Just want to throw in my 2 cents. I probably deserve some kind of booby prize for my situation. In my M I have been, in order, the OM, the WH, and now the BS.

My A was strictly emotional. My sex life with my W was too wonderful to need to look for that anywhere else. But don't kid yourself EA's are extremely damaging. The OW in question was a workmate and friend of my W. I play guitar and both she and my W sing. We started playing music together and right off the bat the problems started. There was jealousy and competition between my W and OW. There was a musical chemistry between myself and OW that I didn't have with my W. OW started feeding my ego and playing me against my W. As my W got angrier, it just pushed me farther away and closer emotionally to the OW. I was completely in the 'fog'. I justified that everything was fine because I wasn't sleeping with her and didn't want too. We were just 'friends'. But I was giving more energy to the OW and developing a special relationship with her in the middle of something we were all doing together. When my W would get angry with me I would feel like she was trying to rain on my parade. When she begged and demanded more attention within the situation I felt like she was whinning and being selfish. I would then call OW to talk about my W being angry with me or demanding things and of course she would tell me that my W was unreasonable, and that I wasn't doing anything wrong. I was so deep in the 'fog' at this point that of course that was exactly what I needed to hear to justify my actions. My W insisted that we go to counseling. Didn't help. At that point I was trying to use the counselor to help me get my W to see my point of view. She went to my parents and I did the same thing. I was completely gone and treating my W horribly. I was critical of her singing when we played, I was completely detached to her emotional outpourings about what this was doing to her, it was really bad. Of course I look in hindsight to see this because none of my behavior seemed wrong at the time. This went on for about 6 months before my W insisted that we stop playing music with OW. I reluctently agreed. I think the 'fog' was starting to clear a little at this point I was seeing the OW true colors. But still in my head I felt like my W was taking from me my musical freedom as well. I went through a period of withdrawl. I wouldn't even pick up my guitar to practice or play with my W. This further upset her because she wanted to reconnect with me using the thing that was tearing us apart, music. For some reason I just could not get over the whole thing. I had to be right, dammit. I couldn't see my W's perspective. For those who know my story, this was the kicker, the start of the downfall of our relationship, the thing that led my W to withdraw from me and become my WW.

How could she have handled the situation differently? If she could have recognized the situation for what it was and not an attack against her that would have been a big help. She took everything I did so personally, and I had no idea at the time what I was doing to her. She would tell me but it was in one ear out the other. If she could have found MB and led me to it no question things could have been different for recovery. We tried to recover on our own with no professional help, no support from friends or family and no resources (books etc.)
That was a big mistake. Rather than reach out to me in recovery, she started withdrawing which made me feel more insecure and afraid to reach out to her. We then became so consumed by life, and a bunch of other stresses that things just started deteriorating fast. She withdrew further. I started going in to a depression. She had given up. I was paralyzed by fear. She assumed I didn't care about her, which wasn't true. And I was frozen with fear and depression that I was losing her, which was true. We just never recovered from the mess.

Now here I am on the 4 month anniversary of our separation desperatley trying to deal with the fact that my W is having an A and trying everything I can to get her to a least consider for one tiny little second, reconciliation. Not likely, but I can't give up.

I f***ed things up royally. I was consumed by my ego and a few unmet EN. I put another woman before my W and now I am paying the price. I am losing the most incredible woman I have ever known.

Thanks for the inpu, parkem1. This does sound a lot like my situstion. Do you think that a man in that situation would possibly become obsessed w/OW like to the point of waiting outside the restaurant where she worked at 11 pm for her to get of and walk out to her car? Or going to Victoria's secret and getting a sample of her lotion which he carried around in his work overnight bag? Is that a dead giveaway that it was also physical, or not necessarily, from your experience?

FHL,

I think the things you are describing are more likely in a PA. I honestly don't think our situation would have ever led me to become that obsessed. We definatley had an inappropriate friendship and I gave her too much of myself emotionally but I never would have carried her 'scent' or picked her up from work. But like I said ours was never physical and neither of us wanted it to be so it is probably and odd exception. Had the OW in my situation had been someone else who knows, but with this one it was just an inapropriate friendship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How could she have handled the situation differently? If she could have recognized the situation for what it was and not an attack against her that would have been a big help. She took everything I did so personally, and I had no idea at the time what I was doing to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Pakem, I just had to add something to this, it brought back some stuff for me.
Not taking it personally for her would be like her openly having sex with another man and then you not taking it persoonally. Imagine how it would have sounded to you if she had said to you that she was "just having sex, she wasn't doing anything wrong and you should stop trying to make her stop"!!! That is the equivalent to the emotional betrayal for Aa woman.

You probably get this now, but unfortunately most men don't and never will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

a question to FWHs...

My WH admits nothing, although he knows I know he had a long A and is still in contact. Maybe they have a vow of secrecy or he's afraid the truth will hurt his case in the DV.

He thinks that I asked for NC between he and OW as punishment to him and her. Tonight I told him that I asked for NC because the A is an addiction, and that he'll never see it realistically until he withdraws from the relationship.

My question is, did any of you realize the reason for NC while ending contact with the OW? Did your W say this to you, or did you read SAA or a similar book where you were told this? If so, did it make sense to you while you were still in contact or did you discount it as a stupid idea? Is it possible that my WH will understand the need for NC while he is still in the fog?

Thanks for any responses.

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

haywire,

has your H asked for a DV?
does he deny even having the A??

to be honest, my wife got so many relationship books after my A was exposed I honestly can not remember if I read SAA or not, I think I did. Seriously, there was a relationship book in every room in the house, including the bathroom.. relationship CDs, etc. were everywhere. Now I say all that jokingly, but it is true. And believe it or not, I picked those books up and read them, yes even the ones in the bathroom, (probably where I read the most)... Those books are like any other type of self help book, seminar, CD, etc., there is no silver bullet, but you get alittle bit from each one. And yes the NC actually made sense to me during the FOG... I tried to think what I was reading did not fit my situation, but I knew it was right on the money...

When you are in that FOG, and believe me the FOG can be rather THICK at times, so thick that you can twist anything around so that it works in your favor. You certainly do not want to think about NC, because then the A would end, and ending the A is too hard to think about. Of course he thinks the NC is punishment for him, thats the fog babble, get used to it, you will hear alot of it, IGNORE it...

Now my situation is a little different, I actually work with the OW and can not actually have NO contact. I try and limit the contact we have, which is very hard at times, but I know that is what I have to do to completely get past the addiction... believe me, it's hard, the EA is worse than the PA, harder to get past, at least for me...

hope that helps...
2, you got anything to add??

fogless...

fogless, thanks for responding.

My WH doesn't want a DV, but I'm at the end of my rope and have a lawyer and plan to file within a week. WH has a strong connection to our home, his place of work for 30 years, and I'm afraid that's his main reason for not wanting to leave.

He denies that he did anything wrong. A few months ago I woke up and saw the signs, asked questions and realized from his answers that he was in an A with his assistant, who he worked with at our home. Once aware, I saw more and more signs, finally seeing them kissing in the workplace at our home. I know much more went on.

The OW no longer works here, I insisted she leave the day I saw them kissing, but he and she still have contact. They still have a work relationship (she now works for a friend of his, on jobs that he has an interest in) and I know that they call each other on the phone obsessively.

It's good to hear that there's a chance he'll understand why I asked for NC. I don't have hope of saving our M, it would take too much of a will to change on his part that he probably doesn't have. But I would like to think that he might realize the truth of what's happened and how it affected the lives of his wife and daughter.

Haywire,

Sorry I didn't respond last night...I had to get some sleep. Did I understand the NC? Oh yeah...But understanding and doing are two different things. The physical part was fairly easy. My OW was in a diffenent state so cutting off physical contact was the easy part. BUT the emotional addiction was powerful and I kept wanting to talk on the phone. The OW would call and I kept answering. I got to the point where I didn't want to answer but did. Used to make me so mad at myself. I had to view the contact as poison to my marriage. My problem was my W gave me no hope for our future (still doesn't) so I knew I was cutting off contact with no hope. That is scary when you've never been alone before.

So, why are you filing for DV so fast? Why arn't you giving it some time to see if he can be worked with or if he can break free from the addiction and the fog? Have you worked a plan A or a plan B? Where are you in the process? I'll throw no 2x4's...we just want to help. What you're going through is incredibly painful. I'm sorry.

Have you exposed the A (presented WH with your proof)? Some men don't admit the A until they get caught. I know you saw the kiss but I'm sure he is downplaying that.."It was nothing", "We're just friends". Stuff like that. If you have phone records and other stuff expose it and tell him exactly what you want. Ask him to start with open transparency. You want his schedule, review the calls online daily, email passwords, etc. This can cause accountability and an end to the affair or it can cause him to go underground (buy a secrect phone, etc).

In the fog you understand NC but you want to wean out of the relationship a little at a time. Fogfears.

Good luck!

2scared

Fogless:

Hey, let's jump over and resond to this poor fogbound girl. I remember the stage she is in well. How about you?

Foggy girl

2scared

FHL,

In response, my W is openly having sex with another man now. I understand your point and I think my comment about not taking it personally was bit off. I take what she is doing now personally but since finding MB I have a much deeper understanding of A's and what was going on in my mind and what is now going on in hers. While it doesn't necessarily lessen the pain, it just helps me not take it as personally because I understand that she is in the 'fog'. I guess all I was really saying about how my W could have handled things better, would have been to seek out knowledge and help rather than sit there hurt thinking she could fix things on her own. Looking back now with the knowledge I have gotten from MB, I see many things my W could have done differently to help the situation. Unfortunately the onus to pull through an A initially falls on the BS. I am not trying to absolve myself for my actions, just looking back in hindsight, I wish for the sake of our M that she would have had more knowledge and support.

I gotcha, parkem. I know that tings may have been a lot different if I had MB from the beginning. I did a lot of things wrong too, that probably dug the grave for the M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
My "plan A" was full of demands and LBs, even though for the most part I was meeting all his ENs. The only thing I wouldn't do was leave him a lone, which was all he wanted.
If I could go back I would have done a better planA and gone to plan B much sooner. Oh well, as they say, hindsight is 20/20...

Yeah that damn hindsight thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I wish I could back about 6 months with the knowledge I have now.

2Scared, it's good to know that people in the fog might still understand NC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, why are you filing for DV so fast? Why arn't you giving it some time to see if he can be worked with or if he can break free from the addiction and the fog? Have you worked a plan A or a plan B? Where are you in the process? I'll throw no 2x4's...we just want to help. What you're going through is incredibly painful. I'm sorry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Scared, it's a looooong story. haywire's first post I think I was sort of in Plan A for years. Didn't do much LBing. Maybe I could have given more attention and adoration. But he'd be the first to say that it was a comfortable friendly relationship. Plan B isn't really possible with his work being based at our home.

I told him that we couldn't live together as long as he has contact with OW. When he stayed in contact, I forced him out of the house and expected he'd get an apartment. But no, he slept in his truck for awhile and a few weeks ago he moved a bed into a trailer on the property (not a house trailer) and has been staying there. It's not that he can't afford an apt., he either wants to be a martyr, or someone told him that leaving the property would hurt his case in DV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you exposed the A (presented WH with your proof)? Some men don't admit the A until they get caught. I know you saw the kiss but I'm sure he is downplaying that.."It was nothing", "We're just friends". Stuff like that. If you have phone records and other stuff expose it and tell him exactly what you want. Ask him to start with open transparency. You want his schedule, review the calls online daily, email passwords, etc. This can cause accountability and an end to the affair or it can cause him to go underground (buy a secrect phone, etc). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't told him I have hard evidence because I may need it as a last resort if this goes to court. I did describe the kiss I saw to him, so I'm sure he believes I saw that. But of course he says that it was nothing (as you said). He says kissing isn't sexual! I've exposed the A to everyone I can, including his family. He hasn't spoken to them through all of this. They are all very supportive of me and DD, and they all think I should DV him, including his mother and father. He still says he's done nothing wrong. He especially hates the idea of me snooping. At this point there's no chance of him agreeing to open transparency. I think I'm going to give him "Not 'Just' Friends" to read. If he looks at it maybe it will trigger something.

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

So I am headed back to San Diego today after being gone for a week...had a great time with family and friends. I have not heard from my H at all nor have I contacted him (with the exception of the card I sent a couple days ago). Believe me, I have wanted to contact him but thought I'd give the "sit tight", "wait for him" technique a try once again. It is hard! Should I try giving him a buzz when I get back tonite? Or shall I wait until I hear from him (which I fear will be never!)?

Thanks,

K

Bump for Jill.

Thanks believer!!

I almost missed that.

Gosh, there are so many WS's out there trying to break free from the addiction.

Hey guys... check it out and give the gal some help....

Jill

2scared

K-

If you've given him some space then go ahead and give him a call. Offer to meet him for coffee or a late night pie. Don't get too pushy but don't let him forget you either. Besides, you can ask him if he received the card. Good luck!!!! your doing awesome. Have faith and don't give up. He's still fogbound.

BTW.... I swim a mile 3 times a week... but that 26 mile run would kill me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2scared

Thanks...left a message with him tonite to let him know that I made it home ok and that I was thinking of him. He didn't call or e-mail me this past week (and besides the card, I haven't contacted him at all either).

It is sad getting off the airplane after a long trip and coming home to an empty apartment. H used to greet me at the airport with a huge smile and hug/kiss. Now I observe others doing this and it hurts <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . I also turned on the tv to Survivor season premier which reminds me that this is the first season where I haven't watched it with H. To top off my emotional night, one of my bridesmaids just shared news that she is expecting which I am elated about but once again saddened because H and I were to start trying after my race next month.

I am so torn...my parents so obviously want me to just move on but I remind them that I am following my heart and that they must respect my decision and also be accepting of H if he does return home. It hurts me that there will always be a damper on my marriage from my loved ones perspectives. How did you get over the skeptical family eyes post affair? What should my H expect if we ever reconcile?

I am still hurting...just want to feel loved by H again....my love bank is in debt.

By the way, swimming 3 x a week is awesome! The swimming is my hardest leg of the triathlon (I come from a running background). There were 2200 athletes in a mad scramble towards one buoy this past Sunday and I about had an anxiety attack with all the kicking/elbowing going on!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> TGIF (well, almost),

K

K-

Coming home to an empty, lonely apartment DOES hurt. I'm sorry. I know that saddness all to well. As to the family acceptance...that will depend on you. You will have to be the one that protects him during that reentry phase. Your not there right now but you are laying great groundwork by telling them it's your decesion. They will follow your lead on the acceptance and if they don't it will be up to you to correct them. When that time comes your H will feel very uncomfortable. You'll do the right thing.

Keep telling yourself (as I am doing too) that this process in not a short sprint. This is a marathon. Don't look for the finish at the one mile mark... we arn't even close yet. Stay hooked up and faithful. Hey, even if it doesn't work out you will know you tried with all your heart and you will have your dignity.

In the meantime, divert your mind... train harder! You have Hawaii coming up...train even harder. Good luck!

2scared

Yes...one long marathon it is. I sent H this e-mail this morning so we'll see if he responds. I am guessing he would have received my card either yesterday or today (no response yet)...do you think you would have responded to this when you were in the fog?

Hey S-I'm back in one piece! I missed you on the trip...you would have loved Madison. It actually looked a lot like Couer d'Alene but the city itself was larger and there was more nightlife due to it being a college town. 9/11 was a chilling memory...I remember that morning you called me to watch the news and I spent the rest of the day making sure friends/family on the east coast were ok and thinking about how blessed I was to have you in my life. I missed having you at the finishline. I missed having you grinning at me when I walked through the airport towards baggage claim and that welcome home hug and kiss always meant the world to me. Was watching the Survivor premier last night and realized this was the first premier of Survivor where I have not watched it with you. It was not nearly as fun without you embracing me on the couch. I hope you had a great week. Just wanted to let you know that I continue to think about you and miss you.

Love always,

K


Am I continuing to do the right thing by sharing my thoughts from the heart with him? Do you think he is absorbing any of it or just brushing it off his shoulder?

I will keep running for H even if this happens to be my slowest marathon ever!

Have a great day

-K