BP your post above has given me hope on a other wise very rough morning. My WW has been all the things that you described.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob Pure said: WW was haughty, distant , confidant, unapologetic at this time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This really hurt my confidence that she was experiencing pain and that we will someday be able to reconcile. I know the person that lives inside her and that person is surely in great distress. Eventhough, I realize that she is in the Fog it doesn't make it hurt any less. Sorry that I don't have any wise words but just wanted to thank you BP for how much you helped me this morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C.

My H and I read this post last night and discussed it. I think he was surprised when I agreed that the FWS has a more difficult time than the BS based on a number of things:

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Difficult, not painful...pain cannot be compared in this way. It is all relative. I view "difficult" as getting through this mess and what it requires of the BS & FWS.</font></li>

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notice I use Former in WS. WS' that are still in the A have not even begun their difficulties if they come around and begin to repair the damage! It's when the fog clears and the FWS finally realizes what they have done that the difficulties begin.</font></li>

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a BS, I would NEVER trade places with the WS! I do not have to deal with the fact that the difficulties I am experiencing is due to MY actions. The FWS does. Not only does my H deal with the pain he wrought on me and our M, but he deals with his own loss of self-respect, morals, integrity etc.</font></li>

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I think the most successful recoveries are when the BS and FWS really attempt to have empathy for what the other is going through. Sometimes my compassion for what my H is dealing with surprises me! My heart breaks for him most times knowing the difficulties he is trying to deal with within himself. (I'm no saint tho! I still have days when I want to whack him upside the head for this mess!! LOL)

SHmaley, I have taken solace from the most unliekly of sources. I am glad you took comfort from my post. {{{{shamely}}}}

Re Ws vs BS, let me say something controversial.

A XWS comes back to find an improved, more EN-aware, pure loving BS than was there, before the A.

The BS reconciles to a WS polluted by sex with another undeserving person.

Sorry, I guess I'll be 2x4'ed for this. My WW havs never been with anyone but me till the OM. Its a very big deal for me and for her for her to give herself sewxually to another man within our marriage. And I am not at all sure I can ever recover from it. Physically, spiritually and emotionally its a HUGE betrayal she has done.

It kills me and I may never be able to forgive it enough to reconcile. Sorry but thats how I feel. it IS a big deal. Knowing the foul undeserving man lives who took my wifes marital purity will be a knot in my guts until I die. I do not know how I can ever make love with her again.

The tears flow just thinking about this. 2x4 away, that how I feel.

IslandGuy,

Just read your story and was imediately caught by your D_day 4-17-04,about the same as mine. My story can be found under "Just Found Out" Devastated in California

To summarize I did a short but what I believed intense Plan A and then went right to Plan B. Plan B is a tough but I thank the almight Lord that I went into it quickly. I have had some gut wrenching experiences while trying to be in Plan B and can not imagine what others go through if they are in Plan A.

As to the question of do WS hurt, I can't say in general. In my case I have lost almost 40lbs and can't sleep. I also can not take AD's due to my job. The three times that I saw my WW she appeared to be doing great. No signs of worry, fatique or weight loss. She is in contact with the OM at least 8 times daily and is bringing him in to meet the family in about 5 weeks. Her family has apparently accepted the OM and he will be here the day after our divorce could be finalized. So would I say the WS is suffering? NO, in my opinion she is having a ball. Living in the house I made and furnished for her, driving her BMW, in a job that I totally paid for in terms of education, and looking forward to a 50% split on the monies of a 7 year marriage that was 90% financed by my labor.

Will she pay the price down the road? Only God and time will tell. But for right now she is having the time of her life.

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

MHT… I haven’t had any nightmares about this – fortunately, but my mornings when I wake up make up for it (in a macabre sort of way). When I do wake up in the early hours, I lie in a knot (which to me is worse than a nightmare), and I just lay there in torment for 2-3 hours before it’s time to get the day started. It’s a terrible way to begin the day, and I can’t seem to break this debilitating routine.

Like Bob has mentioned in a posting here, my spirit has been totally annihilated by my wife’s giving of herself to another man, and it’s really tearing me apart – six months later I don’t feel the pain of it has subsided, and I am very fearful of this in the long-term.

I can’t stop grieving over this – I think I’ve got to jump on a plane and disappear somewhere in some remote part of the planet for a while or something. Maybe buy a sailboat and go away for a few years; I don’t know, but my life has been torn to shreds by this, and there’s not even the glimmer yet that the fog is going to lift.

As BP said himself. even with my deep love for her (after all these hurtful acts), I have been so smashed by this that I worry about the magnitude of the recovery (if it is ever to begin unfolding). Thanks for your post on this subject.

BP… You have helped me a lot over the last several weeks, although I haven’t said it up ‘til now. Reading your post about the grief you felt from this has certainly struck a chord with me too.

I don’t know what I would have done without this resource at MB. I would have been living in this agony very much by myself… somehow reading that other people have suffered through this, and learning about how they cope – it’s all helped me to survive this horrible experience.

I feel I can hardly put into adequate words the sorrow and anguish that this has brought upon my life. “I went from having a 40 year future to having no future at all… from having hope, love, security to being hopeless, loveless, and insecure in ten minutes.” I can relate to this Bob.

And her calculating deception, coldness and aloofness throughout it all has only made the wound even deeper. I am beginning (5-6 mo. Later) to gather some composure over this nightmare, but I am so fearful about trusting at this time I wonder how it has changed me… it’s shaken my worldview so to speak, and I go ahead with trepidation about just WHO can I trust? I hate what this has done to ME as a person.

K… thanks for you suggestions on the Ambien. Your input here has been of great value to me, and I commend you for all the help you have so kindly given to others.

WAT… I feel that I am agreement with you that there is very little suffering by the WS when their heads are awash with the ‘chemistry’ that bring about these behavioral changes.

As you said yourself, I think BP has it right about the situation for the WS when they start to come off this high. I suppose that if the ‘high’ lasts long enough though, then time causes the attachments with the BS to fade even further, so when they come away from this high, they are by default less attached to the BS… when they are cognizant enough to look at their own actions, the emotional attachments to the BS have diminished perhaps to a degree that the anguish they experience through this introspection is also reduced… does this make sense? Thanks for your post, WAT.

D_rose… thanks for your insight on this topic. It’s interesting to hear a dual-sided perspective on this. It’s obvious that there’s a lot of suffering for the BS and the WS in most cases. I started this topic because I have read very little about the way that WS’s experience this in the medium to long-term.

Short term it doesn’t appear they are actually ‘aware’ of what their doing. The pathway into an affair seems very insidious, and people appear to get derailed easily unless there are very strong personal boundaries. My wife is Catholic, and I suspect she’s going through a huge internal battle over this – sometimes there’s evidence of this; most of the time she seems oblivious to the damage that this has caused both to the marriage, and to the compromising of her principles.

A big part of my sadness is over my concern for what this will do to her inside, and the long-term effect it will have on her life. Even if it’s without me, and with all the pain she’s brought to me through these actions, I want her happiness – it tears me up to think about what this will do to her head throughout the course of her life. I pray for her every day.

Cymanca.. thanks for your response. I'll read you "Just Found Out" story, and I can certainly relate to the similarities in our experience here. It's pretty hard picking up the pieces. I'm 47, and my WW is 34 - sometimes I wonder if the age difference is a factor - it shouldn't be, but it's hard to ignore the possibility.

Thank-you all for your postings. I am very interested to read further input on this, but I won’t be able to respond for a few days now.

God bless BS’s and WS’s alike; somehow we all have to get through this horror – I wish this hadn’t happened to my life. It’s all too much for me.

QUOTE:

They get sex and feel in love, as you said, but they’re must be a terrible hollowness to it; I can’t imagine it would be otherwise,

One of the most common signs of a wayward wife is that she glows. She feels better about herself, buys new clothes, spends more time on herself.

In the midst of an affair the addiction itself is the feeling good part of it. I have never heard of a WS continuing an affair because it inflicted so much pain.

I think it would be better stated that the WS may feel more pain than the BS once the affair is exposed and they truly realize the damage they have inflicted on the marriage. Maybe that is what was being stated.

Look at some of these Loyal spouses who have stuck it out with the WS even when they refuse to end the affair. I do not think they continue to have the affair because it gives them great pain. For all of the good feelings an affair gives the WS it is 10 times that in hurt for the BS.
JMO

eric.n - One thing I really noticed in your post was the comment about the WS "glowing." I remember a few weeks ago looking at her face and her skin was beautiful - it was radiant, and then it churned me up inside to think about it more deeply. Her skin was always beautiful, and I told her so, but there was a subtle difference that I noticed. It churned me up thinking about this "symptom," but you can't ignore the connection that when someone is spending a lot of their time "that way," it's going to bring about a change in their outward appearance (their skin, color, and complexion). Is it true?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the most common signs of a wayward wife is that she glows. She feels better about herself, buys new clothes, spends more time on herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine was like this the last time I saw her. The first couple of times we met after she left, she looked awful. The last time, she looked smashing.

I'm in Cy's position. From what I know, the sparrow is having a blast. Lots of travel, a nice overseas vacation (without OM thank goodness), and weekends visiting OM's family, who seem to have accepted her as one of their own (while car4love grieves and gets ready to have OM's child).

It seems impossible. And I can't get this damned pain to lessen. I'll be sitting at my desk working, and suddenly my guts will just twist into a knot.

For now at least, I win the pain contest. Wheeee! I'm the big winner.

GC

Islandguy,
I think in the beginning they are quite aware but that little voice is overwhelmed by the rationalizations and justifications we/they tell them/ourselves.

A big part of my sadness is over my concern for what this will do to her inside, and the long-term effect it will have on her life. Even if it’s without me, and with all the pain she’s brought to me through these actions, I want her happiness – it tears me up to think about what this will do to her head throughout the course of her life. I pray for her every day.

I can tell you that this whole affiar fiasco has stregthened not only our marriage but our faith also. IMO if you two reconcile you will be a light to others who are in the same spot as you were. Couples like you can mentor other's and be sunch an influece to others because you habe "been there."

Brah, keep praying for her. Pray for her peace and pray that you can become the kinf of husband God intended you to be.

God Bless,

Doug

Islandguy,
I think in the beginning they are quite aware but that little voice is overwhelmed by the rationalizations and justifications we/they tell them/ourselves.

A big part of my sadness is over my concern for what this will do to her inside, and the long-term effect it will have on her life. Even if it’s without me, and with all the pain she’s brought to me through these actions, I want her happiness – it tears me up to think about what this will do to her head throughout the course of her life. I pray for her every day.

I can tell you that this whole affiar fiasco has stregthened not only our marriage but our faith also. IMO if you two reconcile you will be a light to others who are in the same spot as you were. Couples like you can mentor other's and be sunch an influece to others because you habe "been there."

Brah, keep praying for her. Pray for her peace and pray that you can become the kinf of husband God intended you to be.

God Bless,

Doug

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
[QB] A XWS comes back to find an improved, more EN-aware, pure loving BS than was there, before the A.

The BS reconciles to a WS polluted by sex with another undeserving person./QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, I couldn't let this one pass by. First, not ALL BSs become NEW and IMPROVED. There are those who must absolutely bear responsibility for a lack of recovery despite believing/claiming that they have "improved" themselves. Why? Lack of true forgiveness.

It is one thing to feel betrayed and HELPLESS (BS) but it is an entirely other matter to have REGRET (WS). I don't believe that regret ever really quite goes away even if the BS does forgive the transgression. The BS FINDS themselves in a situation while the WS CREATED the situation.

If the BS does not truly forgive, and therefore continues to harbor such secret thoughts as "she is polluted" or "I'm the booby prize" ect. the "recovery" cannot be a true one.There are a few who blame lack of or maybe even false recovery on the WS's behaviour when it is really their own lack of forgiveness that has stymied the recovery.

Remember when Peter denied Christ? He blithley went ahead and did it not once but THREE times! His horror and sorrow when he finally realized what he had done was immense. REGRET, Bob. Your wife will come to this soon, I believe. You need to focus on the issue of forgiveness in your own heart of hearts or run the risk of a false recovery or worse no recovery at all.

Your pain is a constant nagging right now but hers is just starting to set in. The day it all comes together is going to be the worst day of her life b/c she does at the moment comprehend completely how she has denied YOU. By not forgiving, you will be denying HER and by proxy the chance to recover your marriage. What I am saying applies to all BS.

Forever Hers had some important things to say to you this morning. I hope that you will take these words to heart.

QUOTED From Forever Hers:
------------------------------------------------
If you want a truly loving marriage, then you, through yourself being as humbly obedient to God's commands for husbands as you can be, can model for her through your resulting actions a humility, lack of pride, sorrow for your own "wrongs", a "changed life" based on God's love and obedience to His commands, of "restoring your soul" through God's forgiveness.

She HAS behaved in an untrustworthy manner and only by behaving in a trustworthy manner can trust be reestablished. But her statement about being "beholden to anyone" is either "just fear talking" or a symptom of a real underlying problem.

We are ALL beholden to others for a variety of things. But what you need to get across to her is that while are all most definitely "beholden" to a loving God who has forgiven us our sins, He DOES NOT "lord it over us." We are forgiven and HIS promise, as should be ours when we forgive someone, is to NEVER use the past, forgiven sin, against us in the future. We are God's children and Christ's bride, holy and pure in the sight of God. As a "bride" we walk as "co-equals", as completers of our spouse, as companions, as lovers, as friends...

The idea she is stating of being "beholden" is perhaps something that we hear from many Wayward Spouses whose spouses have a hard time with truly forgiving them. That response is along the lines of "nothing I do will EVER be 'good enough'." She will know that she is forgiven and not "beholden" when you reach the point that you can lower your guard and open yourself to the possibility of being hurt by her again. That is why you need to think about her walk with Christ even more than her "walk with you as your wife."

If she, and you ,are walking more with Christ, you will each be growing in your "Christ-likeness." With Him as the center, the peak, of your marriage, you cannot escape growing closer to each other as you grow closer to Him. It is HIS promise to each of you.

If you both, having accepted Christ in the past, were to continue to "do it my way", God will let you. But you may want to think about the consequences of putting either one of you as the "center" of your marriage and "kicking Christ" out of your marriage or relegating Him to some dark corner to be "seen but not heard."

Powerful advice, Bob. It's the only way you will be able to get over your worldly thoughts of "pollution" ect. You do not want to REGRET as she will, a terrible transgression. Hers was against you but without forgiveness on your part, you will be in the same boat of transgressing against her.

Pray for God to give you forgiveness towards her as Christ forgave Peter's denial of Him. You are pouring your heart out on MB but perhaps it is time to really pour these thoughts out to God. ASK and you shall recieve.

Reading over this it seems at first sort of off topic but it really isn't. Pain over past actions is something that ALL must deal with regardless of the issue being infidelity or not. Whose pain is worse is really not that important in the scheme of things. I guess what I'm trying to stress here is that you have the option as a believer to take the gift of Divine intervention to deal with your own pain and to lead your wife by example. Her burden will be VERY heavy once she realizes.

Pain is pain, no matter which way you slice it. So at the end of the day, to me, it really shouldn't be an issue of who hurts WORSE if you look at the big picture of forgiveness and recovery although I do believe it can sometimes be harder to forgive YOURSELF than others. I personally would have MUCH rather been the BS but I will have to live with the fact that I was NOT forever. KB

Islandguy,,

Looking back at how my wife presented herself to me during her affair, I can recall how good of a mood she was in how she would kiss me and tell me I was the greatest husband in the world,, then walk out of the door to meet her lover,,, you ask if she truly glowed? She glowed so much that I thought I was the reason and she was so happy to be my wife.
When I say glowed I am not sole speaking about her face and complexion,, in a since her whole body glowed.
What kills me is that it is a sign of infidelity when a wife glows.... this is only true if the marriage does not have her glowing allready,, which I thought it did,, looking back at the events I know I was just in denial,,, Hey shes happy I'm happy right? WRONG

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
First, not ALL BSs become NEW and IMPROVED. There are those who must absolutely bear responsibility for a lack of recovery despite believing/claiming that they have "improved" themselves. Why? Lack of true forgiveness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KB, if the marriage truly recovers the BS MUST have become new and imporved right ?

Regarding total forgiveness, well that scares me.

Not only do I not think I CAN totaly forgive right now, my WW shows absolutely zero remorse and I have absolutely no desire to totally forgive right now. In fact thats wrong, I cannot even IMAGINE totally forgiving her right now. My forgiving machine burned out on D-day.

It worries me as I know I need to someday if we are to rebuild.

Things are still very new to us however. I am learning that things can change unimaginably for good, as they changed unimaginably for bad recently.

I really struggle with admitting responsibility for my WWs affair. My own failings were so tiny and infinitesimally small compared to the deliberate betrayal and humilation my WW chose my justice nerve screams indignantly when I see that I am expected to admit complicity.

Its like criminals saying "my landlord made me steal, cos he wanted his back rent". The landlord's behaviour was INVOLVED in the crime but he was in no way CULPABLE for it.

This is a big topic isn't it ? :)Gotta work. Big meeting in 8 minutes....

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob,
You know my situation friend and you are well aware of my intense pain and my struggle to survive this traumatic event. Please know that I understand your pain as well, as much as I can based on your detailed descriptions and explanations, but my knowledge of your pain can never be as acute as your own, so I preface my following comments with that statement and hope that you see them as they are given, out of empathy for your suffering and food for thought to consider things you might have not considered before my post.

Bob,
Is it possible that your W is holding onto to this dismal A due to her fear that you will not be able to forgive her of her trespass? Seeing as I have read your situation and your W's lover seems to be backpeddling with ever increasing speeds, speeds that might spin the earth off its axis. I ask this question, because your W knows you moreso than any other person on the earth I imagine. Your admittance to the uncertainty of forgiving your W for her actions and the defilement of your bonds and trust cuts deep, it is of course a deep cut for any H, myself included, but you express your extreme exception to her giving of herself to another so poignantly that I venture to guess she has known that due to the template of your convictions and frailties that she might KNOW that your forgiveness is highly unlikely. Your W knowing that your forgiveness is highly unlikely may be her prime reasoning for not returning to you, for her protective defensive strategies to hold out what seems tiny hope that she might escape your eyes, feeling that her sin is so catastrophic that she has lost you forever and at this point even the feeble crumbs OM has thrown are better to accept than the reality that her H who she wounded so deeply will never recover enough to love her as he had loved her all those years.

Frankly, Bob I truly see your situation as one of the more hopeful during my time here. Certainly your situation is more hopeful than mine in as much your W is home with no means to remove herself and no desire to either based on your posts. The OM is grieving the loss of his son and has also re-dedicated himself to his GF and all but deserted the R with your W. I am only suggesting, as I said earlier, I'm trying desperately to navigate my own personal hell and torment during my tribulations and maintain sanity, but if you might began to demonstrate that you are "capable" of forgiving your W's infraction, she might slowly began to allow herself to let go of OM. I have a sense that she desperately desires to return to you and regain her respect of her children as well, but it's possible she sees those goals as unscaleable, treachorous mountains and so she seeks the valley, not because it is her desire, but because she somehow feels it is the only route remaining?

Just a thought my dear friend. I understand forgiveness will take monumental efforts on your part and within it there must be a certain amount of responsiblity shouldered and a cleansing of the soul for both the offended and the offendee(sp). I have accepted that I too must begin this journey, as my W if she is to return or not, will be in my life until its end, as we have children together which will require at least minimal interaction and an air of contempt and bitterness will only add further strife to my children and myself in the long run.

FM

(edited for clarity not content)

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>