Goodmorning Faith-I wanted to also say don't beat yourself up. You are doing great. One day at a time. Just focus on the kids and yourself.

I agree=let the OW meet his needs. Have you seen a lawyer to make sure you know your rights? Be firm and get mad-how dare he call you and tell you he hasn't made up his mind? What is there to think about. It is either do the right thing or screw up everyone's life-including OW (what a 22y/o would want with a 30 y/o MM with kids). STUPID! FOOOOG!

How dare he do that to your kids, his kids. I am angry with him. You are doing fine, that's why I said we'd support you no matter what, because this is a tough time and it isn't all black and white. Good luck with plan b today.

Do the kids have to talk to him? I know dumb question-maybe you could keep them out and busy all day. Sounds like they could use plan b too. Hang in there faith-we're all praying for your.

I agree with NJ, give the kids the option, they don't HAVE to talk with him if they don't want, and a break for a day may be good for them.

Plan B is HARD, i was horrible at it too, after all the activiry nad good things from Plan A I couldn't just let go, I felt so out of control.

But Plan B takes a change in thinking. Plan A is for the WS, to try to fulfill as many EN's as you can. Plan B is for YOU, to take you out of the chaos and drama and preserve the love you have. Every time you talk with him, or see the kids upset, it depletes youir lovebank. You are going to need all the love units youi can get to get through withdrawal and recovery.

And every time you talk with WH you have enabled him to continue the A a little longer...he has gotten his faith fix, so the OW doesn't have to fulfill as many needs. He is confident he has you hanging on...

Yes, I would go visit a lawyer. When he comes back with his cranium affixed to his colon you will need some legal recourse or support about visiting the kids and paying bills. Look into a seperation, it will lay things out, but doesn't have the D word attached. I have heard that seperation documents often get used as the D decree though...

Stay strong, stay BUSY!!! Turn off that phone, and if there is a number you don't know...let him leave a message, then delete it as soon as you hear his voice. Can you block his number? And block any new number he uses? You want to know you are still needed, wanted, let yourself know that you are, he has been possessed by an alien life form and does not act the way a normal man in love would act. Let yourself beleive if he wasn't possessed he would be acting and doing what you would expect, but since he is NOT NORMAL, his actions are mysterious and alien-like. Block his ability to communicate with you as much as you can, then you won't look for the texts and phone calls, and hear that alien-speak we dread to hear "I just don't know, I can't decide, I want it all." My H had the nerve to ask me once, "Why can't I have a wife AND a girlfriend?"

You are doing GREAT!!! There was a break in the dark for a bit, now it's dark again...

Hi FIM! I have never posted to you before, but I wanted to let you know that you ARE an inspiration to everyone on here, including me! I see a lot of similarities in you and me and also in our H's!

Right now, You need to find a plan and stick to it! Whether it be Plan A or Plan B! I was not good at Plan B at all! I was terrific at Plan A in the beginning just as you have been, but there came a time when I got sick of my WH's waffling! I started getting MAD and angry and bitter, that was when I had to go into Plan B! I did fairly well for about 10 days! WH would find any reason to break the plan. he would call me, try to see me, etc...he did eventually come home, only to slip back into the affair again and again!

I am teling you this FIM because the OW's will stop at nothing! NOTHING! Your WH needs to make up his mind, and nothing you do will make it up for him! He is confused right now! he knows in his heart the right thing to do, but he is being tugged away by a fantasy! And that is all it is! They have no kids, no bills, no house, no stress...it is all fun and games to them! The fantasy will die off! You do have an advantage though FIM, she lives in San Antonio, thousands of miles away!

Unfortunately, your WH going there has set him WAY back! he now is with her and the A will be back in action full force by the time he comes home! You ahve to be the strong one FIM!

Plan B is HARD! Very HARD! It is so hard NOT to answer that phone when you see it is the man you love and cherish! I know, I have been there!

I have kicked my H out so many times, broken plan B Love busted him and so on! But he always comes back to me! Unfortunatly his OW is now PG with his child!

I couldn't let the OW win though. I had to get my WH back in the house so we can start to work on US! The OW is a non entity in your life! When your H is with you, he is not with her! She will LB him up and down, left and right!

My WH OW has called him so many times and texted messaged him...finally he told her that he is at home and he is staying here! He assured her that the baby will be taken care of...He will visit it and support it! And so will I!

FIM, figure out what YOu want to do! If you think you can go back into plan A when he comes home and not LB him then do it! You were really good at it! YOu have told him about Plan B...but the WH doesn't "get it"...he will never "get it" until the fog lifts! If you continue to break the Plan B, as I have done, it will only send messages of confusion to your WH.

"hmmm, she said she wouldn't talk to me, but each time I call she answers the phone..she must not mean what she says"

you see, we, the BS's, are just as addicted to our WH's as they are to the OW and OW to them...you will go thru good days and bad days. Some days you will be angry, some days happy, most days sad...this is the man you love, it is hard to NOT pick up that phone! I understand FIM! I do...I have been thru the ringer and back..but each time, I come out stronger than ever!

You want to know my H breaking point? It was when I filed for divorce, so he thought! I saw the attorney, and figured out my rights! That was enough for him to figure out "hey, I might just lose this wonderful woman I have"

Hang in there FIM! You are doing super! dont you worry about that WH of yours...

BTW and I am a stones throw from San Antonio, if you want me to check up on him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just a thought Faith.

Would changing your home and cell numbers make plan B easier?

I do suspect that the kids talking to him everyday at his whim IS hard on them. They sound like they need some plan B days too.

If they must call him vs him getting them.....they will have the control of an uncontrollable situation and maybe feel less stressed. Is there a counselor they can talk to (at church or school) who can help them with this tough, tough time?

EXPOSE NOW.

NOTIFY OW's CO, Notify OW's family, Send copy of Plan B letter to OW.

Also send your Plan B letter immediately to Mr. FIM.

Then do a PERFECT Plan B. Its never been more important. So far you have been the MB posterchild. Don't let go now, you are so close to success. Trust the process.

What I see is that your Plan A was so damn good, that you too fell in love with your H all over again. You both RE-bonded.

And I know it surprised you that you had such a hard time with no contact, or worse, not knowing what's going on with him and OW.

Us BS always seem to imagine the very worse, when in reality, things aren't always that perfect with the fantasy couple.

Baby steps with learning not to allow any contact from your H, FiM. And learn to forgive yourself for doing what comes so naturally, loving and being there for him. Trying to behave differently is a learned behavior and a bit tough.

How's Plan B day two going for you?

Jo

On a side note: Lexxxy!!!!! WOW! Long time girlie. Can you please offer us an update?

FaithinMe,

I am so PROUD of you! Though disappointed in your own first try at Plan B you overcame your pride and posted here. That is huge ... consider it practice for things to come.

You did great, considering all the circumstances. I think you laid out Plan B vocally with tremendous impact. You really don't need to give him the letter now, but it might be a good thing to have the intermediary do when he returns.

The written word has a way of staying in one's heart and mind, because we tend to go back to it and read it again and again.

You learned a lot, too. By appearing weak on your word, your WH took that as permission to continue testing the waters (which he would have done anyway... you can be certain of that!). And by giving in to knowing for sure if he was with OW by calling her, you only succeeded in letting her know that you were concerned that she still has a piece of his heart.

Not good.

But not insurmountable, either. In fact, WH probably liked that you showed a little weakness in your armour. Still, it is time to go back dark and stay there if you can.

Listen carefully to what TourGuideBarbie wrote. Go back and read her posts. Waffling on Plan B can be absolutely disasterous!

I know you can do this. If you fall, pick yourself up. Post it here, get support. You'll do fine.

~ Snow


edited by JustUss at posters request

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Faith...now is the time NOW to contact her CO. Take her focus off WH and put it on keeping her job! And remember always *67 before you dial which blocks numbers.

I too agree keeping your daughter's too busy to call him. It upsets you and it upsets them. You're anxious to know what was said and maybe not able to deal with their disappointment. It's just bad...

Give it time. He's got to be there and realize she's not what he thinks she is. Calling back and forth may keep him too confused to realize the situation and will prolong the agony-for everyone.

You know ow/child is giving him grief and telling him that he was right, his wife is manipulating. Don't give her ammunition. So what if she's at work-either way it doesn't matter. You already know he's not always honest-don't keep proving it. Don't let them bond against you. Go very, very dark. The only thing left for you to do is contact her CO. Then stay busy until it plays out in SAT.

I know it's very hard but it's just as I would tell my daughter when she was little and would have to get a shot-the pain now will save you from a potentially life threatening illness. It's easier to take in that light.

Hi, FIM.

I think you are doing great. A few bobbles and even a skinned knee when learning to ride a bike is normal.

The OW is steadily pushing his buttons. She knows that the battle is between her and you. It is probably time to play the rest of the exposure game. Hopefully this will defocus her enough to start picking at your husband.

He is also pushing your buttons. He is obviously a smart guy, or he wouldn't be in the occupation he is in. Build a nice little fort for you and your children by anticipating as much of his tactics as you can, and short-circuiting them.

You are a smart woman, FIM, and you have done a good job. Just don't forget that you are human, and that your husband knows your vulnerabilities. Those areas you will have to protect more fervently.

When something comes up that you haven't anticipated (and it will), the fallback plan is TIME. Unless it is an emergency, put him off until you can figure out how to proceed.

All the best,
Gimble

I haven't read the new posts here, so I'll be back after work to do that and reply. I just wanted to write a quick update... because I'm addicted to this place!!

My friend x called WH to find out about an issue concerning pay that I needed to know about. She called back to let me know what he had to say and also told me she thinks WH will be coming home early.

It seems that she had a long conversation with him because when she asked how he is doing he just spilled his guts on EVERYTHING and towards the end was crying. I have a feeling it may be against PLAN B to listen to her tell the whole conversation, but I did.

She asked him what was going on and from what she says, he sounds REALLY confused. He thanked her for being the person in the middle and said it was nice to have someone to talk to since he's confided in no one. She asked when he was coming home and he said Saturday. She asked why and he told her it's because he doesn't want to change his ticket again and that he already had done that once. So, x decided to lay it on the line for him again. She said, "You know that Paula is VERY serious about this don't you? She's not playing around with you here. I've never seen her so resolved as she is right now. You need to get your butt home if you want there to be a chance to save your marriage."

So, he tells her that he doesn't think he can get a flight out after the interview anyway. X has a suggestion for him. "Why don't you let Paula call and try if you're willing to come home. She's not going to believe you if you just say you can't get there. If you want to come home, let her try and if she can't get you a flight, she'll know you were willing."

OMG, he'd never thought of THAT. He seemed to think that was a pretty good idea and said he was going to think about it and get back to her if he wanted me to try. We'll see.

He also complained to her of all of my "requirements" for his coming back. She asked, "What the divorce papers?" He said no. (That's what I thought would be a deal breaker) She asked, "That you can't contact OW". He says, "Yeah. I don't think there's a problem with my emailing her occasionally. It's not like I'd do it everyday and I won't talk to her. I think she's being unreasonable."

X went friend to friend with him she said. She said, "You know that's crap. I'm your friend, you know that. You're treating her with such disrespect right now that you can't even think straight. What if you were advising your daughter? Hell, what would you tell ME? You've told me to run the other from men who treated me with a fraction of the disrespect you're giving your wife. Think about it. She loves you so much she is willing to work on this relationship knowing you're in another woman's bed tonight. Really think about that. All she's asking for is a true attempt at reconciliation, not this half-a$$ed thing you've been doing. Get your butt home and try before you've got nothing to try for anymore. She's not asking anything more difficult of you than she's willing to go through herself."

Now, these are all things I've told him in the past, but they made more of an impact coming from a neutral party. She thinks he really listened to her. He started crying, she's pretty sure anyway. He said he just doesn't know and is afraid of having to make up for it forever and that he might let me down again if it doesn't work out after all and that a divorce now would be better than one ten years down the road.

So she told him that he can't control any of that. Work on what you can, she said. Get on a plane and come home to work on your family. Really work on it.

She got the impression he's afraid of me right now. Afraid of the "wrath" of Paula. Afraid of things going back to the way they were. Afraid of letting everyone down.

Sounds to me like it's more of a fear of the future than love of another woman. BUT this is second hand. She does think he cares for her. And he kept saying, "I just want to be happy." He's said this to me many times when saying how good it is with OW. But, she said she would be VERY surprised if he doesn't come home tomorrow and agree to the NC and to work on things.

Now, I realize I'm still in the drama by listening to these things. The good thing is he doesn't know she told me and knowing our relationship (meaning all three of us) I doubt he would assume she would tell me. I'm not holding out a whole lot of hope that he'll make the effort to get home. It would be nice though if this not-so-good PLAN B only lasted a few days and he agreed to try. I'm much better at PLAN A type things.

So, there's the question. If he does agree to NC and everything else and we are able to try recovery, do I keep up the Plan A treatment too? If he doesn't, I know to PLAN B. But I haven't thought about what to do if he agrees to everything. What then? We'd go back to MC and IC, I know that. Do I still PLAN A until he's sure this is what he wants and we get into a better place? I'm not sure what I would do if he actually does agree to everything because I have never thought it might happen this fast.

It may still not. He may decide the risk is worth it to stay away. But what if he wants to try? I want to be ready either way.


hehe - That's my "short" update.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: faithinme ]</small>

Faith..this is one for the Harley's..call them and see if you can set up a time for a call...

When recovery starts you really look at the problems in your M before and you change.

Continue what looks like a Plan A until they are through withdrawal. Plan A is only used when the S is in an A.

Read about the four rules of M, and yes, still try to meet those top three EN's. But the difference then is, you can ask for need fulfillment back. POJA, Radical Honesty, and counseling.....lots and lots of counseling, maybe even for the kids too.

What parts of your Plan A could you keep up forever? Cutting out the LB's? Meeting his needs? I have tried to maintain an attitude of Plan A since recovery, we passed our first year in recovery the first part of August...bumps in the road, times when I wanted to give up when I didn't feel he was giving enough...but things are better now.

It's going to be OK. Yes, back to plan a if he agrees, but his life has to be an open book. Many a MM has rekindled the affair a month or two later.

It is going your way. She can't handle this. He knows. Does he really want some other guy raising his little girl. 20 years from now does he want his daughter to come and cry to him that her husband is having an affair, well that happened to me. I didn't think I'd picked one like Dad, but I did. The psych people would have a good time with that one, but Dad gave me the best advice and I will pass it on to you. Be firm right now or this will drag on. He helped me be strong when my H wanted to go with the OW. My FWS was acting just like yours is now. You bet his scared. You hold all the cards and deep down he knows he screwed up. Faith, it will be OK. He's going to come home crying because he knows this is wrong. Hugs-Jersey Girl

Faith,

There is much hope in what is going on right now. But I caution you: fog is fog. Stay clear of it as much as you can and make the best use of Plan B, no matter how long it lasts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong>She called back to let me know what he had to say and also told me she thinks WH will be coming home early.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right not to put too much stock in this. He is battling with himself right now and nobody, perhaps even he, knows what he'll decide about coming home early.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong>I have a feeling it may be against PLAN B to listen to her tell the whole conversation, but I did.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try to avoid this in the future. Knowing what he said to her already has you battling yourself against hoping for too much. You don't need that. In addition, if he learns she's reporting to you, he might not be as candid with her and she sounds like a great ally to the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> "Why don't you let Paula call and try if you're willing to come home. She's not going to believe you if you just say you can't get there. If you want to come home, let her try and if she can't get you a flight, she'll know you were willing."
...........

X went friend to friend with him she said. She said, "You know that's crap."
.........
"Think about it. She loves you so much she is willing to work on this relationship knowing you're in another woman's bed tonight. Really think about that. All she's asking for is a true attempt at reconciliation, not this half-a$$ed thing you've been doing."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I LOVE THIS WOMAN!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> He said he just doesn't know and is afraid of having to make up for it forever and that he might let me down again if it doesn't work out after all and that a divorce now would be better than one ten years down the road.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When he comes home you will have to undertake the hard work, like you mentioned: changing who you both are and making your marriage the best it can be. Right now he doesn't know that can happen. He feels like he might be missing the boat to give up OW. When he comes home to work at it, really work at it, you will both have to give and learn. You will both change. It is that process that makes it clear that staying together has been worth it. He has to get to a place now where he can accept that change will be good and permanent, on faith.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> She got the impression he's afraid of me right now. Afraid of the "wrath" of Paula. Afraid of things going back to the way they were. Afraid of letting everyone down. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's a nugget in there, FiM. Your husband should not fear your "wrath." Fear guilt. Fear seeing your pain. But wrath? Think about that one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> So, there's the question. If he does agree to NC and everything else and we are able to try recovery, do I keep up the Plan A treatment too? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see Plan A as a dress rehearsal for creating the environment in a marriage where meeting each other's needs is an everyday occurence. As someone else mentioned, though, once he's out of the fog, he'll begin meeting your needs, too. So by all means, continue to Plan A. It brings him closer to you and will ward off his fears of your "wrath."

~ Snow

Faith,

When he comes back, not only you, but he has do do a Plan A with you also.

Just two observations from your last post. (I won't try to answer recovery questions since I'm not "qualified.")

1. You have a terrific intermediary. Is she the friend that has posted here?

2. Be patient.

He's obviously conflicted and in turmoil. Good. Let him stew. DO NOT try to quicken the time in the oven by turning up the heat. Slow cooking has its benefits.

This is a point that seems to be lost on many BSs - time is on your side.

This thing is very, very likely to fizzle. If you try to hurry it, you can do WAY more harm than good.

Find a copy of Frank Pittman's "Private Lies." I believe you will find it VERY instructive - and it'll keep you out of trouble in the near term by occupying you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WAT

Again, haven't read responses...

Question:

He can't get a flight out on Thursday or Friday due to the Labor Day weekend - I was the one who checked.

In PLAN B, once he comes home and is not living with us or communicating with me, how do I fight the new fantasy he's built up with the few days of no bill/kids/responsibilities he's just left with her the last 5 days?

Am I hurting myself more here? Since he can't get a flight back, should I waver on this.

Part of me says, you left, that's the cards you're dealt when you can't get back from where you shouldn't be to begin with.

Or, do I let him come back with a NC agreement?

This is confusing to me because he's just renewed that little fantasy he has with her.

UGH

double post

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: faithinme ]</small>

Again, I agree with WAT. I remember those days when I was where you are. It's difficult and the minutes seem as if they're hours.

He's there with the ow/child but his mind is with you. It's very delicate right now. She's more than likely LBing him all over the place while trying not to. Oh, she'll do ok for awhile but finally the pressure will be too much. He's finally there with her but keeps calling home-the same as it was with you-but there's 3 children and a bond that supercedes what they had. It's not the same for either of them. There's a big difference between whispers of a forbidden relationship and the cries of precious children. She's unsure and he's miserable. She may be desperate to hold on and he's confused.

Faith, it's still so very delicate and continuing in Plan B is vital...if you can help it, resist the temptation to find out what he has said other than what you already know. It'll cause for even greater stress.

I still believe the Harley's will be a big help. Right now I am in counseling and she's not saying anything that my friends haven't said but it's different somehow. She's impartial, has no stake in the matter, and is seeing it without any affection for me which differentiates her from my friends. It's so comforting to know that I'm doing the right thing.

You're doing a good job. Hold on and as has been said...time is on your side. Use it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong>how do I fight the new fantasy he's built up with the few days of no bill/kids/responsibilities he's just left with her the last 5 days?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't.

Plan B is YOUR isolation from all his crap.

Let him fend for himself. Not your worry. Plan B leaves it ALL to him - every dern bit of it. He has to find everything he needs on his own. Hopefully, he'll figure out that his answers DON'T lie with OW. Now, you have some flexibility depending on where is head is at upon his return. If he comes bearing a NC letter, you ought to hear him out. But even if he sends a NC letter - relapse can come in an instant.

Please catch up to your reading.

WAT