Again I am so sorry for this invasion of the thread K .....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by brown:
<strong>I am a sensible woman and I have morals (even if this OW and my H both lost sight of theirs). .... probbaly b/c I basically a good person, faithful, forgiving, self respecting woman....
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A sensible woman with morals?

You are also very foolish. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the judge and jury .... I am not a foolish woman. I am trying to work on my M. If I do what is best for me and my M, I am foolish. Isn't that bit hypocritical????

I never said you have to follow my lead ... it's obvious you would do something else. However, I was only offering another point of view.

Oh and ML I did not originally say anything about being a "Christian" -- the self righteous usally bring it up. And I believe you "cast the first stone" Again I ask am I the OW or the BS????

And just what does Harley himself say about honesty? Lets take a look:

Dr Willard Harley, founder of Marriage Builders

“From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.”

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by brown:
<strong>
Oh and ML I did not originally say anything about being a "Christian" -- the self righteous usally bring it up. And I believe you "cast the first stone" Again I ask am I the OW or the BS???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Brown, sure you did, you brought God into it with this statement: " I have also left this in God's hands for now."

With all due respect spouting twisted scriptures at me does nothing to defend your poor judgement in helping the OW hide her secret and won't shut others up. [I notice you conventiently ignored the scripture I posted that said to "expose evil".] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Its not being "self righteous" to point out that its a very bad move to keep the affair secret. Its just simple common sense. Sorry if that makes you mad to have it pointed out, but it is a simple fact.

Well, ML I agree with the article as it would pertain to me and my H. I also agreed it would pertain to the OW and her H. However, what's been missed is .... My H has been honest with me. Maybe he didn't "reveal" it to me himself (I found an e-mail), but he answered every question I have had about the EA, "voluteered" his feelings b/f and after, and after reading his posts I have concluded that he is being "honest" to me and *OUR* commitment to *OUR* marriage.

The fact that *I* do not want to nor *CHOOSE* to tell the OW's H about the A, is to me irrelivate to my M.

You make alot of analogies ... but did you understand anything I've written? I'm leaving it up to GOD, let HIM sort it out

AMEN

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: brown ]</small>

Brown, the Harley article offers up a general PRINCIPLE that is not limited to just YOUR SPOUSE. A principle is something you apply to ALL situations in life, not just when it is convenient to you. If that is how you took it, you have missed the ENTIRE point.

However, you have made it crystal clear that you are not telling your H's victim because, in your own words: "I don't know and I frankly do not care" and "is to me irrelivate to my M.."

That settles that, I would say!

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Yes, ML I did "ignore" your script ref about evil .... I'm sure I could get my "good book" out and ref the exact scriptures too, instead of giving you "twisted" versions. However, I do not feel I really need to do that (as you have proven you can quote it with the best of them). It was not my intention to use them to shut you or anyone else up. Nor were they used to "defend" my "poor judgement". I have prayed and I am exercising what my Heart is telling me is best for now (Be still and know tha I am God).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MelodyLane:
[QB] Brown, the Harley article offers up a general PRINCIPLE that is not limited to just YOUR SPOUSE. A principle is something you apply to ALL situations in life, not just when it is convenient to you.

You put the PRINCIPLES of a man b/f God and you tell I've missed a point. "something you apply to ALL situations in life, not just when it is convenient to you". Perhaps that's what you have with your "Christian" values.

"Judge not and Ye not be judged"


However, you have made it crystal clear that you are not telling your H's victim because, in your own words: "I don't know and I frankly do not care" and "is to me irrelivate to my M.."

Absolutely!!!!!! (Unless there is another plan I have to follow - God's plan - I do not feel it makes "common sense" to me - for the person I am.)

Well Brown, I dare say that God's plan does not include ignoring evil because, as you say, you "don't care." Having compassion for others and doing unto others as you would have others do unto you IS part of God's plan. So please don't try and use God to justify your lack of empathy.

Sitting by and ignoring evil because "you don't care" and it's "irrelevent to you" is not a Christian attribute no matter how you spin it. It is YOUR OWN attribute.

[and you don't even understand the scripture you quoted about judging. Matthew chapter 7 is not an admonition against "judging" it is an admonition against HYPOCRISY. You took it out of context by leaving off the passages that come after it: "Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."]

K--Once again, hon, I'm sorry to interupt *YOUR* thread. However, this does need to be addressed.

I had to pry the keyboard out of my W's fingers. Her integrity has been attacked and I do not blame her getting defensive one bit.

First, WAT. I think my W said it pretty well: so, you are the judge and jury eh? (funny thing? You haven't listened to the defense. Or is it the prosecution? Oh--I guess you have divine right--you make that choice, right WAT?

ML: One of the things (and I've said this before) coming out of this EA that has been completely positive is that me and the Mrs ar communicating again. Many people have told us--past, and it was nice to hear someone say it in the present--that when we stand united, there ain't nothin' we can't accomplish. Unfortunately, you "attacked" my wife, and we are standing united. with that...
In Dr. Harley's article: "Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.)" No explanation needed. However, as brown pointed out, the article by Dr. Harley is referring is to the two spouses that want to reconcile and rebuild their marriage. Who the heck am I to say (or judge) that the OW and OWH want to reconcile????
"If that is how you took it, you have missed the ENTIRE point." Once again, as with many of my posts (and conversations with brownie), as Dr. Harley starts the article, "IN MY PERSPECTIVE..."
In **YOUR** perspective, yeah, I suppose we did miss the point.

"And yes, it really is your business and your W's if the OWH knows. It is the business of ANYONE who knows that this man's W has betrayed him. Consider this, LI. Let's say that your neighbor's bookkeeper is embezzling money from him. Do you excuse yourself from warning him by saying it is "none of your business?" Do you rationalize that you "don't know him" in order to avoid doing the decent thing and warning him about this? See, it is all just rationalizations to avoid doing the right thing."
One fact you left out of your nifty analogy, is, does the neighbor already know there is something wrong with his books?

"The past tense doesn't change anything."
Like hell it doesn't! I don't think there would be one MB'er here! If we live our lives in the past--we have no present or futrure. Learn from your mistakes. You know, Fool me once...

"And the OWH can't "rebuild" anything if he doesn't have all the facts about his life. LIES will heal nothing."
Who am I or anybody to judge *WHETHER THEY EVEN WANT TO RECONCILE*?

"And that is one single RATIONAL REASON to not tell OWH about this affair. You have not given one single legitimate reason. Do you not feel that you have a moral imperative to tell your victim what you have done to him?"
Again, ML, you are substituting "moral imperative" with what WAT did: judge and jury. MAybe I'm missing something. Honestly. Maybe if you define "moral imperative" I'll have a better understanding.

"To not do so is to put your own convenience above his best interests."
Sorry. Have to agree with brown. In any A, who is responsible? Even per Dr. Harley? Who? OK. Knowing the answer to that, even I--who was closest to even remotely knowing--have no clue of what his interests are.

"Some people can sit right by and watch all sorts of destruction and never have a flutter of the heart as long as it happens to someone else. However, most people are not like that. Good luck to ya."
And you are not judgemental? Wow! If this last zinger wasn't judging brown, I really don't know what is. Having a "fluttering of the heart" does not mean taking action does it? Please, I can play semantics with the best of them. LINY loves a good debate--which this isn't--so when you want to stop judging and throwing daggers at my wife's fluttering heart, I'm game for a debate--Lincoln-Douglas is fine with me.

PS When we both joined this site--it was me at first who wanted direction. After a few 2X4's and on the flip side some very thought provoking responses to my--our--story (have you even read some of our original posts that you are responding so astutely to?) we both--individually and as a married being--have gained so much help and support. My intention is *NOT* to take that away. But we have several soucres--God as the ultimate One--that we turn to--not just MB. My point? As good of a man as he is, and as helpful as he has been to thousands, he is not my god. Does he have good principles. Some--absolutely! There is only one Absolute God, however.

Peace, love, and harmony.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
Well Brown, I dare say that God's plan does not include ignoring evil because, as you say, you "don't care." Having compassion for others and doing unto others as you would have others do unto you IS part of God's plan. So please don't try and use God to justify your lack of empathy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, with all due respect to EVERYONE, this is not the forum to be "throwing" Scripture around to your liking.

What "evil" are you referring to, ML? The act of my affair, or the not telling the OWH about his situation, which, is none of our business?

Oh, and if you know God's plan and know the ultimate D-day, please let us know so that we are prepared. For the time being, we will live the best Christian life we can. I'm sorry we disagree about this, but there is no need to keep "slandering" my wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong>

What "evil" are you referring to, ML? The act of my affair, or the not telling the OWH about his situation, which, is none of our business?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, adultery IS evil. And of course telling the OWH *IS* your business! You are the one who victimized him. Who elses business is it?

And no, Liny, I have not "attacked" your wife. Questioning her bad judgment in not telling the OWH is not an "attack." And of course I can judge it is a wrong decision. One is supposed to judge right from wrong. Just like you are "judging" others on this thread who disagree with you. Our prisons are full of people who cannot judge right from wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In Dr. Harley's article: "Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.)" No explanation needed. However, as brown pointed out, the article by Dr. Harley is referring is to the two spouses that want to reconcile and rebuild their marriage. Who the heck am I to say (or judge) that the OW and OWH want to reconcile????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is just more rationalization to avoid telling your victim, Liny. It requires no response, it speaks for itself quite well. Nor do you use the POJA as an excuse to be dishonest and avoid doing the right thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"And that is one single RATIONAL REASON to not tell OWH about this affair. You have not given one single legitimate reason. Do you not feel that you have a moral imperative to tell your victim what you have done to him?"
Again, ML, you are substituting "moral imperative" with what WAT did: judge and jury. MAybe I'm missing something. Honestly. Maybe if you define "moral imperative" I'll have a better understanding.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A moral imperative is a DUTY that you have to your fellow man. It means that when you know someone is [or has] been harmed, that you ALERT them to the danger. It means that when YOU have harmed someone, that the decent thing to do is admit it to them and make amends. This is what a truly remorseful person does as a moral duty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To not do so is to put your own convenience above his best interests."
Sorry. Have to agree with brown. In any A, who is responsible? Even per Dr. Harley? Who? OK. Knowing the answer to that, even I--who was closest to even remotely knowing--have no clue of what his interests are.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was his best interest served by having an affair with his wife, LI? Was his best interest served by not telling him that you have harmed him? A rational person does not have to be TOLD that it is not in someone's "best interest" to be lied to and cheated on, do they? Are you qualified AT ALL to determine his best interest?

Liny, this has got to be one of the most fogged out rationalizations I have ever read in all my years here. There is absolutely nothing you have said or can say that will justify not telling your victim what you have done to him. But then, you don't have to justify yourself to me. Your W told me that she simply didn't care since it wasn't "relevent" to her and that is her right. But don't expect me or others to agree with you. That's your stance and so be it, you don't have to justify yourself to me.

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> First, with all due respect to EVERYONE, this is not the forum to be "throwing" Scripture around to your liking.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And where is that rule? I have been here for years and have never seen a rule that said we couldn't "throw" around scripture to our liking. The last I checked, there was no discrimination here.

I never said there was a rule. Please, ML, grow up. All I said, was that it is OK to discuss different opinions, methods, etc to help rebuild one's marriage, right? Can we agree on that? I'm also saying, that for the majority of people, there is a "Higher Authority" that governs us. Correct? BUT, when you start being hypocritical saying not to judge when that is exactly what you are doing, then it becomes a problem. You have insulted, been hypocritical, and attacked brown. We are willing to drop this, but you continue to demand that "this is best for you", to tell the OWH. What's best for you, is not best for someone else. Why can't you understand this? And through all of these posts back and forth, we have *all* lost sight that K is in need for some advice!

ML: Please reread the first page of this thread again. Brown was sincerely trying to lend K a helping ear and offer advice--not written in stone. Your first post, however, went for the jugular. WHY? Why did this happen? Maybe responding, "I dont understand why brown would not tell the OWH, but she has made a decision not to. However, per the MB outline and principles, one would normally tell the OWH about the affair." Another question: have you, yourself, been in counseling? The reason why I ask this, is that generally, you don't do what you are not comfortable with. (Or has/is both of our several counselours/PHD's been in the "fog" too?)

Liny, I think what you are saying is that its ok to discuss differing opinions as long as they don't disagree WITH YOU. And that is where we disagree. I would not agree that this is a situation where it's best not to tell the BS, so please don't try to get my agreement that all cases are different. You won't get it. You then say its "best to discuss different opinions" but then tell me I have no right to mine. Now, that is hypocritical.

Even so, this has been beaten to death. And I only hope that K certainly does not think that it's wrong to expose this affair. It is the best thing for an affair and certainly the best thing for the victims.

K, I sincerely hope you stopped reading this thread and started a new one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ML> We have wasted 3 plus hours of our life trying to make a point to you ... not that "our way or the highway" ... just a different perspective ... for what?

You do not know me or my H. I originally didn't advocate or discourage K to not "expose" the OW at the workplace. I was simply stating it was not what "best' for me and *MY* situation. You my dear went on a tear ... and attacked me ... you have twisted my words and did not really *READ* anything. I do not have to *JUSTIFY* myself or my actions to you or anyone ... just my God. I have been insulted and there was an attempt to show how *WRONG* I am. I am sorry if I haven't been in *RECOVERY* from my H's A for all that long. However, I am in *RECOVERY* from depresssion for over 3 1/2 years .... I would not/could not put another person into the *HELL*, to suit someone else princples ... I would be compromising my own *RECOVERY* and *MY* morals.

I had not and will not intentionally hurt anyone ... that is something I do not advocate. However, I will do what is right for my -- myself -- my family -- my H and more over my M -- not anyone else's. I don't find it necessary at this time.

Thank you for your *OPINION*. I don't think it'll work for me (now or ever). Apples and oranges!!!!

I hope you do help others that need your help. I don't find that I do.

Oh and K if you have continued to read ... I sincerely hope you have found some pearls of wisdom amongst the ruins. My true intention was to offer *YOU* another "perspective"

brown

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by brown:
<strong> I would not/could not put another person into the *HELL*, to suit someone else princples ... I would be compromising my own *RECOVERY* and *MY* morals.

I had not and will not intentionally hurt anyone ... that is something I do not advocate. However, I will do what is right for my -- myself -- my family -- my H and more over my M -- not anyone else's. I don't find it necessary at this time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Brown, and this is where you are dead wrong. Telling someone the truth is not HARMING THEM, it is helping them. The OWH was hurt by adultery and lies, not by the truth. And you only find it "not necessary" because it doesn't directly benefit you. But what is "neccessary" for HIM, the victim of your husband and his OW? It sure isn't continued lies. What is necessary for him is knowing the TRUTH so he can protect himself from his W and your H.

To NOT tell him CRUEL and in direct contradiction to God's Word. HONESTY is the solution to adultery, not MORE LYING.

Unfortunately, I don't see your H rushing to do the right thing by apologizing to his victim, so the responsibility falls to the next in line, YOU. Sadly, I don't see that happening, because as you said, it doesn't benefit you and you really don't care.

ML> I pay a therapist good money to *HELP* me, and I will probably be in the market for a good MC. (As well, LINY is actively seeking counsel).

I am just scratching my head, b/c you will not ever see what I am telling you. I would like you to take the time and read my direct previous post. It is not the right time to "expose" anything - And from my original post I never said *NOT* to expose the A to whole for that matter. I may be simple ... but then again I simplly stated "what I would" and I never said "K, you are dead wrong!!". I also never said "K, you are dead right". (I don't know her that well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ).

I have reported this entire Thread - b/c I do not think you "behaved" well - you voiced you beliefs and your opinion - which is fine. However, you stopped helping K pages ago and decided to show me how *WRONG* I was. You treated me as if this was my A and I have found myself (and my H) defending my intergrity (only for you to respond "you're dead wrong").

I really did not want to even "respond" to you again. (especially on someone else's post). I feel you will still responde to me (to have the last word) - but until you have re-read what has transpired here and apologize to K and myself - I will not be "responding" to you again.

brown, I won't apologize for disagreeing with you. I don't owe you an apology for disagreeing with you anymore than you owe me one for disagreeing with me.

And yes, I do "see" what you are telling me, I "see" right through it for the for the excuses and rationalizations that it is. I don't agree with your logic that you shouldn't tell him because it's not convenient for you and is "irrelevent" to your marriage. It's not all about you, brown.

<small>[ August 09, 2004, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Happy Monday everyone.

ML: I do understand the underlying reason why you (and so many others) are adamant with your position/opinion in telling the OWH. I do. I really do. All brown was saying, that in her position and situation, it's not right for her. And with that, she was attacked! That, I do not understand.

"Unfortunately, I don't see your H rushing to do the right thing by apologizing to his victim."

If, during our conversations I had with this woman, she told me the truth, then not only is the OW the OW, but also the BS and a victim herself. I'm not going into it further.

"I "see" right through it for the for the excuses and rationalizations that it is. I don't agree with your logic that you shouldn't tell him because it's not convenient for you and is "irrelevent" to your marriage. It's not all about you, brown."

ML, there you go judging again! "I see right through it for the excuses and rationalizations that it is." Are you in this situation? Do you have to live with the choice of 'To tell or not to tell?' You simply don't understand the person who is making the decion, nor do you understand the situation. So instead of judging someone by their decision, if you really want to help someone, give your opinion and explain why. Give reasons. Don't attack. Does nothing except what has happened here.

Brown never said it wasn't "convenient." Again, attacking by twisting words. "Irrelevant?" Absolutely.

"It's not all about you, brown."
Have you ever been through a nervous breakdown? Have you ever been raped? Have you ever been emotionally and physically abused? Have you ever had to raise two kids on your own? Did you go through childhood feeling like you were the black sheep, unwanted, unloved? Do I need to go on?

There...I broke...I "justified" why brown is the way she is. If you don't know someone, stop passing judgements, kindly, please. If you don't know HOW they have become who they are, stop passing judgements, kindly, please.

That's what makes this world as beautiful as it is: each object, each person, everything is just so unique. And that's where we have so many problems in this world. People can't find a balance between their free will with their freedom. Everyone's balance was off one time or another that is here on MB.

Our scale's not broke, ML, just different from yours. Our balance may be off--it certainly has been in the past. But we're working on that. Same scale, though. That's OK. Is it with you?