oops double post

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

Roughroad, you make a good point. I am thinking about this from a plan A point of view. I know that often when people begin to council with SH he changes their plans drastically.

I want GC to think about his plan A and see if there are things that could be done much better. I think there are.

Graycloud, I don't have much time now to develop this, but can you think of a way to communicate with her.

Email could work if you were to tell her you miss having someone to talk to - and you just want to do mail for that, but not talk about the D. If you feel she would not respect your request, and that she would begin to bomb you again, then don't do it, because it would take the LB down so fast you would quit.

If you did say something like this, you could journal your days by writing to her, and tell her what was going on in your life - and put in things about how nice it would be if she could share it with you, specific things you miss (I thought about your smile, and I realized I miss it.)

There are things you admire - but you are loosing your love for her, and your mind re-writes history too, and you have a hard time remembering because you shut it all out to make it less painful.

Maybe you can call her up and tell her you miss the sound of her voice and just want to talk for a few minutes. (heck of a time difference, but should only be 20 or 30 bucks.) Ask her if she is having fun, tell her you wish you were with her, see what she thinks about you getting a pup.

Things this will do -

Show her you value her opinion (admiration)
Fill her need for comminication.
Give affection (I miss you, and your voice.)

Now, you think on it and see what you can come up with. I think there are lots of things you can do as long as you are still in plan A.

Did she ever ask you to not call her anymore?

Now, as I said, I don't have much time right now, and there are many more ideas where these come from. Lets work on it some more.

SS

SS, she has not asked me not to contact her. The divorce papers say something about harrassment, but it's boilerplate.

She is back from her vacation, but I have not heard anythng from anybody.

One form of contact I still have a perfectly good justification for is this: I send her a check once a month to cover my share of the medical insurance. Both I've sent so far I put in very cool cards, the kind they sell at boutiques that you can frame and put on your wall. I've put nice, friendly, casual messages in both. In the last one, which I sent just before her trip, I included a real four-leaf clover (not the easiest thing to come by).

I wonder how she views these cards. I can imagine she almost looks forward to them. She gets a little money, a pleasant, not-too-heavy message, and some meaningful little token. Except they probably make her feel very guilty.

I can do that again in a week or two. But if I'm going to try and talk to her, I think I should call her directly. That will take some courage for me at this point, but I can do it. I agree that it might be time for me to reach out to her, but this must be done very carefully. I love the idea of putting together some kind of plan. I'm really running out of time. I have probably no more than a month before official divorce proceedings start.

GC

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

First, I am sorry for not responding a little sooner. I do think there are things you can do, but I have a limited time to explore them with you. I hope to plant ideas, and let you explore them in more detail.

When in plan A, you try to meet all the needs you can. If you have read on the MB site a lot, you know that often the WS doesn't want many of the needs met, so you have to keep it low key. Sometimes if you say you need help, and ask for it directly, you can get it, but not always.

"I need to talk to you about some things - I need your advice, will you meet me to discuss them?"

You can ask about things like getting the puppy, and discuss the pro's and cons like you are still married. AND HEY, YOU ARE STILL MARRIED - WHAT ABOUT THAT???

That's one suggestion, ask her to talk to you because you want advice. Now, this has to be consistant with how you did things before she left. If you always made the decisions, and never listened to her point of view, it won't work. I am sure you could find a subject if you think about it - and it needs to be real - not something you make up just to get her to talk.

I think what you have been doing is good, but now would be a good time to step this up a notch. I imagine things are not really swell in Lala land right now.

So, look at the needs you have outlined for her, and think of ways to meet some of them. Admiration, affection, and conversation would be good. You can't just say "I love you so much, you are so beautiful, give me a kiss," because you already know that won't work, and would sound kind of fake given your feelings of the last little while. You have to think about past good times, think of things you really appriciated about her, and find a way to bring it up. If she will meet you to give you advice, you can do it then. If not, a SHORT phone call might work. Call, say something like "I was thinking about you and wanted to hear the sound of your voice, so I called. How was your trip?" She may talk or she may be abrupt and say she doesn't want to talk or that it is a waste of time. If so, you reply to the effect that you don't think it would be a waste, that you would like to put the marriage back together, but that you respect her feelings and thanks for talking. Then you hang up. You can probably get away with that at least once a week - strong but not a pest. Persistant, but not whiney. Use humor, and make her safe, that is, if she blasts you, you tell her that you disagree but that you respect her right to choose and sign off. Tell her you miss the old W, the one that did this, and that with me (good memories can be powerful.) Thank her for talking, and hang up - always hang up before she gets tired of you.


I wonder how she views these cards. I can imagine she almost looks forward to them. She gets a little money, a pleasant, not-too-heavy message, and some meaningful little token. Except they probably make her feel very guilty.

You are probably right, and she may avoid talking just from the guilt, but we just don't know until you try.

Think of this as a game. You get points for running the plan, not for the way she reacts. I want to see you run up the score really high.

I can do that again in a week or two. But if I'm going to try and talk to her, I think I should call her directly. That will take some courage for me at this point, but I can do it. I agree that it might be time for me to reach out to her, but this must be done very carefully. I love the idea of putting together some kind of plan. I'm really running out of time. I have probably no more than a month before official divorce proceedings start.

I think you should do something before the weekend is over. It is good to get her when OM won't be there, however, if you have a request for help that is valid, she may talk while he is there, and that would probably make him upset - which would be good.

Please don't be afraid of this. I can't think of how this could hurt your chances. Remember to give yourself points for doing the work, not for how she reacts.

Make your conversations consistant with the way you used to talk - if you were poor at this the last little while, then think back to when you were dating, and use that for your template.

If she asks you point blank what is going on, tell her. "I want you to know that I have been working on becoming the type of man I should have been before. I want to be married to you, I want to grow old with you. I want you to know that I still want you back, that I still love you. I am sad about the way things have gone, I worry about your heart, and the wear and tear it is taking, I want you to be able to heal, so I called, to talk."

This is just an example, you need to use words that are your words, and that say your feelings. I bet you still have some if you look around down there where your dreams are kept.

People come to MB for a number of reasons, for support (you poor thing, how could WW do this to you.)
For advice (The blue shirt looks best on you this week.)
For information - and there is a wealth of it here.

I like to offer support, but right now, I think you need to DO SOMETHING.

Some possible stuff that may come up.

WW " I think it's too late."
GC "I think we will reach that point, but I don't think we are there yet. I want to try it, I want a chance."

WW "I don't think you can forgive me, I don't think it could work."
GC " Once I didn't think I could ever learn to read, or drive a car, or graduate from school, but I have done all those things. I have faith that this can work, but I need you to try."

Lots more stuff, but I need to go.

I hope you are getting ideas - pick a day to start you plan, as long as it is today, tomorrow, or the next day, so that I can live with it too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ August 27, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Graycloud - I think all you need to do is sit back and watch the show. I really believe that OM is going to go back to his wife. He is going to realize that he does not have much to offer the sparrow.

He'll be thinking that if the sparrow gets tired of no money, and leaves him, then he will really be stuck.

So I would just bide my time, and see what happens.

Believer, the sparrow has money. She is probably already paying for everything. She's supporting him, and I think she likes it. She's steering him in his decisions and paying for their fun, and I think she relishes the power she has, a power that she's had to share with me (and I was not quite generous enough in giving her a fair share).

OM is weak and indecisive. I said to car4love once, "He's a lot like me, but less, and she's a lot like you, but less." She has brought that up a few times since as something that was a good description, and probably deep down how those two see it as well.

So... whatever strength and courage I have right now is, strange as it may seem, not something that appeals to her at the moment. She seems to prefer a weak man.

This is going way out on a limb, but I think she has problems with a fear that men will abandon her. It might have to do with losing her father during a critical time in her childhood, and the fact that around the time she lost him, she was a "troubled teen" and her father was not very happy with the way she seemed to be turning out. Her previous Rs were with weaker guys, and she talked about those Rs ending because the guys were "mush". She's got herself another pile of mush to push around. I think that kind of partner appeals to her because she doesn't fear as much that he will leave her. One of the only things she's told me as a reason she drifted away from me is that I am too independent.

Those other Rs of hers took time to play out. If history is any guide, this one will also take a while - too long for me - to end, unless guilt, mistrust, and outside pressure accelerate the ending of it.

It's raining, though, on the two of them now, and maybe those few seeds I've planted in the desert that is her mind will soon begin to sprout.

And after all she's done, I'm still not going away.

GC

I stirred the pot a little tonight. The thought of contacting the sparrow felt overwhelming to me. Partly as a warmup, but mostly because I need to fill in some of the blanks in the sparrow's life and get a better feel for how she deals with things, I went to where SIL works. She came over and hugged me and we talked for a while. I asked her if I could meet with her and MIL and talk about some things.

I said I didn't want to vent on the sparrow or talk about any "guess what she's up to now" stuff or conspire or anything like that, that I just wanted to talk to them a little about the sparrow's past, to try to find some kind of resolution for myself and get more of an understanding about the pain and insecurity my WW carries inside herself.

SIL is going to ask MIL if she'll agree to talk to me, and plans to call me tomorrow and let me know. I assured her that this was no scheme or conspiracy, just a search for some resolution or understanding.

I was extremely emotional, but I didn't show it much. I feel like talking to her took a little weight off me, like some of the anxiety over thinking of contacting sparrow was relieved.

I don't know if everybody will agree, but I think this was a wise thing for me to do. I hope I get a chance to see MIL, but honestly I don't expect her to agree to it. SIL said she'll meet with me either way. We'll see. I assured her I wasn't going to lay anything nasty or sordid that I know on them, that I just want to talk about the sparrow's past.

In other news...

OM has a good number of brothers and sisters. This week, one of his sisters was dropping her H off at the airport, and he told her he has found someone else and wants a D. This has already happened to one of OM's sisters, though that one tells him it's the best thing that's ever happened to her.

More adultery in OM's family, but this time his sibling is on the business end of it. Wow.

GC

bump

GC - My WH also comes from a huge family (6 sisters and 6 brothers) where Divorce is way too common and I know adultry has played a part in some. D just seems to be a way of life, an easy way out of hard situations in his family.