Double post again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Sorry.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Last night when I came home from work I checked W's phone and she sent a total of 32 messages! My hunch about her apparent lack of withdrawal symptoms as a good job of hiding her feelings was wrong. I think it was bourne out of the need to believe that the A has ended and the overwhelming desire that it be so.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Desperatedan, although me and Toosoon both suspected and had our reasons from personal experience to believe your W is still in contact with the OM, I was however hoping for your sake we were wrong and it wasn’t the case... I’m sorry to hear about this. Your need to believe the A has ended and your desire for it to be so is totally understandable. However, you’re facing reality now… I want to support and emphasize what Toosoon have said. You received straight and honest talk from him. He has been in your shoes and has been in a very similar situation than you… His advice is in line with the MB approach and very effective, so I really think it’s time to consider putting his advice and the MB approach into practice.

Desperatedan, I understand you’re afraid to take drastic steps and use the MB approach… I understand you’re afraid it will drive your W away from you and that you might lose her... You don’t want to hurt her because you love her. You still want to protect her and that’s why you’re afraid to expose the A also to other people than OM’s W, but Desperatedan, sometimes love needs to be cruel to be kind… You might lose her if you don’t take the necessary steps that has been successfully used by thousands of BS’s. You have a better chance of winning her back if you use this approach.

I was not in the exact same situation than your W and Toosoon’s W because my EA stopped before it became too intense, but if you follow through with the advice and MB approach (and possibly plan B if necessary), Toosoon and other experienced BS’s will be there to guide & advice you. I will also help and support where I can, but I might not always be the best person to guide and give practical advice as someone who has been in a much more similar situation than you. Also, because I’m a FWW, I don’t think I’m in a position to be hard on you or to give you a 2 x 4 (if necessary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), and maybe that’s why I come through as more understanding. However, sometimes ‘hard talk’ is necessary and can serve as a wake-up-call. Take it as advice from people who care...people who want your M to be safed and recover. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I guess I'll just use my reserve of patience and just carry on praying and hoping.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true and the right things to do, BUT…this doesn’t mean allowing yourself to be treated disrespectfully and as a doormat by your W… You must love her, fill her EN’s and do anything possible to have a successful plan A, BUT you have to stand on you rights and be firm on the things that’s important to save your M. Desperatedan, if you’re going to be patient with this continuous contact and allowing your W to get away with this disrespectful behavior towards you, there’s a chance that she might start to lose respect for you and treat you more disrespectfully. I know this is not fair, but I just give reality here… If things continue like this, later on your W might get the impression that you don’t really care enough to fight for her. At this stage, your W will be angry towards you and she will blame and resent you if you follow through with this MB approach, but later on, when the fog has lifted and you’re both in recovery, she will feel very proud of the man who has value her enough in spite of her wrong choices and actions to FIGHT for her! Think about that! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she will turn around and say I will end the A but I need more time and that in the meantime she will slowly disengage from the OM. In which case I will have either to accept the situation and keep pushing for her to end it actively (something which I am not doing now because I am keeping to my promise not to discuss the "problem" with her to give her as much neutral time to think) and change my shift so that I could be with her</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Desperatedan, changing your shift is a good idea, but PLEASE don’t do, accept or even consider the things I've put in bold in the above quote! IT WON’T WORK! After my H discovered my inappropriate friendship (D-DAY) I tried to bargain with my H by trying to keep the friendship with OM on appropriate level… I couldn’t stand the thought of having NO contact with OM, so I kept my distance from OM and reduced the amount of e-mails, but this didn’t helped to reduce the feelings and attachment I've developed towards OM… We continued the friendship for 6 months after D-Day… Only after the friendship stopped and I started NC, I could start to get through withdrawal an my personal recovery from the 'addiction'. Yes, it’s extremely hard for the WS to go cold turkey, but that’s the only way… The only solution is NO CONTACT…for the sake of your W’s addiction AND for the sake of you and your M. I’m very serious about this. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Suzet I think you are right, the A/D's must be kicking in because I don't feel that despondent even with the disappointing turn of events. I just hope I don't get hooked on these things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>Don’t worry getting hooked on A/D’s. In my knowledge, most A/D’s are not addictive (especially SRRI’s), but you might experience withdrawal symptoms when stopping it, but don’t worry about this now… Right now the A/D’s is important and necessary and help you cope in these difficult circumstances. I’m using Cipramil (a SRRI) chronically and this drug has really been a ‘life-saver’ to me.

Blessings and prayers to you, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

That was a wonderful message you wrote for DesperateDan. I hope it makes sense to him.

Dan:

When I started exposing my wife, it had an immediate impact on her cozy little secret relationship. My wife did not want the kids to know and I agreed to shelter them from the same pain I was going through. What I didn't know at the time I made the committment not to tell the kids, the OM and her were apartment and furniture shopping. I found this out by checking the history on the computer. Think about this a minute, I agreed to allow her the right to breakup our family and that did not make sense to me. I took action by telling our children, my wife's brother and sister-in-law, and my father. My wife was furious and she cussed me out mercilessly and said she hated me beyond words. She also said our marriage was over permantely and I just blew it forever. Prior to me finding out that she was looking at a apartments, she was telling me that she thought we could rebuild our marriage, but she refused to quit her job where he worked.

I felt like I was losing her anyway so I told her that she either put a stop to the relationship or I was going to tell her mother, the rest of her family, her co-workers, his boss, and her boss. If she had a gun, she would have killed me at that moment. I reinforced my hardball approach, better known as tough love, with her by calling the OM's parents and exposing the affair to them and I told her what I did. I knew the exposure was working and disrupting the affair. The fear of the additional exposure scared her enough to call him and break off the relationship, although it still continued on.

I need to go to a meeting but there is more and I will resume later to help you understand the process as it unfolds. Sorry for the break in the story.

TooSoon

Suzet - After I read your letter I almost broke down. I can see the logic of your arguments but I'm just too scared of the consequences. I cannot bear the thought of W walking out on us. Because I'm sure that if I insist now that she breaks off the A she will not do it. I do feel like a mug but I hope that you would understand that right now being a mug is the last thing I'm worried about. Please let me just see what happens after W's month of decision making. I have a feeling that she would stay with us. Then at that point I can say, okay but you must end the A. If she prevaricates I would make it very hard for her to 1) see him, because they see each other before work, then spend their breaks together, this cannot happen because I will be on the same shift and we'll drive to work in the same car and take our breaks together, 2) exchange text messages because she normally does this when I am at work and she's at home. My being on the same shift would certainly disrupt the A no end. I am not an expert MB practioner but I can follow what Jon did and do Plan A for about six months. Suzet I know I am also living in a fog but I have to do this to hold on to my sanity. I just couldn't risk losing W altogether. It would be devastating for our kids, especially our son and I must admit it will be most devastating for me. As far as her respect for me is concerned I don't think there is much left there anyway, otherwise she wouldn't have gone and have this A. I really am very confused and disoriented by this whole mess, I can't think straight. Let me think this whole thing over and I will get back to this subject.

Toosoon - Like I told Suzet after reading your posts I felt like breaking down. There seems to be an unrelenting inevitablility to our separation. Because I'm sure that if I give her an ultimatum, him or me, she would chose him. At this stage I am not prepared for such an eventuality. Please bear with me because I don't think my pain threshold can bear it at this point. Thanks a lot for the advice. But please at this stage I can only do baby steps, and the first step is exposing the A to OM's wife. I'll look forward to your next posting. I hope your meeting went well.

God Bless you both.

Dan:

Continued post from last message.
The reason my wife continued to see the OM was due to the fact she had daily communication with him. Suzet eludes to the same fact. Even after DD, it took her months to break off the relationship.

My weekly MC session dealt with the fact that my wife wouldn't quit her job and break off her contact with the OM. I told my MC that allowing my wife to have daily contact with her BF, who she fell in love with, was equivelant to telling a heroin addict to stop using heroin but laying a hit of heroin on the table and walking out of the room. The addiction is too great for the addict to quit the heroin and the love is too strong for the lovers to simply walk away from each other without a fight.

When reality is added to the affair and some light begins to shine through the fog, the lovers begin to see each other in a different light and the comparison of the spouse and the lover begins for the WS. The WS begins to see the lover and the spouse as being more equal than during the fog state and the WS will usually choose the spouse and kids over the lover.

I finally got my way and my wife quit her job. Her depression kicked in and then it takes a couple of months to break the addiction with the other person. It is only then that the reconnection period begins with the BS. The timelines can vary from case to case, but the principal is the same on every case.

With all due respects Dan, I believe Suzet is right that you resist our advice due to the fear you feel of losing your wife if you push too hard. Your WW knows that and is using that to her advantage. My wife also attempted to negotiate with me so she could keep her friendship alive with the OM. I hope you come to the point where you see the value in what we are saying to help you speed up the breakup of the affair and to hopefully save your marriage.

Take Care,

TooSoon

Dan:

I just read your last post but I was in the process of completing my second post. I know you are under pressure at home and I think from us. I will lay low from now on so I don't ad to your pressure. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to yell and I will respond. Dan, I cried everyday and I couldn't sleep or function at work or at home. I understand your pain, really I do.

TooSoon

Double Post...Sorry

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

Suzet:

I would like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind. It may help me in my marriage.

Did you feel you were in love with the OM during your EA?

How long did it take to break the A and how long did it take you to reconnect with your husband?

How is your relationship today?

Is your marriage back to normal, better or worse?

Is it different than before the affair?

Was an EN lacking prior to the affair and is it better filled today?

Or Was it a simple act of selfishness on your part?

I am convinced thise affairs happen by accident. My wife really stressed that to me in her remorse stage.

Did you reach the hugging and kissing stage in the EA?

Were you contemplating having sex or getting close to having sex?

Were you considering leaving your husband?

I am curious. You have it together and I respect your posts. Thanks. I am really curious to see how we are doing as a married couple compared to other cases. Thanks

TooSoon

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

Dear Desperatedan, I understand... I also understand your fear…I really do. I can ‘hear’ your pain and I don’t think you’re a ‘mug’ at all. In fact, I think the exact opposite: As I’ve said to you before, I have much admiration and appreciation for your unconditional and agape love towards your WW… I also appreciate & admire your commitment & loyalty to her after all the pain she has put you through and the pain you’re still going through… And I’m sure in time, after your W has gone through all the ‘phases’ (withdrawal and fog), her eyes will open and she will start to appreciate & validate you for all these things.

I’m sorry if you felt pressurized by my posts or advice in any way and like Toosoon, I don’t want to add to your pressure. It’s still your decision and you know what you can and can’t handle at this stage. It’s baby steps but every small step in the right direction is progress. We respect that and whatever you do or decide, we will still advice, help & support you where we can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Toosoon, thanks! I don’t mind answering your questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I gave lengthy answers to your questions and decided to send it as a separate thread since I don’t want to highjack Dan’s thread. My response to your answers is on this thread.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

NO PLEASE DON'T LEAVE!!!!!

Hi TS and Suzet,

I'm sorry if I made you both feel that I was being pressurised by you. In a way you were, but I do understand that comforting words and lullabyes would not suffice. A big hug does help tremendously but I know that that would not be enough. Like I said I do take in what you guys say, it's just at this stage my mind is in such turmoil I'm being pulled in all directions. When you guys say that the WS is living in a fog I think it is not just the WS but also the BS. I know because I can't see through this thing. Please allow me these baby steps, I'm venturing into the unknown here, and I'm scared of falling into the abyss. I am reading "Surviving an Affair" and as I've said earlier I will do what Jon did and Plan A for the next six months. If that doesn't work then let's go to Plan B. I sound like I am "bargaining" on behalf of my W but I am not. I am bargaining for myself and our two children.
I understand that somewhere along the way you would get frustrated with my vacillation (maybe you already are) but please see that the reason for this is not disrespecting your opinion but rather the meanderings of a tortured soul.
Today W sent 19 messages. I am not overly distressed, I rang her from work and although she tried to hide it I could hear in her voice that she was crying. Here we go again I hear you say, yes another straw clutched.
Well guys I hope you carry on listening and please post, your posts are one of the very few things I look forward to when I come home from work. Maybe even helping me keep my sanity. So please don't leave....?
God Bless you.

Hi Guys,

Just a very short note. Suzet I read your replies to TS's questions and I just wish my W would read it. I'm sure a lot of things will resonate with W. Maybe at some future time.
And don't worry about "hijacking my topic" you are now a part of my extended family, just feel free to wander in I need the company.

Goodnight and God Bless

Dan:

Suzet and I will continue to listen and extend our advise as you need it. We are not going anywhere so don't worry. You are reading the right book. There is no exact right time line to live by. If you deem Plan A to be 6 months, that is your call.

Plan B is brought into play to let the WS know that they can't have it both ways but it is also done to prevent the BS from falling out of love for the WS. I felt like I was falling out of love for my wife many times. In fact, I told that to my MC in front of my wife. I told her if she pushed me to the point of "no return" that I would never come back since I am the strength behind saving the marriage.

You made a 30 day promise to your wife and you intend to live up to it. That time will go by fast. Her tears means she is very vulnerable and torn right now. She doesn't wan't to lose her family but she doesn't want to lose her BF either. I think the tears means her conscious is talking to her and she is feeling caught in the middle of the mess she is in. She doesn't know how to get through it either.

In the book, SAA, it clearly spells how the importance of the exposure. That is not part of Plan B but it is part of Plan A. I think Dr. Harley spells out the importance of all the steps to make things work for your marriage.

One hour and one day at a time.

TooSoon

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

Dan:

This is a great article written by Penny Tupa. This is a must read article.

Ending the Affair: Steps You Can Take

© Penny R. Tupy 2004

Infidelity is a thoughtless, selfish, and cruel act. It is perhaps one of the most painful things we can go through as adults. And yet it is an incredible tribute to the resiliency of the human spirit that many can and do recover their marriages, going on to create a relationship that is loving, joyous, and fulfilling. So then the question is: How do we get from here to there?

The first step must be to end the affair and to guarantee that there is no future contact with the affair partner. This step cannot be overstated, overlooked, or skipped. Without ending the affair and a promise of no future contact the marriage cannot fully recover. Attempting to restore the marriage without ending the affair is like attempting to do calculus without knowing how to add and subtract; it’s not possible.

Most affairs burn out and die. An affair is not a relationship based in reality or founded on lasting characteristics such as honesty, integrity, or commitment. They are usually based on passion and fantasy and exist in deceit and secret betrayal. Sometimes the guilt gets to be too much to bear and the affair ends. Sometimes reality and the disapproval of friends, family, and colleagues intrude into the fantasy and the affair ends.

Betrayed husbands and wives can do quite a bit to hasten that process. But to do so they must be able to follow my cardinal rules concerning infidelity:

First rule of what to know when your spouse is having an affair: Your emotions and your instincts will lead you the wrong way 99.9% of the time. Don’t trust them.

Second rule of what to do when your spouse is having an affair: Ignore almost all of what they say they want from you, how they feel about what you are doing to fix the marriage and any talk about it "being over, get over it."

You cannot base decisions about what to do on either of those things. Neither is objective and both are destined to fail. Instead we put together a two pronged strategy based on intellect that simultaneously addresses problems within the marriage and suggests actions to end the affair.

Addressing Preexisting Problems in the Marriage
Let’s start with addressing problems in the marriage. When a husband or wife comes to me with the information that their mate is involved with someone outside the marriage one of the things I do is to help them identify issues that might have led to their spouse’s emotional disconnect. We talk about things they may have done or are doing that are painful for their spouse. I especially dig for signs of anger, control, and disrespect since these things are so destructive in intimate relationships. They can cause one partner to put up emotional walls to protect themselves. Those walls also make it easy to create a relationship outside the marriage.

Next we talk about the things that would make the partner happy in marriage and which might have been neglected. Conversation, affection, recreational time as a couple, and sex, are among the top needs, but it could also be the financial picture or a health issue, or something else.

With that information we can put together a detailed strategy to make changes in the marriage. Now let me say loud and clear that conflicts or neglect in marriage are never an excuse for infidelity. Although there are many reasons why men and women have affairs, there are no excuses. It is an unethical way to escape problems in the marriage and to seek happiness for oneself at the expense of the spouse, the marriage, and the family. Ferreting out this information and making changes is in no way meant to cast blame on the faithful partner. It is simply a strategy to entice the straying partner to end the affair and to commit to recovering the marriage.

Most betrayed spouses do this part so well. I can’t think of any I’ve known or worked with who won’t bend over backwards to rectify their part in the deterioration of the marriage. They throw their heart and soul into making themselves and the marriage better.

Being Proactive about Ending the Affair
It’s the second part of the strategy for ending affairs that I have trouble convincing people to do. And that is taking action to end the affair. That’s where the emotions and the instincts get in the way. It’s where fear intrudes, and where the desire to do anything to make the unfaithful spouse happy at all costs creates an atmosphere that is enabling. Because most understand that affairs eventually burn out, they erroneously believe that they must sit back and wait for that to happen. Not so!! They can and should take proactive steps to expose and end the affair. The sooner it ends the better it will be for the marriage.

Confronting
How and when to confront a wayward spouse is a question that looms large in the minds of all betrayed partners. And then there is the whole question of how much do you disclose in your confrontation. Being somewhat confrontational by nature, and having strong beliefs about the necessity of rigorous honesty, I did a little research on what some of the big name experts have to say on the subject. Most did not have the need for honesty in the marriage at the forefront of their suggestions, and not all were advocates of saving the marriage.

Michele Weiner-Davis, author of Divorce Busting, The Divorce Remedy, and The Sex Starved Marriage, has a few things on the topic in her book The Divorce Remedy. (She also has some great comments about divorce attorneys, but that’s a topic for another day…) Davis addresses the issue within the context of internet infidelity, and there she recommends that you do these things if you suspect your mate is involved in an internet or real life affair:

Be specific about what is troubling you and why Own your feelings (From The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis © 2001 published by Fireside pp.221-222)

She goes on to discuss reactions that you may encounter, and how to address different scenarios. Davis’ goal is to do everything possible to save the marriage and to restore love and trust. This is very much in keeping with my views on confronting and on being a strong advocate for saving marriages.

Shirley Glass in her new and very highly acclaimed book, Not Just Friends, has this to say:
She starts of by stating that “confronting is not the same thing as attacking,” that confronting is a meeting for clarification and that attacking is a “hostile offensive that involves accusations, criticisms, and abuse.”

Glass’ guidelines for before you confront:


Know what you want to gain and be open with your partner about that goal. Don’t set truth traps – discover the truth directly rather than through ensnarement. She gives the example “If your child leaves a trail of cookie crumbs you shouldn’t ask, ‘Did you have a cookie today?’ Start out by saying, ‘I saw the cookie crumbs, tell me the truth about how many cookies you ate before dinner.’” Give yourself time to cool down and become calm Consider writing your thoughts first in order to gain clarity Glass’ guidelines for the confrontation:

Choose a time and place where you are unhurried and free from distractions Do not confront on the telephone Stick to the facts as you know them: What you know. What you saw. What you’ve been told. The contradictions between what your partner has told you and what you’ve discovered. Say how these lies and discrepancies make you feel. (From Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass, Ph.D. © 2003 published by Free Press pp. 77-79)

Putting all that together, here are my thoughts on confronting. I am so strong in my beliefs regarding the need to be honest in marriage that I believe only the fear of abuse should be reason to withhold information about how you feel, what you know, or in this case what you suspect. I think that honesty is so essential to the well-being of the marriage that fears of repercussions based on honest sharing are not grounds for withholding information -- with the exception stated above regarding the fear of abuse. So having said that, this is what I recommend.

As soon as you are uncomfortable with something your mate is doing, speak up! You don’t have to accuse your partner of anything, remember, honesty is about you. Say, “I’m uncomfortable (worried, afraid….) of the time you are spending at work or with such and such a person.” Speak up every time you feel uncomfortable or that information you have doesn’t match what you’re being told. Don’t let time (and an affair) drag on while you dig for hard evidence. It’s more important to do your best to stop a suspected affair by sharing what you know than it is to be able to prove you are right. You don’t even need to call it an affair, simply state that you are uncomfortable or offended by the relationship your spouse has with the other person. There’s no need to get caught up in arguing about what it’s called, the point is to express how you feel.

If your honest sharing of how you feel goes unaddressed, continue to dig for information and to share what you find and how you feel about it. Use the information elsewhere in this newsletter to address problems in the marriage and to work on enticing your partner to end the affair and to recommit to the marriage. Expose the affair as soon as you are reasonably certain your suspicions are correct.

Exposing
Affairs flourish in secrecy; if affair partners thought for a moment that their friends and family could see them or would find out, infidelity would be far less common! So one of the first things I suggest is that the faithful spouse tells. Tells who? Tells the spouse of the other party, tells their family members, tells their church leader, tells the boss if it is a workplace affair. Exposing an affair to the harsh light of day and to the scrutiny of friends and family will almost always hasten its demise. I encourage the faithful partner to contact the spouse of the lover. Not only is this a likely ally in working to end the affair, it is certain to cause repercussions for the betraying partners.

Exposing the affair creates conflict within the unfaithful relationship. The coupling that seemed to be so perfect, so wonderful, so special, suddenly takes on an air of sordidness. Dealing with the disapproval of friends and family can make the relationship seem less than the ideal fantasy it once appeared to be. Hurt feelings and arguments are likely to ensue within the affair relationship as each partner struggles with layers of conflict, guilt, embarrassment or even shame. Eventually the partners become less attractive to each other as the fantasy evaporates under the light of exposure.

In addition to telling, and perhaps more importantly, I encourage the faithful spouse to be honest with the mate about how s/he feels regarding the affair. It is essential that the straying partner hear loud and clear from their mate that the relationship they are having outside the marriage is painful in the extreme for their spouse. Honesty of this sort is difficult. I help men and women learn the skills to share their feelings honestly without being disrespectful or losing their temper in the process.

For men and women caught in the nightmare of a mate’s betrayal taking these steps to expose and to express how they feel can be, and almost always is, incredibly frightening. Husbands and wives doing all they can to persuade their erring partner to end the extra marital relationship and to commit to the marriage are terrified of doing anything that might upset the other person. It’s a natural fear, and one that must be overcome in order to do everything possible to end the affair. Remember, emotions and instincts will take you down the wrong path more often than not, when it comes to dealing with a spouse’s affair.

I tell husbands and wives to think of infidelity as an addiction, which indeed it is, and to keep that in mind when they are making choices about how to handle it. If their spouse was addicted to cocaine or heroin they would be willing to do whatever it takes to get them away from the source of the addiction and into recovery, regardless of how upset their addicted partner becomes. Ending an affair is much the same. The straying partner is addicted to the other person, and the only way to get to recovery is to end the relationship and ensure that contact never occurs in the future.

Yes, they will certainly become angry when necessary steps are taken to do just that. The waiting partner must look beyond the anger to see that it is triggered by the addiction and that the person they love and married is not able to think clearly or rationally. When the source of the addiction is removed and other steps for recovery are taken, eventually the fog will clear and the anger will dissipate over time.

Separating to Save the Marriage
Dealing with the infidelity of a spouse is emotionally draining and incredibly painful. The longer the affair continues the more wearing it is on the waiting spouse. Given enough time the betrayed partner will eventually lose all respect and all feelings of love for their mate. When that happens, the likelihood of reconciliation and of restoring the marriage is virtually nil.

To avoid getting to that place I recommend that the injured partner set a time limit for executing the above suggestions. If the affair has not ended and the spouse recommitted to the marriage in that time then I strongly encourage the faithful partner to separate from the marriage. I have a several reasons for doing so.

First is to safeguard whatever energy the faithful partner has for reconciling when the affair ends, and to maintain whatever feelings of love still remain. This is accomplished when there is no contact with the unfaithful spouse and the daily pain of witnessing the affair is no longer taking place.

Second, it sends a clear message to the wayward spouse that the affair is no longer going to be tolerated. Explicit in the way the separation is implemented is the message that the spouse wants the marriage to continue but only in a way that is beneficial for both of them. Separation under these terms returns a level of empowerment to the betrayed spouse who has probably been feeling very disempowered throughout this ordeal.

When the betrayed spouse sets this boundary affair couples are often thrown together even more than they were before. Although this may seem counter productive to ending the affair, with more time together it is likely the fantasy world of the affair will collapse and that reality will begin to set in. Issues that never came up in the past suddenly intrude. Things such as finances, child care, irritating habits, and even laundry can serve to destroy the illusion of the affair.

And finally the hope is that with the changes that the faithful partner has been making, eliminating hurtful behavior and learning skills to meet the partner’s needs, when the affair ends the spouse will be willing to consider returning to the marriage.

Separation is risky, and it is not to be undertaken lightly. But there comes a time when continuing to be available within the marriage and enduring the pain of the affair is counter productive. It becomes enabling. And it can become the final death knell of the marriage when the faithful partner experiences enough pain to completely destroy any willingness to reconcile after the affair.

For additional Penny Tupa Information, Here is her link. She understands infidelity well.

http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com/sitemap.html

Read as much as you can for knowledge is power.

TooSoon

Dear Dan,

Don’t worry, we won’t go anywhere and we are right here to help, support & advice you where we can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Toosoon send you some great articles and I think all the additional information is very insightful and will prepare you for the necessary steps you might have to take within the near future. However, we understand you’re not ready for this and still waiting for the 30 days of decision making to pass.

Dan, I agree with Toosoon that your W’s tears indicate she’s very vulnerable, torn & emotional right now. Toosoon is probably right when he said the tears means her conscious is talking to her and she is feeling caught in the middle of the mess and doesn't know how to get through it… It might be a very good time to give her a ‘listening ear’ and encourage her to confide in you and be honest & open to you about her feelings.

I’ve searched for a post I’ve sent to these forums back in January 2003. It was 2 months after I’ve discovered MB and decided to commit myself to the MB principles and NC. On this stage, I was still in withdrawal and torn between my feelings for OM and my commitment to my H & M. I sent this post a few months before I became depressed again and went back to my counselor for IC and A/D’s. Some of the things in this post might give you insight & understanding into your W’s feelings and the things she probably struggling with herself. Here it is:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned from all of this is that you can’t judge another until you have walked in the same shoes as them and have done the same mistakes… Before what happened to me, I was very judgmental towards people who allowed themselves into situations like this, I NEVER thought something like this would EVER happen to me, but now I can better understand and have empathy for the feelings/pain of people who have been in similar situations. This can happen to everyone if not cautious and careful! The best is to avoid any close opposite sex friendships.

Yes, to have an EA/improper friendship is VERY WRONG, but before you’ve not been in the same situation, you can’t fully understand the emptiness, the pain, the loss, the grief, the guilt and all the emotions involved for WS's trying to recover from the consequences of having an EA/improper friendship and also from missing the OP/EA/friendship. In my situation I know the feelings I've had have been WRONG but it was the huge sense of loss for the OM and for this fantasy-type friendship, which have been very difficult for me to recover from (and I’m still in recovery). It was and sometimes is still very hard for me to accept the fact that maybe this friendship was based on all kinds of false pretenses and lies from the OM’s side all along and that maybe he was only pretending to be a trusting and caring friend and Christian (like he said he was). This was the hardest part for me…

Sometimes I still have so many questions, but I know I must just totally forget about everything and get it behind and over with for good. It’s just difficult sometimes. The loss of this close friend who appeared to understand me and listen so well and appeared to really have my best interest at heart, my ‘soul mate’, now seem like someone who was only ‘playing games’ on me all the time and this is very hard to accept and elaborate. To let go of the resentment and get over it, is the right and proper thing to do, I know, but it is not all that easy – it takes time and hard work on myself and focus on my H and M. I also learned to appreciate my H more than ever. He is the one with the really good qualities and the one who really cares for me and love me and whom I can trust.

Maybe I "deserved" the pain I have been going through, because like ‘legalette’ said in her response yesterday: “…you may have been somewhat naive, and I really do think that on some level you knew that what you were doing was wrong…” Yes, she is right, deep down while I was having this friendship it felt very wrong sometimes, especially when the friendship and feelings became inappropriate but at the time I was already addicted to this OM/friendship. The fact is, the pain “deserved” is real, and the healing to some extent really takes time. And at the same time, through your pain and grief, you must also put your focus on your H and M, take responsibility for your actions and also put yourself in your H (BS) shoes in order to fully understand the effect this had on him and the pain you've caused him… Sometimes it can be very hard and difficult trying to recover from the emotions on both sides of the coin: On the one side recovering from your own pain and loss and on the other side to deal with the pain you've caused your H and work on that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God bless,
Suzet

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Hi Guys,

Thanks for staying on. It is Friday night, 11:00 p.m. to be exact. The house is very quiet. My son is asleep, quite tired having gone back to school today after the summer break. My daughter is in her bedroom watching TV, my wife in bed, and I'm here in the lounge typing this thing out. I came home from work and had a pleasant talk with W, not about THE problem but just about everything else. We talk at length about what happened in Russia with the school kids and the seige. We conversed amiably like old times, as if THE problem never existed. I left her to watch the 10:30 news because I although she described to me what happened in Russia, I just couldn't watch it. I don't need those images to add to my deppression! Are we, W and I, just sweeping THE problem under the carpet, like all those times when we knew something was going wrong with our relationship but chose to ignore it, or is this part of the rebuilding process. I ask because ever since DDay we haven't had a decent conversation about anything. Tonight I felt really at ease and close to her. There was no tension. I hope this carries on into the weekend.
I am rather tired now after exploring the Chechnya problem, we discussed the Iraq fiasco, and then we agonised over the Israel/Palestine stalemate which we concluded was a vital part of the whole "terrorist threat", I think all in all we covered all the problems of the world (except in our world) and I am ready for bed. Toosoon thanks for the article by Penny Tupa and Suzet thanks for sharing your earlier posting which I read with great interest. I just wish my W would read these. I will send you another post tomorrow re your postings of today, in the meantime I will have to go to bed and savour the pleasant evening with W.
God Bless you both.

Hi Guys,

Toosoon, I reread the article by Penny Tupa and I am beginning to see the benefits of exposure. But first I must respect the one month agreement I made with W. After which if she chooses to stay with me (at this stage I am almost sure that she will, unless all these text messages are about making plans to make the break) then I will insist that the A must end. Again I am almost certain the W will bargain and say it will take time but at this point I will let her set the time tables so it doesn't appear that the ultimatum was from me. In the meantime I will slowly expose the A first to the OM's wife, then to bosses at work, then to a few work colleagues. I know that the consequence of this might be that W will leave and be with the OM (although I still don't know how that will work out since the OM is still married, although he allegedly doesn't love his W anymore) But it might be a good chance for them to experience a relationship shielded by the cocoon of secrecy. I still have to flesh out the minutae of this strategy but I think the framework is there. Toosoon I think Penny Tupa's article was a great spur in pushing me to make this decision.
Suzet what do you think my outline of my plans?

I'm sorry guys but I took some sleeping feels and it is starting to affect me. W sent 19 text messages today so I said I can't cope and would b otherwise in bed tossing and turning, this way I will be asleep right after I hey my pillow.

More power to you guys. And God Bless you all. I will include you in my intentions during tomorrow's Mass.

DesDan:

Your plan sounds like you are going to take the needed pro-active approach to your difficult situation. I have done so much reading since my own ordeal and exposure is the thing that alters and disrupts the affair more than anything.

Let's assume you start with the OM's wife. She will come unglued with the OM and he will probably be doing dances to get her to stay with him. The first thing she will demand is for him to kill the relationship with your wife. Let's hope that is the case anyway.

Penny Tupa's article is very good. There are many individual testamonials on the boards too attesting to the success of exposure. By doing nothing, you have a greater chance of losing your wife than by exposing the affair. Once the exposure happens and the turmoil that follows kicks into high gear, your wife's affair will be disrupted and different forever. Now the "feelgood" relationship will be associated with pain, suffering, fear, turmoil, humiliation, stress, grief, and most importantly REALITY.

The disruption and turmoil will cause some light to shine in through the fog and your wife will finally start hearing your spoken words of love, family, children, marriage, and unity causing her to slowly respond to you. BTW, regarding the recent talk of Russia, etc. with your wife, I suspect that was small talk, at best. The emessages tells the bigger story.

I suspect, like Suzet and my wife, she will not easily fall out of love with the OM and that is an issue you will have to deal with later. I am not going to start stressing with you now the importance of No Contact but in time I will. You will find that disrupting the affair by exposure is not enough to solve your problems, but it is an absolutely necessary part of the process of winning your wife back. Complete No Contact will be necessary for both participants so the feelings don't cause them to start the affair over again.

Remember, everything I am saying has worked for thousands of couples before me, plus I have personally lived this ordeal myself. In fact, I am still dealing with issues as a result of the affair. Dan, your life will be altered forever as Suzet's has and mine has.

By the way, maybe your prayers are being answered by you finding MB and reading all the information from Penny Tupa and Suzet, etc. It is now up to you to listen and act upon the information you are learning. Welcome to Infidelity 101. It is probably better described as "hell on earth", but we will all get through it somehow.

Take care.

TooSoon

Hi Toosoon,

The phone messages haven't stopped in fact if anything they're increasing. I hope my suspicions are wrong, but I am now thinking maybe they are planning something, like living together or have my W rent a place somewhere when this month is over. I have this ability to convince myself that what I want will happen, and I have been telling myself that she will stay after this month (which ends by the 21st of September when she goes back to work). I've been reading too much into her attitude about the future, like the plans for our garden, making the trips to University with our daughter in early October, and her noncommittal response to my changing shifts to be with her. I thought she would have objected to this because this will surely disrupt the A. But then again if I let the less dominant emotion take over, pessimism, I could say that she is letting me fall into a false since of security and one day she would just say, "I am leaving..." Well Toosoon if she does I will be devastated, but at the same time I will welcome the end of this uncertainty. I often ask myself how can anybody be this cruel and hurtful? I came home from church this morning and W was out walking the dog. When she came back I checked her phone and she had sent a total of 14 messages. I am wondering whether I should just stop checking her phone so I don't get hurt and disappointed. What I don't know won't hurt me. But I still want to know just in case she doesn't send anymore and finally break the A off. Although at this point in time the chances of that happening is 100 to 1.
Toosoon right now my kids and the wife are talking in the background, I am thinking how can she sit there in front of her kids while behind our backs she is slowly destroying our lives? How can she do this????? Sometimes I love her so much it hurts, and sometimes I hate her I want to tell her how cruel and hurtful and inconsiderate and disrespectful she is. This one month soul searching is so cruel especially since she asked me to stop putting any pressure on her and all the time she is talking with the OM! Sometimes I still feel like leaving and let her deal with the mess. The only thing stopping me from leaving are the children.
Today at church I prayed that God lead her out of this A, tonight I shall pray that God decide what is best and if it means separation and so be it. Toosoon sorry but I am just so frustrated and helpless and abandoned. When will this A/D's kick in?
I must stop this because I am getting more agitated. Thanks for listening, and God Bless you.

Dan:

Unfortunately, so many of us have been in your exact shoes. I felt like it hurt worse than the death of my mother due to the uncertainty and because it hangs on so long.

My wife was planning her departure along with making me feel like there was a chance we could work things out. Your wife is SO addicted right now, she is not seeing you and the kids being hurt or if she sees it, she doesn't care. Her fog is too thick for anything right now.

Your gut is telling you something yet you still think this a time to be honorable. It is not a time to live up to your wife's time lines. It is a time to disrupt her time lines. She is lying to you and cheating on you daily and you must fight back NOW. Not at the end of some concocted self imposed time period. Once she leaves, if she does, or when she does, it will be easier for her to stay away and she may even get comfortable in her new life with the OM. They reach a point when they say the damage is aready done so who cares what I do next. I think you are better off to try and prevent her from leaving you and the kids. It will be harder if they both leave their spouses to fight to get her to move home.

Your resignation to the fact that she may leave you tells me you have nothing to lose at this point but to tell the world. Don't wait till next week, do it today. Don't wait till tomorrow, do it today. You must break their plans at all costs. Your marriage is at stake and you know it. She will blame you know matter what the outcome is so you have nothing to lose.

I paid $300 to a company to cross reference phone numbers and to search out relatives of the OM so I could could expose my FWW's OM to his family, which I did. I was hell-bent and planning on ruining his career if I lost my wife to him. I fought with a vengence to save my marriage and if my marriage couldn't be saved, I wanted to expose the hypocracy of my Christian wife and her lover to her family, his family and their co-workers, and bosses, etc. There was going to and there had to be a price for them to pay.

I knew at some time in the future she would take the OM to a family function and I was going to make their future life as uncomfortable as possible. By exposing the relationship to my kids, my son told his mother he will NEVER have anything to do with the OM and her if she divorces me and ruins the family due to her affair. She now was forced to factor that reality into her affair and into her new relationship.

I felt I had everything to gain and nothing to lose. She was apartment and furniture shopping and tucking money away preparing to leave me anf the kids. This guy was 18 years younger than my wife and she still couldn't recognize the fact that there was no chance in hell their relationship would or could last. She was too thick in the fog and was blinded by her fantasy love for her BF.

I cannot stress to you to go against your moral beliefs that your formerly loyal wife deserves your utmost respect for her to enable her to walk away without a hard fought battle from you first. I call this misplaced loyalty for all the wrong reasons. She will actually come to recognize and realize how much you love her. Minimize the damages and expsoe them to everyone. You know how to reach the OM's wife and you know what you need to do so do it now. I see the urgency in your case to act NOW.

God Bless you Dan,

TooSoon