</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sorry for keeping silent. Am just a bit disorientated by recent events. Don't worry I'm still in one piece and things are looking up. Will update you soon. TS thanks for the postings will comment on them later. Just presently a bit preoccupied. Sorry about being cryptic will explain later.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How are things going Dan, give us an update when you can.

TooSoon

Hi Guys,

In the past couple of weeks W and I rode the roller coaster of our lives and are still riding it and hanging on for dear life.
My wife admitted that although she is no longer in touch with the OM they still haven't ended the affair. They sort of agreed to lie low for a while until things quieted down. I told her that we cannot go on like this. I gave her the choice, stay and end the affair or go. I said a lot of things that may be LB's but I felt like not caring anymore. I told her that I just want to get on with my life, that this limbo is like hell on earth. Well after a lot of "speeches" on my part W slowly opened up and said that she is not sure what she wants to do. She also said when I asked her if the OM is the man, that one can never be sure. Which tells me that either the OM is not committing himself or she really is not sure of how their "relationship" is going to prosper. So finally after more calm and I hoped reasoned conversations W said that she will end the affair today. She asked me if she could see him and tell him to his face because if she does otherwise (like the last time on the phone) he might think that she was under duress, which I must admit she was because I was there watching her do it. So I agreed and they are meeting at 10:00 am today during his break (by the way W and I have got the week off) in broad daylight in a car park. We have agreed on several points. I would still be checking her cellphone for any messages, and she also agreed to inform me if he gets in touch again. I think this is tremendous progress.
I'll update you on what happens today. Sorry for the silence but the ride was too rough at times.
God Bless you.

Dan, I’ve just noticed you are around this morning… How are you doing? Please update us. We are concerned about you.

Greetings and blessings,
Suzet

Edited to add:
Dan, I've just noticed you have already posted this morning, so you can ignore this post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm going to read your update now. I'm glad you're back!

Suzet

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Well Dan, I’ve read your update and it was very disappointing... In the first place I’m disappointed that your W is continuing the A under your nose and secondly I’m disappointed in you for not don’t taking the necessary steps me and Toosoon laid out to you SO many times... WHY are you still so resistant to expose the A to everyone when you have nothing to loose at this point and if full exposure is the ONLY thing that can safe your M at this point? I just don’t understand… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anyway, good luck...
Suzet

Dan, I’m sorry if I sound so negative but you gave your W SO many chances in the past and she screwed it up…

She promised you SO many times that she would end the A but she didn’t kept her word...

I’m sorry, but I don’t believe your W when she says she will end the A today…

Even if she is convinced that she will end the A and tell him straight in his face, I have serious doubts…

If you are not going to take the necessary step and expose to EVERYONE to put pressure on this A from outside, your W and OM will get in contact with each other again…

At this point and after all that happened, I don’t believe your W have the strength to keep NC with OM and end the A once and for all if you aren’t going to take the above steps…

Her weakness is just too strong and you are suppose to know this by now…

You know what you need to do, but you still don’t do it… And I know your next words will probably be:

”I’m going to give her another chance and if she still continues with the A after today and get in contact with OM, THEN I will expose…”

But you know what Dan? You’ve said the above words SO many times in the past but then, every time your W contacted the OM and break her promises to you, you decided to postponed the exposure and give her yet ANOTHER chance…

And this time you’re doing EXACTLY the same again Dan…

The past is just repeating itself here Dan… Now you have to wait again to see if your W will really end the A and have NC with OM...

It's just a vicious cycle Dan...

How long before you’re finally going to put an end to this and do what you need to do?

How much more pain are you willing to take Dan? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You can view this post as a 2 x 4... And I hope I've said something that will bring you to your senses and lift you out of your 'fog'...because you are in a 'fog'...

Maybe my post sound harsh, but I say all these things because I care for the recovery of your M...

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Dan, please read this excellent post by Noodle (a BS). It will give you more insight into yourself, your fears as a BS etc.

Suzet: Excellent post by Noodle.

Dan: I think Dr. Harley said that WS's & their lover always want one more goodbye since their affair is "now" over. In fact, he said, they would prefer it be a one week cruise or vacation to a far away romantic land so they can really say their "last" goodbye. Allowing her to see the OM today will not only set her back emotionally, but she and he are probably planning their next approach to keeping the affair alive.

Personally, you are at the time of your relationship where your wife cannot choose between either party and that is the time to kick her out and to move from Plan A into Plan B. Eliminate all contact with her completely.

Plan C, which you have opted for, is brushing the affair under the carpet, not dealing with it or ending it properly, and allowing the relationship to continue internally within the lovers which will likely lead to divorce at some time. I believe only 35% of marriages survive after affairs. If one party vacillates, the odds to save the marriage are nill.

I don't think I am able to help you since my only experience reflected my wife'w willingness to walk away from her OM, even though the pain was great. That, of course, was after much exposure took place and with her knowlegde of my plan to continue with exposure to everyone she knew. I implemented exposure on two occasions and layed out my plan to continue with more. To prevent further humiliation, she conceded against her inner feelings and own desire. It was only then, did we have a chance to reconnect. Exposure and her fear of more exposure became my tool and my friend to break the relationship. The love from me, our 20 year marriage, and her two children were not enough to break the affair.

You might consider putting on spyware on your computer since I have every reason to believe they will continue with their affair. Here is one to consider. If you insist on being an enabler in the affair, you might as well know the exact words they are saying to each other if the computer becomes their newest communication tool.

http://www.software4parents.com/iambigbrothersoftware.html?hop=911kit

Sorry that things remain the same.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr. Harley said that WS's & their lover always want one more goodbye since their affair is "now" over. In fact, he said, they would prefer it be a one week cruise or vacation to a far away romantic land so they can really say their "last" goodbye. Allowing her to see the OM today will not only set her back emotionally, but she and he are probably planning their next approach to keeping the affair alive.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this. Dr Harley said the best way to end an A is with a NO CONTACT LETTER. The BS must agree with the contents of the letter and the letter must be signed by both the BS and WS. Allowing your W to meet the OM personally was a mistake IMO. Here are Dr Harley’s exact words on how the A should end:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is never seeing or communicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place.

You may feel that after an affair a marriage doesn't amount to much anyway. But the way I suggest ending an affair in this Q&A column will give your marriage the greatest opportunity for a complete recovery.

Affairs usually take place because they meet important emotional needs. But most affairs meet only some emotional needs not met in marriage, leaving others that are being met by a spouse. That fact usually rules out the possibility of divorce, at least for the spouse having the affair. The wayward spouse knows that the lover, for some reason, is not able to meet some of the needs met by his or her spouse. So most affairs are never intended to lead to divorce and remarriage, but are "safety-valve" relationships that satisfy a need not met in marriage.

Having drawn the above conclusion about the nature of affairs, it should be obvious why most wayward spouses would like their affairs to go undetected. Not only do they want to avoid all the unhappiness that goes with discovery, but they also want to continue the affair as long as it meets needs not met in marriage. In most cases, a lover only meets one or two emotional needs, while the spouse meets others. Unfaithful spouses usually don't want their marriages to end, and yet they want emotional needs met that the spouse does not meet. Discovery of the affair, in most cases, would ruin the "solution" to their problem.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Dan, here is something from another thread I also want you to read. It was posted by star*fish:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exposure is one of the strongest and most necessary parts of ending affairs....especially when NC cannot be established or affairs have become entrenched. The right time to do it is Plan A. Why? Because in Plan B....it is viewed far more as revenge, sour grapes and simply vindictive. When you are actively trying to save your marriage is when you should expose.

The model of exposure I like best is done in steps. Because exposure is so traumatic...and can cause huge withdrawals...do the exposure that is necessary. Is the OM married...if so...then exposure begins with his wife. Wat and I recently discussed this....he called it a model of concentric circles:

At the center is the WS....they are the first to be told what you know and how you know it. Just outside of that circle is the other BS (if there is one). Together...they are the first line of defense against no contact. If contact ends....exposure goes no farther. If contact continues after it has been revealed to them....close family (parents, siblings on both sides) plus a trusted pastor or priest... are the next circle. If contact ends...it goes no further. If contact resumes, close friends/neighbors who are also friends of the marriage would be informed. If contact still continues....the last circle are work and church.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Suzet:

Star*Fish was the first person that came to my aid when I was desperate for help. She was so good and her advice was right on the money. I did stair-step the approach to exposure as was pointed out in your post. I was also afraid of using exposure for I knew it was going to drive my WW away for good. I learned it had the opposite effect on her. She was furious and told me she hated me but she did not want more people to find out. It was like I had something to hold over her head and I used it to my advantage.

I exposed and then told my WW. NC did not happen so I exposed some more and told her again. I even spelled out for her my exact plan and detailed everyone who was going to find out. After I called her lovers' parents, she started taking me serious. It was shortly after that she agreed to quit her job and implement true NC with her OM.

I know of no other way to save a marriage and to still allow the WS to remain in contact with the OP.

TooSoon

Hello suzet and TS,
Dan has been keeping in-touch with me regarding what's happening in his life. I find it extremely harsh of you to jump on him when he opens up and shares information with you both. How could you think that he would return with such response made on your behalf? I would think that you would support him in anyway possible, meaning if he even "weakens", yes you are trying to help him, but it is easier to listen then to follow. He isn't a child to be scolded, he is human and he hurts, such as his wife is now. Marriage Builders should remain Marriage Builders, and to build a marriage back up again takes lots of work, not just running to tell others about an affair. What would you suggest if, Dan was to follow your advice and tell the OM's W about the A
and in return the OM's W sets out to hurt Dans W?
Now What? do you feel in all honesty that this will help build-up their marriage? I don't. Anyway
nobody said this is going to be easy, therefore, I can only hope Dan will feel comfortable to come back to Marriage Builders if he truly feels in his heart he needs your support. Dan, has spoken highly of you in the past, so I trust, you both to understand his situation and his weakness at this time. I wish you the best of luck!

Dan:

I am truly sorry for any added pain I have caused you. I am not a counsellor, but just a guy who was trying to help. I don't know of any other way to help other than to express what I personally experienced and what worked for me.

There are so many talented and experienced people on this forum who can be of much help to you. Please come back to MB and use the forum in a way it can help and benefit you. I would suggest you start a new thread and tell other MB people what is going on in your case.

I will not interfer nor force my opinions on you any longer. I absolutely wish you the best with your marriage. Take care and take life one day at a time.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooSoonToBeComfortable:
<strong>There are so many talented and experienced people on this forum who can be of much help to you. Please come back to MB and use the forum in a way it can help and benefit you. I would suggest you start a new thread and tell other MB people what is going on in your case.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dan, this is true and I think it will be a good thing to start a new thread. It's time for you to move on and get opinions and advice from other members as well, although I must warn you that you will probably receive similar advice from other members too... No person here will support the enabling and/or continuing of an A - no matter if you're BS or WS... The advice you'll receive from most members on these boards is based on Dr Harleys principles etc. and unfortunately exposure is one of them. Anyway, it's your choice and only you will know what's best for you and your M...

I wish you well. I truly hope things will work out for you and your W... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Hi TS and Suzet,

I'm back like a bad dream. W and I are still together, just. She has agreed to go on the opposite shift from OM. A small step for some, a giant step for me.

Blessed Christmas to you all.