Hey Believer and JL...thanks, I'll show these to Mrs. WB. Yes, JL...you hit my feelings dead on. I had told her if you really want to make a love deposit be home earlier than I expected. Yes, we do have fun together...and I asked if I could join her. She said that nobody else was bringing a date and did'nt want me to feel like the 3rd wheel....or outsider. I had no idea...that she would stay there with these male co-workers which I have never met. Well the weekend seems odd again, with Mrs. WB wanting me not to talk about that Friday night and that she "had made a mistake", I been finding it hard to relax. She was just now laying on the bed and wanted me to "snuggle" which is something we are truly great at...but I found myself too 'antsy' to enjoy it. Well...she says everything will be OK if I let it. Like you guys said my heart isn't of stone. It feels great...but seems to break easier each time. I can't hope enough that the Lord touches her heart and lets it become one with mine. Yes...I took years to figure out how to love her...but all I want now is a equal try from us both.

To those of you who replied...thank you. Just Learning...My true thoughts and feelings...there is a good one.

What if I do not know exactly how I FEEL about things sometimes? What really gripes me about the whole thing is that now I am the BAD GUY in this marriage...just because I had an affair am I to pay FOREVER for it? Does everyone out there think that an A is the WORST thing that can happen in a marriage?? I for one do not think it is...sure it is betrayal and it hurts like a BEEP...but some of the things that happened in this marriage prior to my A were not a picnic let me tell you. Just because now Welderboy has had this revelation and has learned how to love...I am supposed to let it all go be 'full steam ahead' with repairing a marriage that for all intent and purposes I felt was over or I never would have had the A in the first place. Does the fact that I had an A cancel out all the hurt that Welderboy heaped on me when I was the one loving, trying, hurting and wondering if it was all worth it or not. For three years I put up with things that hurt MORE than having an A...yes I agreed to start again...yes I said I forgive him for those things but maybe deep inside I don't...I really get confused about this sometimes. Back when I was waiting some nites for WBoy to come home wondering what he was doing...all the HORRIBLE things he said to me and I just hung in there...I begged him to go with me to find help for our marriage and he refused. All the times he was an [censored] to my family and treated me badly even in front of them and tried to ruin special family gatherings...I could go on here but suffice it to say he did just about everything but have an A. So when he is here telling me that he needs to build back trust and he needs to get past this and that Blah, blah. I am thinking wait a minute here...so do I...I still hurt from past things and I do not trust him with my feelings. If I told you how many times he seemed to have 'changed' in the past only to crap all over me again this post would go on forever. So I had an A big deal...now he hurts...well I say WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!

Now when I had the A I was not looking to get even or doing it out of spite...I am not like that...I was just looking for love...cause I was not getting it at home I was at the end of my marriage rope. I thought it was over...I wanted it to be over. Then I left and I wanted a divorce...truly wanted it to be DONE.

HOW DO PEOPLE RECOVER FROM THIS?? How does a marriage rebuild when people have hurt this much? I feel that my love died...I feel WBoy put a pillow on it and did not remove it until it stopped kicking and putting up a fight to live!! IT DIED! The love and marriage we once had is gone. Sometimes I feel that we should just divorce...I AM SO CONFUSED! Sometimes I just feel it would be easier to start a new relationship...I would trust until given a reason not too.

So every time he talks about being the injured party...I just get sick of hearing it. It is just like finger nails on a chalk board!!

So here are some of my true feelings that up till now I had not wanted to face...now I am EXHAUSTED and am signing off.

Any advice now?

Debby

Debby,

NOW I do have ALOT of advice. So much that I don't have time to give it all to you right now. But, I will start. My first piece of advice is for YOU to decide if you want to be married to WB. If you do not, then it is time you divorced him. He had to make the same decision during your A, and he decided he wanted to try.

So my first piece of advice is decide if you want to be married.

Now if you do decide to be married, I strongly recommend counseling. We are NOT pro's here. If you are not sure I would strongly recommend you get and read two books His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair both by Harley.

THEN, I think the two of you really need to talk to one another.

You said many things and it is clear you are still very angry at him, but you anger (which is really a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as pain, fear, etc) is NOT going to justify you acting like you say he acted.

You stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So when he is here telling me that he needs to build back trust and he needs to get past this and that Blah, blah. I am thinking wait a minute here...so do I...I still hurt from past things and I do not trust him with my feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let's see are you telling me that you doing what you did has helped you build up trust in WB? Do you think it helped him build up trust? Exactly what is the positive outcome you got from doing something you promised you would not do?? What was the pay off? Revenge? You enjoy inflicting pain? What did you get out of this that made it worthwhile? This is important for you to figure out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I told you how many times he seemed to have 'changed' in the past only to crap all over me again this post would go on forever. So I had an A big deal...now he hurts...well I say WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah revenge. It is so sweet isn't it. Are you feeling better now, for having the A. Are you feeling better for compromising what I assume you morals said not to do? Are you feeling proud of yourself? Exactly, what did the A do to solve the problems in the marriage?

There is a saying that you need to consider </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what are you telling us here. That the A was "no big deal". Does that mean you don't expect WB or any man you marry to bother to be faithful to you and you have no plans to be faithful to them.

Debby, listen to me for a second. I mean really listen. Your A hurt you alot. It did NOT accomplish what you wanted. If you had decided to just leave WB, it would have awakened him, but you did far more. You say, you don't trust him. Fair enought,but you then also know how much it bothers you not to be able to trust. So while you may feel justified in ALL you did, there really doesn't seem to be much accomplished for you or him. And now he doesn't trust YOU either. Is that what you hoped to accomplish??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now when I had the A I was not looking to get even or doing it out of spite...I am not like that...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is NOT what you just said up above Debby. You said it was no big deal, and basically he deserved what you did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was just looking for love...cause I was not getting it at home I was at the end of my marriage rope. I thought it was over...I wanted it to be over. Then I left and I wanted a divorce...truly wanted it to be DONE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then why didn't you divorce him, and THEN go looking for love? You did not divorce for the same reason you are here, and the same reason you are still in the marriage, right? There is something still there. The problem you seem to have grasping is that the major hope you have of getting the love you want is if WB can heal and LEARN to love you as you want. But, he must gain trust in you AND himself. Yup, HIMSELF. You don't know the damage you did, any more than he knew the damage he did.

Time for you two to talk and decide whether or not to try to be married. If you decide to, then it is time to look at the past and LEARN from it, don't relive it. Learn from it, take those lessons and make the marriage you both want.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HOW DO PEOPLE RECOVER FROM THIS?? How does a marriage rebuild when people have hurt this much? I feel that my love died...I feel WBoy put a pillow on it and did not remove it until it stopped kicking and putting up a fight to live!! IT DIED! The love and marriage we once had is gone. Sometimes I feel that we should just divorce...I AM SO CONFUSED! Sometimes I just feel it would be easier to start a new relationship...I would trust until given a reason not too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Debby, they recover the marriage by learning from the mistakes. They learn from the affairs, the poor behavior, and they finally admit that they want and need to be loved by their spouse. Then they set about acting in a loving manner. It is what you vowed. You did NOT vow to feel in love with your H. You vowed to LOVE him, as in the verb to love. You learn that what each of you offers to the other is precious, valuable, and something to be protected.

You decide to live by the rules Harley has spelled out,please read them. He did NOT invent them, he simply listed what he felt were the most important things for a successful marriage. And CARE is on of them, so is PROTECTION. You two need to protect one another.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So every time he talks about being the injured party...I just get sick of hearing it. It is just like finger nails on a chalk board!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is hard to hear you failed so badly isn't it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You did you know. Do you think he enjoys hearing about how he failed you? How you use his poor behavior to justify what you decided to do? I don't think so. The point of this is to QUIT hurting each other and that does NOT mean sweep it under the rug. It means talking to each other, learning from each other, stopping the love busters, and starting to see things from one anothers perspective. It takes time but it can be done.

Debby, here is the sad part, the odds are high that if you divorce WB, and marry again the second marriage will fail. It will fail because unless you learn from your mistakes, you will bring all of the baggage of this marriage AND you mistakes into the next one. That is why such a small percentage of second marriages make it. You may not believe this but the status of your marriage BEFORE the A had something to do with your behavior AND WB's behavior.

The idea is to identify what was wrong with each of your behaviors and CHANGE them. This is not a balance sheet or an "I told you so" sort of thing. It is not about who was "worse". It is about EACH of you deciding to be married and happily married, and doing what you need to, to be the best H and W you can be. It is simply a decision on both of your parts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So here are some of my true feelings that up till now I had not wanted to face...now I am EXHAUSTED and am signing off.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad to hear them. You may be surprised I am glad they are so NORMAL. If you read other posts by WS's or even BS's your feelings only two months after getting together are very normal. Seriously they are, and you can recover.

I don't have time to book mark the posts but I strongly recommend you read SKM's Chronicles. If you use the search word Chronicles and search the recovery section you will find her Chronicles and how she felt during recovery. It goes out 11 months and you will be amazed. She and her H are now very happy and have a child.

I would also encourage you to read KiwiJ's first posts here. Then read what she writes today.

Debby, this is a process to rebuild a marriage. Note the word rebuild. The idea is NOT to get the old marriage back, the idea is to build a much better marriage that YOU and WB enjoy. It takes time and patience on BOTH of your parts.

Please consider this.

God Bless,

JL

Well folks...like Debby said, I did really have allot of promblems. Pretty much lost all contact from my son which was from my 1st. marriage that was bad for years...but I was so set on not being the 1st in my family to divorce. My own Dad and Mom stopped talking to me and had my ex and her new husband at their home on holidays...this with the guilt of not having a relationship with my son really worked on me and I took most of it out on Debby at these family functions that her folks had. Yes, I want nothing more than my life to continue with Debby...she gave me hope, brought me closer to the Lord than I'd ever been,and truely made a wonderful difference in me...I guess throughout my own personal lowpoints I kept taking toll on her. I worked a ton...trying to make up for my high dollar support I was paying and to start over...missed allot of time I should of been there for us both. Yes, I'm very much to blame for the failing of our marriage. It was the seperation from Deb that led me back into church and gave me the strenght to love her when she finnally told me of the A. I know now that I love her more than I thought possible and yes want a chance at a "new" marriage. Thanks for the help.

WB,

I hope you read what I said. This is about BOTH of you really changing your perspectives. Your seem to be changing a bit more than hers but you had the wake up call of the A. So this will take patience on your part and WB it takes kindness as well. You don't have to become a doormat, but you need to sit down with Debby and explain to her about respect and what you need. This episode was about her NOT respecting you wasn't it??

By the same token you need to hear from her what she needs to feel respected and independent behavior is NOT it. However, she needs to understand that you want to respect her, you want to love her, and you don't want to punish her.

Now all of this is NOT going to happen over night. You both have been hurt, but first and foremost you both need to recognize the pain the other one is in and do your best to help your spouses heal.

WB, since in ways you are ahead of Debby on this, it will fall to you to do the most work right now. I think as she comes out of withdrawal, and she begins to decide on being married to you, she will be able to help you as well.

I don't know the current status of your relationship with her parents, but you might consider a letter of apology to them for some of the things you have done in the past. You surely owe Debby such an apology. Just a thought, and if it is something that you think might make sense, talk to Debby about it.

Debby and WB have you ever noticed how often the word HUMBLE is found in the Bible?? There is a reason. It is the sign of a man/woman of strong faith who understands their limitations and that they need help. I would strongly recommend that you not only turn to your religion as Humble man and W, but you turn to each other and HUMBLE yourselves to your spouse.

It is time you stop protecting yourselves and protect each other.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Debby -

You are perfectly normal in your feelings. There is a book called "Torn Asunder" by Tom Calder, where he talks about "The Message of the Affair".

Both you and your husband need to figure out the message. Otherwise nothing is fixed. But please have hope that you CAN go on and have a wonderful marriage.

Stick with us, and we will help you through this. And maybe Welderboy will now consider counseling.

The night I had returned home from a weekend trip and Debby had moved out...the following evening I was in counseling through a program at work, Deb then also saw this same woman...we only did one session jointly...and after getting together have been doing it on our own. We have both Harley's books, "Needs" and "Surviving an Affair". I've read both. I agree about being humble with each other and the Lord. Thanks.

Welderboy - You're counseling yourselves - or seeing a marriage counselor?

I'm so glad your wife posted. JL is an expert and gives great suggestions.

You are very fortunate that Debby gave you some things she would like you to change. So at least you know where to start.

Like most couples you have a lot of things going on that are hard on your marriage. But hopefully you can sort them out together, and have a much better marriage.

debbie---i can gurantee you i could be you. anything you say your husband "did" to you i bet i can match. i walked in those lonely shoes for 10 yrs. 10YEARS!!!! wanna hear the kicker---i then got the lucky job of also becomming a BS! i could have easily thrown all my beliefs out the window and become a ws like you and given every excuse you've given and then some...did i mention ten years. i then got three more years of the worse pain you can imagine heaped on top of it---dealing with a ws like you. he remained "here" with us like that should be enough. i should be happy he is here. guess what....after three years of it i asked him to leave. he was given the gift after all the crappy things he did, including an affair, of still having a family that wanted him. please do not do what he did. i let go of the old hurts and years of neglect in order to heal me. you need to do the same. it really is for you. you can do this....get some help from counseling with the harley's....it is the best money you will ever spend. i believe you still have hope or you would not be there---you wouldhave left and just filed....give it a chance. you can do this.

Believer...I started counceling in the middle of Feb., on my own to not only try to save my marriage but to get me through the possibility that Deb was gone. I was truly a mess. This brought out alot of issues that I was juggling the whole time I was trying to be something of a husband...but was failing. After a 6 week period...I was asked if Deb would like to try this jointly...but at first she was'nt strong enough to go with me...the following week or 2 later...she did go with me but just the once. She and I cont. to see the same lady on seperate meetings...until it seemed Deb was pretty much done...after a couple times of telling me she wanted to come back and try. In the end of June at a friends church I had been attending I spoke with a Christian councelor who actually set me straight on why she had left...my tongue was brutal, and I was very disrespectful to my "little girl". I then learned of "letting go and letting God" carry my burden...I knew I was most likelygoing to get on with things solo. I just figured I had tried all I could and could only try to let go... I never could stop contact with my W...we talked everyday...a few times she and I agreed to NC...and sometimes she would break 1st....this let me keep the love alive with faith. I finally read James Dobson's "Tough Love" and told Deb that I had to move on and set her free...telling her I wanted to divorce...she asked me not to file!! I then tried as I may to not contact her....but about a week later did and she confessed or had our D day...I sort of felt this might of been happening from the start...but knew I helped push her there and still want to forgive her and right my wrongs...yes folks, I do share my blame in this...I didn't feel my ladies needs!! I just now want to forget about the past and head forward...I'm so sorry to have a special love...but not cherish it. I now know how to love.
Tahnks guys...please give us your prayers...I would like to head back to church and renew our vows...the best our marriage was when we praised the Lord together. Debby has been more to me than anyone in my life...her job is tough and her life has been also, I want to share my life with her.

Hey, I guess instead of always complaining....I just wanted to say what a really nice evening Deb and I just had. Shopped a little after she came home from work, picked up a sandwich together and did a bit of grocery shopping...and it all made me feel loved. I read some of the SKM chronicles and that too seemed to give our situation more hope. Later...any more thoughts?

Hey...just a little update...Debby has'nt checked this stuff out for a couple days. Everything has been going fine, tonight we did a Harley ride for dinner and a little evening together...we both seem to be going on great...headed to visit her parents this weekend.