Hi All - I posted on another thread earlier, and wanted to know if I was inadvertantly an emotionally abusive spouse? Well it turns out from the many responses that I could actually fit the description? No problem, I understand that I need to address/investigate the issue further. My other question would be;
As a result of this type of behaviour, would this justify WS having an affair?

PS: I will be off the air for a few days but will read your responses when I get back..

<small>[ August 27, 2004, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Why do you ask, RM?
I guess it would explain an A.. not justify.
It might justify a divorce, however.
I lived with an emotionally abusive man for 9 years (physically abusive too at times) and to this day I'm glad I got out of that M.
When your partner is always putting you down the love goes very, very quickly. When you're an impressionable 19-year old like I was you might stick it out for some years because you feel "there is something wrong with you and you're not trying hard enough because your H is always saying nasty things". But there comes a point when I thought "No, I can't be THAT worthless."
I opted for the divorce. If my emotional fabric had been different (too scared to leave, for example) and the "right" person would come along, maybe I would have sought refuge in an A. Stupid idea but you drive a person to feel such a deep need for some attention and positive remarks that they'll be very vulnerable for any nice man that comes along.
Is this an answer to your question?

BrownHair - My reason for asking is that I was not aware of how very "broad" the term emotional abuse is? My wife had an A after nearly 4 years of Marriage. Sadly I think that depending on your point of view I may fall into that emotionally abusive category and as a result I was wondering if that would be classified as justification / an excusable reason for her to have an A. I have my own view, but I needed to hear from others on the other side of the fence and those with an unbiased view.
For the record I never laid a hand on my WS nor threatened to, not my nature or style.
I was also very surprised that my WS's continual avoidance of conflict, blatant lack of action on things she "was going" to do (but never did) and general disregard of my emotional needs was classified as passive aggresive behavior. I guess that I have been reflecting and trying to find some sort of reason for what has happened, even if that reason be me. Thanks for your honest response...
PS: The following is the original posting with a bit more background if you wanted it. My Orgininal posting

<small>[ August 27, 2004, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Dear RM,

there are several differences between you and my Ex-H.

- He would never, ever say he was sorry/wrong.
- He would never ask for help as this would mean he would think there was something he needed to change in himself.
- He was the one not handling drinking too well and becoming an alien when he drank (which happened a lot)
- He wouldn't allow me out of the house on my own to have a drink with the girls or whatever
- I never lied to him (had nothing to lie about as I was too scared to risk doing anything he wouldn't approve of)
- He was the one spending a LOT of money on his hobbies (collections mainly)

I guess the only similarities are my own somewhat passive-agressive reaction to his behaviour with always not being perfect enough, forgetting to do some washing up (which would on occasion make him throw the cups that weren't washed yet on the floor and other nasty outbursts).

I did EVERYTHING around the house. The bank, the garage, fixing the sink, cleaning, making his lunch for work (no-one had a lunch like his!), shopping, taking out the garbage, cooking, washing.. He did nothing. Except complain there wasn't beer. Yes, I would forget such things. Subconsciously telling him I didn't like the way he got when he was drinking, I guess.

So I guess the relationship between you and your W is better than that, isn't it?
Your wish to improve yourself will take you a long way. Maybe you could RunningWithScissors posts on this site - he seems to be a bit like you.

BrownHair - Well I guess I was a little different to you ex. I am getting off track here, but I am the one who does most of the long term planning, cleaning, banking, paying bills, washing etc. I guess my worst traits (not really excusable) are that I cut WS down with sarcastic comments over may years, probably as a result of feeling neglected myself for many years. I tried talking about the issues but it never made a difference.

To be honest I wasn't very happy about WS going out with her friends either as she always had to be the "life" of the party and would tend to drink too much and be one of the last home. In my heart I was always worried that the alchohol would cause her to do something stupid, and when I caught her in the arms of another, you guessed it, she was drunk (no excuse).. I am sure that I have made many mistakes and am happy to own up to them / make amends, but as I said before am searching for meaning / closure on this.. Thanks again..

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
<strong> My other question would be;
As a result of this type of behaviour, would this justify WS having an affair?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is NO justification for an affair. EVER.

MelodyLane - Thanks. I guess that is what I thought as I never looked to another outside of the marriage no matter how unhappy I was. No excuses for my LB's / behaviour either.

RenaissanceMan,

I agree the emotional abuse would explain why your W became vulnerable to have an A…and why it’s so important for both spouses to take corrective steps and safeguard their M against future temptations. As brownhair have said, emotional abuse (among other things) can drive a person to feel such a deep need for some attention and positive remarks that they'll be very vulnerable for any nice man that comes along. However, this can’t ever justify having an A…just as nothing can justify emotional abuse towards a spouse. And in principal, having an A is another form of emotional abuse. One wrong can’t be justified by another wrong.

Thanks for all your input. I guess the moral to the story is;

Make sure that you take care of your M and find ways to make sure your spouse knows that you love them.

Just because you think your spouse knows that you love them does not necessarily make it so.

Ok,we are treading that fine line again.

There is NO:

-justification
-rationalization
-explanation
-reasoning
-provocation
-suggestion etc

AT ALL for ever making the choice to have an affair.Never.I don't care what was done or not done before the A.Until we stop avoiding the issues and putting the blame squarely where it belongs(WS) then we will always have some excuse out there and there should never be one.Acceptance is all that gives it any credence,like how we accept that "Boys will be boys" and how a girl dresses is any measure of her true worth,etc.Garbage like that.

We all have choices to make,RIGHT ones and I think most of us who have at least some intelligence know right from wrong and trying to solve any issue within a marriage by adultery is just plain wrong,hurtful and selfish.This has been a long standing problem with society so there isn't a case for this being so new that no one knows how to deal with it.

We have within our means the right ways in which to address issues within our marriages.Just like a teenager who has problems in school,we discuss the problem,try to work out a solution,seek professional help(counselor) and work together as a "team" to make the relationship what it needs to be.There *may be a time when a marriage has to end,yes.But ONLY when it's been given it deserved share of time and effort and not a moment sooner.Especially for our children.This way of life cannot go on as is.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>There is NO:

-justification
-rationalization
-explanation
-reasoning
-provocation
-suggestion etc

AT ALL for ever making the choice to have an affair. Never. I don't care what was done or not done before the A. Until we stop avoiding the issues and putting the blame squarely where it belongs (WS) then we will always have some excuse out there and there should never be one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Octobergirl, first I want to say, I understand you’re a BS and I understand where you’re coming from, but let me explain something from my point of view:

Explanations give us some understanding of why people make certain choices (right or wrong) in life etc. Explanations is NOT the same as justifications or rationalizations etc. I agree justifications & rationalizations is an excuse for an A and wrong. However, an explanation give us some understanding of why things happened and why the WS made the wrong & selfish choices in the first place. Octobergirl, if the WS never have an opportunity to understand (not justify of rationalize) why the A happened, then how on earth can the WS seek some self-understanding & self-knowledge about their own weaknesses and vulnerabilities and how to take corrective & protective steps? Also, how can the BS and WS then learn about the weaknesses, vulnerabilities and unfulfilled EN's in the M and take corrective and protective steps to affair-proof the M and make the M stronger?

You said you don’t care what was done or not done before the A… So tell me Octobergirl, if a man emotionally & physically abuse his wife, beat her up daily, neglect all her EN’s and the woman became emotionally attracted and involved with a man who really cares for her, do you REALLY think the abusive H is not also at fault here? I know this example is an exclusive case, but do you really think in cases like this the blame belongs squarely and only to the WS???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>We all have choices to make, RIGHT ones and I think most of us who have at least some intelligence know right from wrong and trying to solve any issue within a marriage by adultery is just plain wrong, hurtful and selfish. This has been a long standing problem with society so there isn't a case for this being so new that no one knows how to deal with it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Octobergirl, you’re right, but this statement is generalized and a broad assumption in some ways... Things are not always this black and white… Let’s take myself as an example:

I consider myself as an fairly intelligent person who knows right from wrong. However, I became involved in an EA in spite of this. I was involved in a 3-year platonic e-mail friendship, which developed into an EA very slowly and with pass of time. It’s like one day you think you are just having this innocent and harmless friendship and the next thing realizing that actually you are involved in an EA and not sure where the boundaries was crossed… Why (explanation)?

Well, I was raised with the perception (and by my father’s example) that there is nothing wrong with close opposite sex friendships as long as there is no physical involvement, declarations of love towards each other etc. I was raised in the church and in a religious family, I know the rules about physical adultery which is explicitly prohibited in the Script, but I didn’t know (and there is not clear guidance in the Script) about EA’s and opposite sex friendships. In the Script Jesus teach about ‘adultery of the heart’, but this is where the discussion stops and I always interpreted this verse in the Bible as lustful and adulterous thoughts about an opposite sex person...

I first learn about EA’s and that I was involved in one after I’ve discovered this website on MB and after my own inappropriate involvement corrected all the wrong perceptions I had about opposite sex friendships. I recognize these kinds of friendships all around me now (because of what I’ve learned from my own experience) but it seem people (even good, religious people who know right from wrong) don’t even realize they’re on dangerous grounds with these freindships… Also, society and churches mainly teach about the sinful and adulterous act (sex outside M), but that’s where it stops.

When someone have an PA with someone, that person know without doubt that what he/she’d doing is wrong... I mean, I can't imagine that sex and using your genitals can happen as ‘just an accident’. However, someone can get involved in an EA if boundaries is unwittingly crossed from platonic friendship into something more… So in my opinion an EA can happen unintentionally (I don’t say this is always the case) but a PA is intentionally since clothes can’t get removed by themselves! When a friendship with someone develops to a deeper level and you realize you’re involved in an EA, you still have the choice to stop it before it develop any further, but if you let the EA develops into an PA any way, you know what you're doing is wrong…

Hi suzet,

I appreciate your posts and we do have somewhat of a difference of opinion but that's ok.

To address your response.I understand that explanations give us the meaning behind actions.But,we are in a new era where unless you live under a rock or in some remote country of the world,Adultery/Infidelity is known throughout many cultures as sinful.If you only count Catholics whose commandments include "thou shalt not commit adultery" there you have mass of people who understand this concept.There are just no more excuses to be made IMO that can give people today an out.

There needs to be some serious change in what we view as committed relationships not to mention marriage.Society portrays marriage and infidelity in not so nice terms and in some cases completely false.It comes down to,at least for me,being open and honest with each other at all times,not just when you feel like it and not just when thigs are going well or even bad for that matter.We talk about meeting EN's here but the truth is,if our spouses had been open and honest with us to the extent that we knew we had serious problems and the time was at hand to work on them,we may have been saved a great deal of grief even if we didn't find this site.If we cannot be completely honest about our inner most feelings with the one person we take our vows with and pledge eternal love,honor and care with,then just what are people getting married for? If you say some people get married for the wrong reasons(hog wash)then to me that is still an excuse.Also,if you were to say to me that you tried to get the attention of your husband for years about your unhappienss but he just never cam e around,well adultery is not the answer,you needed to D him.

I don't agree with the fact that some beleive that they do not know when they have fallen into an EA or that it is too late.It is my opinion that they know EXACTLY what they are doing.You do not have intimate discussions with or spend time with the opposite sex and not know what you are doing.If you are an adult in this time(2004) and you are aware of what sex is and love and marriage and dating,all these things,you cannot be so clueless as to not know that if you spend enough time with the oppsoite sex and you,there is a very high probability that you are going to get intimate at some point(EA/PA) or cross boundaries.

Regarding your analogy of the domestic abuse,I am saddened to see that you would actually think that I would condone any form of abuse.That seems to be a common response when I challenge this ideal of responsibility.I have always said,that it is in no way the fault of the spouse that is physically abused no matter what he/she has done or not done.That person/woman has a right to get out of that relationship/marriage if her life is at stake and that of her children.BUT,falling into another relationship with another man because she is hurting is not the answer or salvation either.She should first be concerned with saving her own life and get out of the abusive marriage by DIVORCE first,not enter into an affair,which may even endanger her further if found out.

In any marriage,there is a resonsibility for each spouse to work on their problems,especially if children are involved,BEFORE making any other decisions that could harm or inflict pain and suffering on the other.This is not rocket science.Again,we are in an age where we KNOW that there are proper ways of dealing with marital issues.It has become almost a farce for some people to think that A's are the way to selfish happiness at the expense of all other's.Look at how many more disgusting websites keep coming into society suggesting adultery as an alternative to marital woes.I could go on and on about TV and movies too.

I know this goes against the grain here at MB but IMO,I do not care what a BS did or did not do before the WS has an A.The fact is that many WS's cheat even if their spouse was next to perfect.And of ourse,on the flip side,WS's cheat if their spouses are not nearly perfect or even far from it.In either scenario however,it is 100% the fault of the WS to make the choice to have an A REGARDLESS of prior marital state and therein lies the problem.Until we stop making, what I call excuses, for someone making the decision to cheat,we will never solve this problem.I am all for *preventative measures.This includes educating our children about real relationships and marriage and what it all means,not glorified fairy tale movies or at the opposite end,sleazy made for TV movies,porno flicks and media ads,etc.

When enough people take a stand and say this has to stop,we can start to make changes but right now,we still have a terrible D rate and it's predicted to remain at this rate for the next decade,at least.And I still want to see some kind of punishment come back for Adultery.I mean,if we are sending people to jail for stealing a coat,why is a COAT more important than the destruction of marriages and families????? If anything ,I want people to have a much better deterrent to getting involved with a married person than what we have now.At least,they should be hit hard in the pocket book.Jail time is something I ponder but as it is,I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Well,I have said enough and I'm sure I have much more to say but I need to put this to rest.Thank you for your time.

O

Suzet / Octobergirl, you both make good points and I can see both sides of the argument. As the BS I have to say that I really see Octobergirls point of view better. I think that nowadays it really is too easy to blame the BS as the reason the A started.
IMO if a WS is being abused in any way, then they have several options/rights they should consider;
1. Talk to partner explain feelings / issues
2. Stay and work on M (counselling, etc)
3. Leave the M
4. Probably others as well
Having an A should not come into this list.
I also agree that WS's should have some incentive not to stray whilst married / before possible solutions are sought. If people do get involved in an A then both the respective parties in the A should be be hit in the hip pocket and hit hard.
At present there appears to be no reason for people to consider avoiding A's, and in fact I have know people that targeted married couples as they feel that they are easy targets and usually no strings attached.
Sadly, until the media, hollywood, and all of us stop viewing it as an acceptable part of every day life, the misery from A's will continue to perpetuate. Again, this is my opinion but I do feel that marriage is nowadays treated more like a commodity than one of the most sacred gifts that two people can share.

I agree that nothing justifies an A>

Emotional abuse does justify leaving. It does justify seeking a D. It certainly justifies seeking legal advice to protect one's rights.

It could justify a RO, in certain circumstances.

But, it does not justify the victim in effect becoming a victimizer. I mean, having an A is a form of emotional abuse on the BS. Thus, if this logic were to be followed, the BS is now justified in seeking a revenge A. Two wrongs do not make a right.

The sad thing is, I have seen many cases of really serious emotional abuse, and an interesting paradox strikes me. Those who suffer the worst abuse are often so beaten that they believe the statements of the abuser. They see themselves as stupid and worthless, and thus they not only don't see the support mechanisms that are there, they actually see themselves as deserving of the treatment. They are brainwashed.

On the other hand, I think of many people I know who've left marriages for "emotional abuse", and when they describe their situation, it pales in comparison to those others.

For example, a friend of mine recently announced he was leaving his wife of 10 years. No kids - thank God! He claimed he was being "emotionally abused" by his STBX because she was "holding him back" from achieving his true potential. When pushed, she'd complain about how often he'd go out with his pals. She never degraded him or threatened him; he still went.

Yet, I look at my new neighbors. A young couple, but sometimes I think the young husband really needs a good mash in the grille. He belittles his wife constantly for her actions, yet he is such a hypocrite. He tries to act "old world" and bosses her around. It's embarassing to watch. Yet, she is constantly apologizing to him.

The worst is they have two small boys, who are going to grow up seeing this, thinking this is how you treat others. In fact, I see it when they play with the other kids on the block.

When he verbally and emotionally abuses his wife, he abuses his kids.

So, I say that, yes, in cases of serious emotional (and verbal) abuse, the victim is justified in leaving and seeking help. But, in cases where one is "stretching" to justify an A, it is not. What's more, I think it is an affront to real abuse sufferers to claim it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>She should first be concerned with saving her own life and get out of the abusive marriage by DIVORCE first,not enter into an affair,which may even endanger her further if found out.

In any marriage,there is a resonsibility for each spouse to work on their problems,especially if children are involved,BEFORE making any other decisions that could harm or inflict pain and suffering on the other. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO if a WS is being abused in any way, then they have several options/rights they should consider;
1. Talk to partner explain feelings / issues
2. Stay and work on M (counselling, etc)
3. Leave the M
4. Probably others as well
Having an A should not come into this list.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Emotional abuse does justify leaving. It does justify seeking a D. It certainly justifies seeking legal advice to protect one's rights.

It could justify a RO, in certain circumstances.

But, it does not justify the victim in effect becoming a victimizer. I mean, having an A is a form of emotional abuse on the BS. Thus, if this logic were to be followed, the BS is now justified in seeking a revenge A. Two wrongs do not make a right.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with all these statements and I&#8217;m 100& against adultery/infidelity as well. However, there&#8217;s only one problem with the above statements (and I will use the words of another poster to explain myself):

Most people in an affair never "considered" having one or not. It was not like they woke up one day and wondered, "should I fall in love with Mrs. X?"

They were usually in far to deep before they realized it because they failed to protect themselves against their own weaknesses.

There are many variables in why an affair happens, some of which you may have some control over and others you have nothing to do with.

What is meant (actually, Steve Harley said it) by the previous statement is that in order for an affair to happen, the person getting into it has to not care or not understand what their own weaknesses are and put themselves into a situation which will further erode those weaknesses.

"Falling in love with someone other than your spouse is not caused by unmet needs in your marriage. It is caused by a failure to protect your own weaknesses." Steven W. Harley, M.S.

As a FWW I failed to kept boundaries and protect myself against my own weakness because at the time, I didn't understand and wasn't aware of those weaknesses and vulnerabilites. As a result I became too attached to OM and developed inappropriate feeling for him&#8230; As I've said, this also happened because of wrong perceptions and a lack of knowledge on my part about opposite sex friendships... I didn't notice in time our friendship crossed boundaries from platonic friendship into romantic love... However, although I was already involved in the feelings that constitute an EA, I could still make the decision to distance myself and prevent myself from becoming involved in an intense, full-blown A.

As the other poster have said, most WS's don't PLAN or CONSIDER to go out and have an A with someone. Although people can't always choose their feelings and emotional reactions towards the opposite sex, they can still choose not to ACT on those feelings and that's what most FWS's fail to do. Feelings is not an excuse to proceed with ACTION and to REACT on those feelings...people can still make the decision not to get involved in spite of the feelings, but this might be very difficult to do and involve ENORMOUS self-discipline and self-control. However, it IS possible.

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

OG...I understand your POV. I really do. As a FWS, I cannot *fully* understand your POV. Let me say it a different way: I can sympathize with you, just not empathize; I've never been in a BS's position.

Suzet, that was the best *explanation*, *NOT* *justification* of an EA I have read yet. I can empathize with you. If I may, however, ask a personal question, which I am *still* trying to pinpoint in my sit. What was the point, the realization, the *conscious* awareness in your EA that you woke up and said, "This isn't right! I've crossed the [perverbial] line." I've tried to explain this to my W several times, and do my best at answering any questions she has, but still have difficulty in finding a particular point.


I only got to read this thread now. And I can see the 2X4's coming out now, but...there *is* a difference between an EA vs. a PA. (And I've been told before that this is just my "fog" talking. No, it's my perception, and, unfortunately my perception was from being in the position of being in an EA.) Unfortunately for us WS's (and BS's alike), the results and outcomes are much the same--this is certainly one thing we can all agree on. (I think.) "Pain is pain" as one MB'er eloquently puts it.

Thanks for the insightfulness from both sides.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong>Suzet, that was the best *explanation*, *NOT* *justification* of an EA I have read yet. I can empathize with you. If I may, however, ask a personal question, which I am *still* trying to pinpoint in my sit. What was the point, the realization, the *conscious* awareness in your EA that you woke up and said, "This isn't right! I've crossed the [perverbial] line." I've tried to explain this to my W several times, and do my best at answering any questions she has, but still have difficulty in finding a particular point.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LINY, I understand exactly what you mean… It was also difficult for me to pinpoint the exact and defining moment where boundaries were crossed. The "when does it become an EA" is cloudier than the "EA/PA" distinction… After I became emotionally attached to OM and started to develop inappropriate feelings for him, I know deep down this friendship wasn’t right or appropriate anymore, but I ignored by conscience because there wasn’t any physical involvement, declarations of love or inappropriate and intimate discussions between me & OM about our spouses or marriages. And because of this and the fact that my H knew about the friendship I thought I didn’t do anything wrong and tried to justify my friendship with OM in my own mind.

If I think back now, I will say the defining moment from the friendship into and EA was the point where the relationship becomes something where I wouldn't be comfortable sharing every detail with my H and after I began to kept certain things secret from him: 1) The subtle jokes and flirting on e-mail and 2) the fact that OM requested photos of me and I send some holiday photos to him on e-mail. Another point I can define, was the day I went to OM’s office and for the first time discussed very personal issues about myself and issues from my parents & childhood… Immediately after this, he send me an e-mail and told me he felt concerned about me and so much wanted to hug me, but was afraid to do that. I would say THIS day (and especially after I’ve read his e-mail), was the point where I consciously KNOW and realize things went too far...

Last year I’ve sent this thread on differences between friendships and EA’s... I tried to find some answers on my questions about this topic. Please read it. I’m sure it will give you some insight and answers as well!

Blessings, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

I would wager that if I went out on the street today and asked 1000 people if they knew what Infidelity was(cheating,adultery,etc)most,if not all, could give me an adequate definition.So when we discuss the idea that maybe some people just don't know when they are crossing the line or boundaries well,I just don't buy into that.Sorry.

The fact is that even though some may say that they don't choose to go out and have an affair they DO choose to feed the other inappropriate "relationship".An affair is an ugly monster that has to be born and fed and how you do that is by spending time with the other person,talking,revealing intimate details about one another,flirting,smiling,sharing common interests,etc.If the A was not fed it would not happen.

My WH made the CHOICE beforehand,along with the homewrecker,to GO AHEAD and do it anyway even though they discussed that my WH was married.Let me repeat that: they actively decided to go ahead anyway and make the decision to undergo and adulterous relationship with FULL KNOWLEDGE of all the pain that would ensue.Complete selfishness beyond belief.Even before that,they were in the process of spending time together after work,sharing details,talking and flirting,spending the time and energy to feed the monster.

I know how this works because I have been tempted too.And I have also had those tingly feelings when you realize that the person who is across from you may be a potential mate.As soon as that happens you can either be off and running if you make the CHOICE to keep engaging or you can cut it off.It's all about choices as we talk about here.

The sad fact is that we live in a society that does not value marriage and family as much as we spout that we do.As you mentioned,self discipline seems to have gone by the wayside in place of entitlement.Make yourself "happy" at the expense of all other's even if it is degradation or debauchery as evidenced by all the recent reports of sexual abuse of children <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> by those entrusted to care for them,increased porn industry in the BILLIONS of dollars,increased websites devoted to porn(which my WH has viewed) and philandering,child slavery and prostitution,the list goes on.

I'm just sick of it all and for someone like me that holds people accountable and has high standards it's a tough show to watch.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
Suzet,
I would wager that if I went out on the street today and asked 1000 people if they knew what Infidelity was(cheating,adultery,etc)most,if not all, could give me an adequate definition.So when we discuss the idea that maybe some people just don't know when they are crossing the line or boundaries well,I just don't buy into that.Sorry.
I know how this works because I have been tempted too.And I have also had those tingly feelings when you realize that the person who is across from you may be a potential mate.As soon as that happens you can either be off and running if you make the CHOICE to keep engaging or you can cut it off.It's all about choices as we talk about here.

As you mentioned,self discipline seems to have gone by the wayside in place of entitlement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OG...you sorta contradict yourself here. "I would wager that if I went out on the street today and asked 1000 people if they knew what Infidelity was(cheating,adultery,etc)most,if not all, could give me an adequate definition." But then you talk (and I have to unfortunately agree) about the porn industry, self-discipline, etc. How can one "on the streets" have a definition of infidelity if they accept what you mentioned as the norm?

I respectfully have to disagree with you disagreeing. I would tend to think, that if you asked those same 1000 people, only a handful could give you a definition of "emotional affair." (Even though I was in one, I had no clue of what that meant until I came to MB--and certainly didn't think of the repercussions.) However, the physical act of having sex with another is black and white; the act of cranial intercourse is not so obvious.

I'm sorry for your pain. And certainly sorry for the pain I caused.

When you say "FULL KNOWLEDGE of all the pain that would ensue", that's probably not quite true.
They simply did not think about it at all. They were MUCH more concerned with what they would get out of it, not how it would affect others.

That ios pretty much the definition of, "Complete selfishness beyond belief."
Not caring/thinking about the effects of your actions on others.