Last night when I got home, I was expecting a warm welcome, since we'd gotten some good news about our plans for going 2 Italy next month.

Instead, she had a credit card statement with the charges for coaching on it. The card was overdrawn. No big deal, I can pull the amount from savings and pay it back. But that wasn't enough. She criticized me working with Penny and said "I'd much rather you worked with a real professional" (therapist), "This is way 2 expensive, it shouldn't be more than about $60/month" and "if you're going 2 keep this up, please pay for it out of your savings account so I don't even have 2 see it, as I find it offensive." She'd rather I work with a credentialed therapist than a coach (which she described as "paying one of your MB friends for conversation"). I've had 2 IC's before one session with SH about 2 years ago, plus MC with her about the same time. One of the ICs was here at my work. She was very helpful, but specialized in work-related problems like stress and alchoholism, not infidelity. She was also "free" for 5 visits, though she saw me 7 times. The other IC was private, and cost me $80/visit, so he was sometimes over $300/month. Our MC was at Kaiser, and was only $5 a visit at the time (would be $10 now), and worth every penny of it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

Anybody else run in2 this kind of negative reaction? I thought we were doing "okay", or at least "upper so-so". Penny agrees that the A has been long over, though attempts 2 remain "friends" continue, and we were planning accordingly.

I should add that, during our argument over the weekend, I did "attack" her IC for telling her (by her account) that it was "good that she's just friends with OM." It was a DJ, and I feel a little bad for it, because I really know how it feels now 2 be attacked for doing what I feel is responsible and right 2 recover from this mess.

I went 2 bed fuming, woke up in the middle of the night fuming, and woke up at 4:30 this morning with a splitting headache.

-ol' 2long

"if you're going 2 keep this up, please pay for it out of your savings account so I don't even have 2 see it, as I find it offensive."

"My desire to find my way through the aftermath of your 12-year affair offends you? Please explain."

Pep

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Refocus....

When something like this happends ask yourself:

What is the ~topic~ and what is the underlying ~issue~....

See if you can identify these two separately in your above related discussion with your W.

Pep

2long -

I am probably way out of line, but every time you post a mean comment about what your wife has said to you, it makes me crazy mad.

If you went to a "real therapist" isn't your wife afraid that you may be advised to separate? As Penny is trying to help you save your marriage.

You are a great guy 2long, your essence shines through in your writing and your posts. I wish you could find happiness in your marriage or find happiness with someone else. I am sorry to voice my non-MB opinion regarding this, but life is short man.

Pep:

Un42nately, that's the kind of response I OFTEN want 2 give. In fact, I've gave a few like that this weekend. Not that, but stuff like it that she clearly saw as attacks on her.

I'm so tired, and yet I feel responsible and "right" in trying 2 work through this still. Also, Penny advised that I not do anymore exposing over in RMville, because the A is over and we're trying 2 let her addiction die. (she didn't say I couldn't confront him, though I don't have a real plan 2 do so, but believe would be entirely appropriate if he's a "friend").

I had emailed her an article Penny wrote about conflict avoidance, which was excellent, but my W hasn't even acknowledged getting the email. Like many before, educating or just sending her lyrics 2 a song that I thought she'd like, she completely ignored it. In this case, I feel like it's because she saw I'd forwarded it from Penny. Heck, the purpose of sending it was 2 clarify MY OWN "problem" with conflict avoidance, not 2 point a finger at her "shortcomings."

If she won't read innocent stuff like that or let me talk 2 her about it after 2.5 bleedin' years since D-day, what the heck am I doing anyway???

-ol' 2long

Pep:

"What is the ~topic~ and what is the underlying ~issue~...."

Excellently asked. I have always prided myself for being humble... ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... but, seriously, I have always had a tough time believing my own judgment when it comes 2 making assessment regarding things like this where I have 2 get info so indirectly.

But I would guess that the topic is training: My W respects degrees. Therapists have degrees, usually advanced degrees, which requires years in college. Coaches don't have 2 have degrees, and I don't think Penny does. But they do go through extensive, focused training. And MY reasons for going 2 Penny is the FOCUSED training on THIS particular subject, plus her own personal first-hand experience.

I would also guess that the issue is her reactionary na2re due 2 her withdrawl. We don't talk much about it, but I sense that guilt and remorse are finally starting 2 set in. But she can't let go of the need 2 assign responsibility for her A 2 me for not "being there" for her 13 years ago. We talked a lot about that during our discussions last week and the argument over the weekend.

Overall, I think we made progress. But underlying it all, there's been this feeling I get from her that she's only waiting until after our D gets M'd next March 2 just 2uit. ...and I can just about guarantee, based on how I've been feeling myself the past several months, that by that time, I'll be more than ready 2 split.

-ol' 2long

weaver:

"I wish you could find happiness in your marriage or find happiness with someone else. I am sorry to voice my non-MB opinion regarding this, but life is short man."

Especially for ol' 2long!!! Not 2 many good years left in the ol' guy!

I'll tell you something. I've been surprised at how many BSs feel this, but never thought I'd experience it: ...there's this gal at work that I sense is "interested" in me. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm going 2 do NOTHING 2 lead her on if this is the case. She's relatively cute, about my age, but she does walk a bit funny and when she's excited she makes funny expressions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

...sorry, that was pretty non-MB of me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-ol' 2long

But I would guess that the topic is training:

And I would guess the topic is money.


I would also guess that the issue is her reactionary na2re due 2 her withdrawl.

And I would guess the issue is one of control over each other's independent activities.

But... I be on the outside looking in.

Pep

Pep:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the terms you're using, or the categories, but I don't think the topic is money. It might be the issue, if the issue can be a smokescreen.

She complains about money being tight, but it's not really right now. Even if we decide 2 split our assets and DV, we could start over alone with enough from selling the house (assuming we finish it first, which could go as fast as a year or so).

I agree with you about the control issue. Though I think I "know better" than 2 let her control me, I do find that my feelings being hurt repeatedly for so long do control, or adversely affect, my ability 2 perform in my daily life. She believes I'm trying 2 control her directly by forcing her 2 stop contact. I can sure come across that way, 2, but I do so precisely because I'm getting more alarmed by my own desire 2 get past this phase at just about any cost - including DV.

But I don't go there because I know we're not on the same page, and if I'm not done with myself, I'm pretty sure she's not done with her own growth.

-ol' 2long

It's a dirty rotten shame that your wife won't come here and make friends, like you have. Wouldn't that be wonderful to your marriage, and the conversations you could have with your wife about the posters, their comments
and with your mutual MB friends.

She seems to be jealous of Penny and the MB forum, to me. She does care for you or she wouldn't care at all who your friends or coach are.

It would be ideal if all the women on here could get your wife to a weekend retreat and somehow convince her that she is risking loosing you by her inability to commit and demonstrate her love for you, to you.

I know that she must be one heck of a woman underneath it all or you wouldn't still be with her, and I truely hope that she realizes it and comes to you in love, before too much more time is wasted.

Is it her pride that is holding her back from surrendering to your marriage? Her guilt from the A, and not being able to accept or admit that she made a mistake?

--------------------
"I have woven a parachute out of everything broken" William Stafford

Weaver:

Yes.

-ol' 2long

weaver:

Also, Penny remarked 2 me after talking 2 my W on the fone for one session: "She's a pretty neat gal."

It's true. I need 2 not forget that. It is why I keep trying.

-ol' 2long

Yeah, I kind of figured that.

2long, have you ever just told her that, and been very passionate about it. I mean just said, you are so incredibly sexy that I just can't hold back any longer?

I know it sounds so elementary, and with all the resentment and pain, those kinds of spontaineous outbirsts get lost. (spelling way off tonight, I know).

But in thinking about why I am so attracted to my ex fiance, it always comes back to the fact that he is just so passionate in my presence. It is probably the one thing that keeps me hanging on, as opposed to going out with another.

I LOVE the way he makes me feel. He makes me feel like I am the most desirable woman on the planet whenever we are together.

Do you think you could just get out of your intellectual mind for a minute, and forget about her intellectual mind for a minute...and just be totally raw and passionate?

I don't know, a long shot I suppose and probably very hard to do, but to my mind that is the one thing that new lovers have, that people in longterm marriages get away from.

As a woman, I just think that that kind of behaviour might make one get back to the very raw and necessary emotions of love between a man and a woman.

2Long, I have had my WW critisize me for coming to this board so often and seeking advice/venting. Thinks I should not be here.

She hasn't attacked counciling, but wants the counciling for my crazyness. She thinks that me checking her computer and phone bills is insane and that I have a mental disorder.

I might be crazy.... for loving her. But what can a guy do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I would guess that the topic is 2long's guilt and the issue is her guilt.

Said another way, the topic is blame aimed at 2long, but the issue is blame deflected from her.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> I would guess that the topic is 2long's guilt and the issue is her guilt.

Said another way, the topic is blame aimed at 2long, but the issue is blame deflected from her.

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oooooooh!

WAT

Your insightfulness is extraordinary...

yessssssss

I see that

2Long... topic is what the conversation appears to be ~about~

the issue is what the conversation means to those involved

Pep

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
She's relatively cute, about my age, but she does walk a bit funny and when she's excited she makes funny expressions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

...sorry, that was pretty non-MB of me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-ol' 2long </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She needs a pair of purple glitter shoes and some ex-lax. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT, Pep:

I "like" your latest assessments. Or, more properly perhaps, they make sense 2 me. I try not 2 get 2 "fond" of an idea like that, because it's not really POJA'd with my W (though we certainly do talk about it). I should add that we talked a lot about blame-shifting, dwelling on the past, and getting overwhelmed by drama. I told her that even now, after all I've been through and learned from, the drama sneaking up on me and enveloping me before I realize it is the most insideous. Causes the most harm when we do talk. She agreed (about it overcoming her). It was very productive. We even were able to admit when we were seething, weren't afraid 2 ask if the other was seething, and backed off for a while 2 let the other seethe a while.

I think the trouble was that 8-hr drive home Sa2rday, with my son and his friend in the back seat. 2long 2seethe!

-ol' 2long
P.S. this morning, I got a goodbye kiss. No big deal, because I do still get those from time 2 time. Big deal, though, because she puckered up first! That's rare.

LINY:

Well, if there ever was even the slightest chance of anything inappropriate being said or happening with this gal, it's gone now!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

...I'll try not 2 bust up in peals of uncontrollable laughter when she walks by next.

-ol' 2long

ol2...I don't think I've ever posted "directly" to you: you sound like you have your head screwed on and nailed down pretty good. I have read just about every post you've made since my inception, however. (It's hard to miss you from the shine from the sparkles! Sorry--just love your "sense." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) I could not offer any advice to you--not only due to intimidation, but not in any position either.

However..."No big deal..." NO BIG DEAL?!?!? That was huge for you! (The conversation and the "reward"!!!!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Good to hear a positive post from ol2 once in awhile! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And thanks...to the likes of you, FM, pep, etc: you use humour and your personality to convey a very serious message. I guess, I can just understand it better. Anyway, it's better than taking stock in Kimberly-Clarke!!!!! Only get a chaffed nose, anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Those do some good cleansing every once in awhile, too, though.)