WH will do something really considerate and I'll think "that's my sign--I'm supposed to hold on". But other times I'll get something the other way like him being totally hateful and accusing, or the porn pics on the phone and I wonder if those are really my signs.

LL

Binder,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you ever heard the analogy regarding frogs and a pot of water? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have heard that. (Seems an awful thing for some scientist to do to the little green guys, though.)

It's the same analogy that JHC used during my first counseling session with her when I was trying to figure out how or why WH was doing what he was doing and she explained that he got sucked in slowly, and before he knew it, like the frog in the boiling water, it was too late and he was cooked.

Okay, so once the frog is cooked, it's too late for him. What about the WH? Can he ever get "uncooked" again?

LL

Ah…let’s pull out that dusty crystal ball again. Uh oh, it’s looking pretty murky again.

Ya know, me thinks no matter what direction his MLC (an assumption I know) takes him, you’d think he’d realize he’s living in a one bedroom apt. commune. I personally think he needs to have an MRI to determine if any grey matter exists in the ole cranium.

This board seems to have several examples of turnarounds from the most resolute WS. It’s what keeps hope alive for my marriage. Unlike your WH, my WW has latched onto a prominent physician/pilot who whisks her off to exotic locales. I think it’s Asia this month. O.K so he’s married; a small detail they have to work out along with our pesky marriage.

Your hubby may realize the depths of his stupidity one day. Question is, will you be there. How well do you know yourself? Can you exist in a marriage remembering his home made pornography? IMHO you need to distance yourself from that source of distress. If ever a call for “tough love” was required, this is it. (I guess I should read that book first before being so cavalier with those terms)

It’s difficult to gauge a situation completely given the brevity of these posts and having to accept everything at face value. I find I have access to some very skilled, bright and insightful friends that I can tell all the ugly details to and get some objective opinions and advice. I hope you have someone as well. At times we need another set of eyes on the pot to see if it’s time to get out or not. Your commitment is astounding; I hope it’s not in vain.

You strike me as an articulate, bright woman. I feel somewhat reassured regarding your children’s situation given your influence and the scant time WH spends with them.

Now it’s almost midnight here, my guess is you must be on the west coast to be posting this late. I’ve got two active kids to entertain again all day tomorrow, so I’m hitting the sack. Plus I have to say a prayer for some lady I’ve never met who had a hellish time at her daughter’s birthday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>I truly do love this man (okay, I'm insane--but I do) and I hate what he's doing to himself. He's over the edge. I didn't come into this thinking I should D, but I do wonder more and more if I should either start that paperwork or the paperwork for a legal separation for protection's sake. (But then I ask myself if I'm just getting all worked up and being paranoid.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear LordsLady,

I'm sorry to say.. this is not a man, this is a boy. A selfish, puberal boy. He'll have to do a lot of growing up if he'll ever deserve to be your "man" again (if he ever was, that is).

There is no love between him and OW. He's acting like the boys in American Pie but without the humor. And really, at his age it just isn't funny anymore, especially for a married man with children.

I suggest you go into counseling or whatever to build up your self-esteem so you'll not fall into his trap again. You cannot let this man back into your life. Love him, be worried about him if you must, but keep him out of your life unless he has done a lot of hard work to prove he's worthy of you. Rhetorical question: why would you let him into your life if he's NOT worthy of you?

Do I get it right that you "suck" at both Plan A and B because you are good at giving but not much good at receiving?