LL,

I think you missed what Binder was trying to tell you with the frog analogy...

The frog ISN'T your WH - it's YOU!

See, the craziness with WH started out smaller, and has gotten worse and worse with time.

But instead of having worse reactions to it, which is what probably should happen, you become less reactive.... I believe numb was the word you used. You're the frog, and the water (the increasingly outrageous behavior by WH) is getting hotter all the time, but because it's been gradual, you barely notice the change.

Yes, you see it's outrageous, but it almost seems normal to you..... at least, that's what it sounds like from your posts.

I understand that - I got that way with my EX before the end. I would tell friends his latest antics, and their mouths would drop open, and they would ask me how I managed not to literally kill him. And after a while, my reponses got to be.... well, it wasn't that bad. I mean, lots of other people have it worse.

The point of the frog story is - you can't trust your own reactions right now. You've been in the hot water so long, you can't really tell just how hot it's getting. Instead, take the lead by seeing how many people on this thread were shocked by the latest things you've said, and how shocked and upset they were. That's what you probably should be feeling.

His behavior is outrageous, and downright dangerous for the kids.

Ok, LL, remember when I suggested you not worry about being desensitized about your life, your marriage? I take it back.

You voiced a very legitimate concern about being too shell-shocked to see this situation clearly, and I think you were righter than I considered.

What people here are telling you is that you are not seeing this clearly. You are explaining away, defending, and minimizing things that freak out most people. Multiple illegalities and totally unacceptable behavior (the pictures)… this is not the man you married.

Whether or not he regains his senses one day and becomes a righteous man is not the issue now. If he finds God again, he’ll come apologize to you. But while he’s on this rampage please get yourselves to safety. The type of people he’s now associating with (meth) are worse and more influential than you think. He’s flushing his life away and it’s terribly sad, but you can’t let him drag the rest of the family down with him. I’m sure he’d think nothing of your daughter meeting one of his meth buddies. He’ll have your daughter around unreformed, methhead ex-cons. Think about that. It’s killing the spirit of each member of the family to deal with this man. It’s not healthy or spiritual.

You voiced this concern about your perspective, otherwise I don’t think I’d be so direct. Please be safe. You deserve better in life. You have more to give than this. At some point you need to see if there’s something better to do with your time. Please take care - Dru

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

Hi LL,

Here's another story that you may or may not have heard... There's a lady caught in an awful flood. She's sitting on the roof of her car, water rising around her. Her neighbors paddle by in a canoe, offering her a way out. She replies, "I've prayed to the Lord and he will provide safe passage to me--thank you neighbor!, but I am all set." Water continues to rise, she climbs up on top of her shed. Another boat comes by, this time a motor boat, with another offer to save her. Again she says, "I've prayed to the Lord and he will provide safe passage to me--thank you--but I am all set." Water now so high, she has to climb up to the roof of her house. A helicopter flies over, with a rope ladder dangling, with an offer for her to go to safe harbor. Once again, she replies, "I've prayed to the Lord and he will provide safe passage to me--thank you--but I am all set." She drowns. When she gets to heaven and meets the Lord, she questions "Lord, I prayed, and I believed, and instead of giving me safe passage, you allowed me to drown. Why would you allow this to happen to such a faithful servant?" The Lord replied, "My child, I sent you two boats and a helicopter, and you denied safe passage I offered all 3 times!"

LL, you've prayed. The Lord may not send you a burning bush, and his voice may never be heard by your ears, but his answer can be heard in the answers of others who have posted to you. Listen to them and stop denying yourself and children safe passage. Your H's behavior is the rising water.

I'll pray that you are able to see the rope ladder dangling in front of you, I'll pray that you accept and use it, I'll pray that you have the strength to climb it.
Jenny

Binder,

Ya know, me thinks no matter what direction his MLC (an assumption I know) takes him, you’d think he’d realize he’s living in a one bedroom apt. commune.

Commune?? Ya think?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (Yes, I do believe it's MLC, btw. His own dad walked out on his wife and M the mistress at just a few years older than my WH is right now. Runs in th family.)

As for "tough love", I have the Dobson "Love Must be Tough" book. It's good. Principles similar to Plan B except doesn't demand zero contact and instead of telling the WS you are there waiting for them, you actually tell them you are setting them free. I haven't told mine that, but have sort of done it. He does what he wants--I don't intervene.

Can you exist in a marriage remembering his home made pornography?

There are a lot of things I would have a problem with. It's just one of them. I don't think it would make or break the deal, but then again perhaps that's because I'm numb.

At times we need another set of eyes on the pot to see if it’s time to get out or not.

I have a friend at work who I trust. She's given me a lot of good advice, but is not about saving M's, so most of hers leans to D. It may not look like it, but I do lean heavily on the advice I get on this board because I feel you all understand better than someone not dealing with an A.

my guess is you must be on the west coast to be posting this late.

Nope. Just a night-owl from the midwest.


Brownhair,

I'm sorry to say.. this is not a man, this is a boy.

I do agree. He's never matured past about 18 years old. (I can say that--have known him since he was 15).

I suggest you go into counseling or whatever to build up your self-esteem so you'll not fall into his trap again.

No $ for counseling yet. Have DD in right now. Can't pay for both of us. Admittedly have a self-esteem issue but if WH and I end up back together, it won't be due to my lack of self-esteem. And actually, I can probably analyze myself and figure out for the most part WHY my self-esteem is low. I just don't know how to make myself believe I'm better than I think I am. (That talking to yourself in the mirror business doesn't do it for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Do I get it right that you "suck" at both Plan A and B because you are good at giving but not much good at receiving?

Not sure if that's why I s*ck at the plans, but you do have me pegged there.


Penguin,

Yes, you see it's outrageous, but it almost seems normal to you.....

Totally true. You guys know me better than I know myself, I think.

And after a while, my reponses got to be.... well, it wasn't that bad. I mean, lots of other people have it worse.

Another truth nailed squarely on the head. I start feeling sorry for my own situation, and then I see some little kid with cancer or hear of a family that lost the mom and kids in an accident, or something horrible, and I realize I'm much more fortunate than they are.

Instead, take the lead by seeing how many people on this thread were shocked by the latest things you've said, and how shocked and upset they were.

Point taken. It's not that I feel nothing when these things happen, but more that I feel the twisting in my gut, but instead of reacting, I shut down emotionally and become cold. It's an automatic response, not one I consciously do.

Drucilla,

Multiple illegalities and totally unacceptable behavior (the pictures)… this is not the man you married.

Semi-true. He's always been into porn. And he's done some occasional drugs off and on since early in our relationship.

He’ll have your daughter around unreformed, methhead ex-cons.

Actually the sad part that I know that most people don't about this is that the methheads he hangs with (and indeed, some of them are--and some just do it as weekend recreation), are not ex-cons. They're the people who fix your cars, or sell your cars, or do body work on your cars, or oversee the work on your cars (and mine!). Scary!

At some point you need to see if there’s something better to do with your time.

You lost me here. (Along with being scatterbrained--I'm dense!). Better than waiting on WH? Or better than posting on this forum?

LL

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

WH called about specifics of paying off CC and home equity loan. Shared some new stuff:

He and OW are going to Paris (yes, as in France) at the end of September. He and I have traveled a lot but never out of the country so I was VERY surprised. At first he kept saying it was just him going--I was actually worried about him disappearing. (May have mentioned this on here as the Paris idea has come up before).

Turns out they are going with a tour group, and yes, he's taking her. In a weird way, this makes me feel better because at least it is a legitimate trip and he's probably not going to disappear.

I'm a little hurt. (Okay, should I be really angry??). It should have been me and we should have been together. But frankly have little desire to go to Paris or anywhere else out of the states right now with all the chaos in the world.

And then he ordered a new computer. Fine. He probably needs one (and then SHE can deal with all the time he spends downloading porn). But he also upgraded from the free monitor to a big flat-screen that tacked on an additional grand to the price.

And they have cable now. And he's going to by a new grill or a smoker. And blah, blah, blah...

His comment, "This boy ain't goin' without anymore!"

(My unspoken response..."this boy is going to be flat broke before long!")

That insurance settlement is going even faster than I expected it to. However, he does seem to have the midas touch so he may be able to pull this off, too.

Oh well, just a bit of strangely interesting news. No sounds of him considering breaking things off with her anytime soon.

See what I did by not letting him move back home that day he called in June? It was impossible for him to be able to afford to live on his own, he said. And since I wouldn't let him come back, he had to move her in to help with the rent, and buy all this stuff and go to Paris...???!!!????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

How could I have been so mean and thoughtless...

LL

Been thinking a lot today in between working and reading posts and hearing about WH's planned trip to Paris...

maybe this weekend, somewhere between tidying up the house and my other duties, of starting a list of things I want to keep and things he can have if I file...

Next month will be a year since the start of the E/A (may actually be this month--it was gradual so I didn't realize until later). Not looking hopeful at this point.

LL

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

This Paris thing is really eating at me. Seriously...

I couldn't figure out why it was making me more upset than the photo issue (and that was bad enough) when I don't even want to go overseas.

Then I figured it out...

The one thing that WH and I did that was "our thing" was travel. It's been the subject that would make him get all emotional after the A started. A couple times he even cried in the early months when he'd start thinking about us and then would say "LL, I can't travel with anyone but you" or "I'll miss the trips we take together" or "If I leave you, I'll never be able to travel like we have".

But we've never left the continental 48 states. Now he's going to take a trip to Europe, to Paris of all romantic places. The memories they make together will be something he'll never forget, even if the trip has it's down moments. His first trip overseas. His first trip to Europe.

With her... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Now I need the emotional wall to slam down and it's malfunctioning. This one is starting to hurt. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

LL

Dear LordsLady,

Of course this hurts like hell. I guess this was one of the last things you were holding on to as being "special" between you and him, and now he has taken that away too.

I truely think it's time to cut the umbical cord here. All your energy is flowing through it, towards him and the things you are hoping for, and you'll not be able to stand on your own two legs anymore if you keep doing this.

You need to get back to YOU. Many people make the mistake to over-identify with their marriage, their partner's needs, their children, their job etc. When the children have all moved out, or when retirement is there, or when the partner leaves the M, there is no "you" left. You feel lost and you try to get it back, but in fact you lost yourself along the way, many years ago.

You sound like a gentle, caring, giving person. You are certainly worthy of that same behaviour from others towards you. Don't put up with selfish demands from others, you'll just encourage them to do it some more.

I would suggest you take babysteps here towards yourself again. Think back to the things you liked to do when you were by yourself. Start doing them again. Just little things. Maybe go to a pond and feed the ducks. Get back into contact with LordsChild. Take deep breaths and clear your head, even if it's just for a few moments. You'll be amazed at the results <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

(((Lordslady)))

<small>[ August 07, 2004, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

And then find a side profile picture of a handgun.

Blow it up to actual size.

Trace the outline onto a very thin piece of sheet metal.

Cut it out with tin snips. (easy)

Find a way to get it into his/her carry on luggage. (hard)

It will make the trip memorable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ha ha binder..very funny...

lordslady...
plan b today....

I don't even want to see some embelished plan B letter....


I can guess that what he has planned now is all kinds of way to torture you about the upcoming trip...
him dropping all kinds tidbits your way...
the exchange of francs vs the dollar
the excitement of seeing this or that...
that's what he is planning....
to just tease and bait you....

even more scary is your most probable plan of self exposing yourself to the chaos...
one more crisis to keep you spinning.
one more knife in your back and heart...

don't do it...
cut your self loose...
someone once wrote this endearing analogy about dragging their spouse around behind them in a wagon....
and closer to the end of their journey...they concluded..that while the wagon may always be there being towed behind them...the occurance of them glancing behind them to check how things were was greatly diminished....

time to let go of the wagon handle....
you will not be able to endure the pain of this trip without irreprable damage to you and any hopes of a marraige....

tarnish his excitement in this trip by cutting off your exposure to it...
he thrives on it...
and you choose it...
time to quit the chaose...

strict dark plan b with no more excuses....

give yourself atleast until he returns from his trip IF he even goes....which is doubtful...

look at options..
stay in this insane contact you have with him...

or free yourself from it...and begin to thrive, flourish and grow in your grounding of decency and right to have

plan b my friend...
no other choice...for you...

ark

lordslady
You made a comment where you wondered if he really hated you. I too thought the same thing about my stbx. Not only was he cruel to me but to our daughter. She's never given us a moment of trouble-sweet, kind, honor student, leader in church as well as school-perfect. He has destroyed her tennis racquet, torn up her pictures, destroyed her possessions. I never understood it.

I found this book that explained why some men (and women) hate women. It comes from a domineering mother with a weak father. My demonic MIL controlled ever aspect of my stbx's life. He couldn't drive until he was 18, she made him take dance lessons and put him regularly on a local morning television show to dance in a baby blue satin bell boy's costume, would cut his hair (into his 30's) and made him live at home until he was 27. She informed me right after we were married that sex was sin-and he believed it.

Anyway, after she died (thank you God) he began an affair with a woman who is her double. It was a love/HATE relationship. He treated her almost as badly as he treated me and daughter. He too is an alcoholic. So bad that this last week I told him if he didn't leave that I would get a RO and he left (thank you God).

While in Barnes and Noble (to keep from going home I would go there and read), I found a book entitled "Why Christian Men Hate Women." I don't know the author as I gave my stbx the book before he left. It said that men who have domineering mothers who they can't express disgust or hatred for, will inflict that hatred on the other women in their lives ergo it explained why he treated our daughter so horribly. When I asked him why he did such things to us, his reply was "Because I always have." Good excuse, huh!

This affliction is similar to narcissism, which I always thought demonic MIL and stbx had. The only thought they ever have is about themselves. The alcoholism coupled with the cruelty is his way of coping with the feelings he has toward his parents yet can't express.

His father died and he went to Vegas instead of seeing to his burial. He had visitation the night before he left but I alone (and I mean ALONE) saw to his burial. The sad thing was his daughter in law who he treated horribly because his domineering wife expected it, was the only person there when he was placed in the ground.

Like you, I too took a load of cr*p for years and years. It drove my friends and family crazy. They couldn't understand why I didn't haul off and slug him. I too wondered if I had become so incredibly cold. Now that he's gone, I realize my self exteem was in the toliet. When you think so little of yourself, it's easy to take the horrible behavior of another all the while thinking that you love him. You think somehow that's what you deserve.

A relationship that is so shallow that it's based on nude pictures and tales of screaming, crawling women, is bound to eventually fizzle. They'll be left with what they bargained for-high school antics.

This man sounds as sick as my stbx. The further I get away from him the better I feel. I held on for way too long thinking that in some way I deserved such treatment. NOBODY deserves that. I've discovered that he's not 1/1000th as special as I thought he was. I've discovered that he's a weak man with no characater and unable sustain a decent relationship with anyone.

The best thing I've done is to break emotionally from this sick man. It clear the air and you can see the situation better. I think it too puts us in a type of fog.

Please know noone deserves this horrible behavior. What kind of person would show a picture of his nude girlfriend as his daughter's birthday party? Who would allow that picture to be taken? Who would flaunt their girlfriend in front of their wife and family? I tell you who-someone not worth the effort.

ll,

He is spending money like he is Daddy Warbucks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm wondering if now isn't the time to get something financial in writing. Are you still paying ALL the bills and the mortgage (along with H E loan)? Are you getting any child support? Is he helping you at all financially?

I'm sorry...he doesn't have the right to go through money like water when he isn't contributing to his children...settlement or not.

What are you doing in that regard?

committed

More of a response later...got errands to run, but..

Committed,

On the up side, yes he is paying child support. We're using the state tables and he's not balked at it (mainly because when his own dad/mom split, his dad left and refused to pay and WH saw how bad that made it for him and his mom).

Home equity loan has been paid in full as of this morning out of proceeds from camper sale, plus a little extra he contributed. Yes, I pay all bills related to the mortgage and the house and kids.

No legal separation so nothing in writing and with the way he's spending, this is something that scares me.

LL

LL,

Think it is time for some 'major home improvements'.

Do you need new carpets, tile, remodeling the kitchen, new roof, room addition etc.????? Need a new car? One for your daughter, maybe? A new computer!??!?!

Let's see I know who seems to have lots of $$$. Yep, maybe that trip to Paris can't happen if you need to fix up your place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

L.

Lords lady.....my heart bleeds for you. I am in a very similar sitch. PLEASE consider coming to ladies chat. if you are not java enabled go to java.com and download that- only takes a minute- then you can come to live MBladies chat. you will get some instant support to talk about this and there is a forum to post also.

http://www.san-andreas.com/mbladies/chat.php

Peace out...and IN!

Brownhair,

Many people make the mistake to over-identify with their marriage, their partner's needs, their children, their job etc. When the children have all moved out, or when retirement is there, or when the partner leaves the M, there is no "you" left.

Bingo.

Think back to the things you liked to do when you were by yourself. Start doing them again.

Have heard this one before. Here's the dilemma: I met WH when I was 15--just beginning my freshman year in HS. I really never had a life before him. So I'm just now starting to learn what it is that I want to do, and between the house and work and keeping up with DD, I don't have much time to figure that out.

Ark,

you will not be able to endure the pain of this trip without irreprable damage to you and any hopes of a marraige....

You are probably right...IF he does go, it would be VERY tough to get past that. (and I still consider it iffy too, though he gave me the tour group name and travel dates and I looked it up on line. It's legit).

Although I've done a lot of looking back during my time alone and I often don't think I want to go back--not the way he is, and not the way he was for a good share of our 19 years. I haven't had the fine, upstanding, Christian husband that some others write about. Fun guy, yes. Would help any friend in need, yes. (That has always been the problem--he's always to busy helping a friend to be home with the family). Dependable in a crisis for me--no! Usually ran the other way.

Our therapist, who he quit seeing early on in this deal described him as narcisstic and emotionally "stunted" and said he had serious doubts that at WH's age, he would really change much. I didn't want to believe he was right and had several good cries after therapy sessions because I didn't want to believe that.

I know in my mind that with God all things are possible, and that's probably the biggest reason I haven't moved on. I feel like if I do move on, I'm giving up on God and his blessings. But I find myself being very pessimistic sometimes...thinking that I'm putting my life on hold, for how long (I'm at nearly a year now)?? Just in case WH ever decides to pull his head from his rear end.

I was telling some people at at a neighborhood get-together tonight that overall I'm doing okay. But that sometimes it bothers me because I can't do single things because I'm married, but I don't fit into the married "couple" things because I'm single. I can do it for a while, but it really isn't something I want to do for very long.

(Tonight was a prime example. I am on a ladies Bunco league, and the get-together was actually our annual "couple's bunco" where everyone brings their spouse or significant other. DD had grudgingly agreed to come with me, then bailed last night. I brought my son who was kind enough to come along in a pinch.)

To Ark and others...

I'll think on Plan B. I'm not sure I'm disciplined enough to pull off and absolute and utter black Plan B and I don't think many of you think I'll be able to do it either.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>I met WH when I was 15--just beginning my freshman year in HS. I really never had a life before him. So I'm just now starting to learn what it is that I want to do, and between the house and work and keeping up with DD, I don't have much time to figure that out.
LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear LordsLady,
By the time you are 15 the foundation of who you are, your outlook on life, your dreams, your preferences, are all there. So if you have little time, just try to take a deep breath now and then, and try to connect with those dreams again. Just enjoy the feeling of them.
And come on, your DD is 14, it's time for you to start having your own life again my dear. Or do fun things with her.
Go spoil yourself!

though he gave me the tour group name and travel dates and I looked it up on line. It's legit).

there it is....why in heavens name would you even pay any attention to that...

this is the stuff that YOU will let drive YOU crazy.....

I would rather shove bamboo sticks under my nails...than be exposed to my husbands intinerary over his trip to Paris with his girlfriend....

Lordslady...
the problem with you not doing plan b with total darkness is YOU...
cause YOU seek this info
YOU listen to him.....

I would tell him that i want to HEAR NOTHING ABOUT it....
that you need the dates he is unavailable PERIOD...any thing else is YOU exposing YOU to this sickness......

please lose the website addy

oooh already...you are sucked in to the drama

ark

The only thing I can say to this is that this guy is completely insensitive even cruel. The only consolation for you might be that every dog has his day- believe me I know. This woman will wind up crushing him. Karma is a real *****.

Dear Lords Lady- I will have to attest to the dark thing. once you REALLY let go-it does save you. It took me 9 weeks- look around at how many kept repeating it to me!! h expected me to fall and stay fallen- we too have been together since a young age. now hes gone back to one before me! that search for eternal youth? mid life crisis- whatever. I DIDN'T DO IT. and NEITHER DID YOU. once I cut the contact off except for an extreme question-a dying parent or to get a support answer- I found that geting thru another day of no contact got easier.

we will NOT convince them that they are throwing it all away- thoroughly displeasing God-'killing' the wife/children/family/friends/ community they are forsaking. You have to let the Lord handle the WS. and HE WILL. also HE has a way of letting me know what is going on with my WH. I don't have to look or snoop or drive by or research....God lets me know what I need to know.

now about that moving on/giving up God part. not true. God loves you and has a plan for you and wants the best for you. you have to LIVE and do the Lord justice by going HIS way. I am not suggesting 'party on'- we need time to heal our hearts. The more you study His word and learn- the safer you will feel and the more steps you will take. it has taken me a few months to get ANYTHING accomplished that could be construed as not MOURNING. too long-but it is what it is.

I have finally accepted alot of this. I still pray for my wh and the public disrespect is head high here from h and ow. I watch my grown sons work thru it and I know I will never let that man do this to them again.

please know I am praying for you...LET THE LORD SCOOP YOU UP!


PEACE OUT...and IN!!