amy,

Glad to her the OW no longer works with your H, that certainly helps.. As for the mutal friends, well he just needs to not accept invites if OW is going to be there.

I understand how hard it can be to not say the things you said to him, but you have to keep from making those type comments, because it will cause him to think about the OW, and want to go to her for comfort etc. In my opinion the EA if much harder than just a PA.

Do you know what your H was missing in your M to cause him to see OW??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The things your wife said to you in your post - Did those words from your wife make you feel more guilty ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The things my wife said to me certainly did not make me feel more guilty, there was plenty of guilt feelings of my own. I remember my wife saying very little that was negative about me, the OW or the A. Her gut reaction was that for me to be in an A there has to be something missing in our M and she was determined to fix that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did they help you come out of the fog? Or just know that when you did come out she would be there for you ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You bet what she said helped me... Without her loving, caring words daily I would never have thought I could come home, that she would accept me back. I could tell that even though the A was hurtful to her, she didn't care about the A, she just wanted our family to survive....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you lose respect for her during your fog because she was acting like a doormat?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HELL NO I didn't loose respect for her during that fog. I saw a side of my W I had never really saw, a very strong, determined woman who was not concerned with her pain, only to do whatever it took to keep her family together, and make the M better...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are going to a cabin up in the mtns this week - would you suggest no M or R talk ? Just go there and have fun.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The cabin sounds like FUN, my W and I need to do that as well... I would suggest to just see how the weekend goes, don't push the M&R talk but if the oppurtunity pops up just go with your feelings.

Hope my fogless babble has helped....

fogless...

kjb,

The note sounds fine.. I think your on the right path, take care of YOU for now. When you return see if he makes any contact, if not, like you say, let him sit for awhile. He will come around...

Hey thanks for the ironman link, I checked it out last night... Hope you will continue to keep us posted on your training as you prepare. I will mark the 16 on my calendar so I can celebrate as you cross the finish line...

Hope my fogless babble has helped....

fogless...

What do you think of this list devised by some author who talks about pulling a 180 on your WS? I was advised to follow this list by Women of Faith for the time being. It seems like Plan B to me??? Also, I was just thinking this today...posted a thread even. If my WH really wanted me out of his life and with another man, wouldn't he have filed for divorce already? There is something that tells me that he is struggling so much internally, that deep down inside he knows that he not only loves me but also is still "in love" with me. What are your thoughts 2scared and fogless??? Thanks ( :


1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes his feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Fogless and 2scared,

Thank you for your replies. I am going to print out some of the information on this thread and also ask him to read it himself.

Fogless,

I will ask him if he would like someone to contact who has gone through this. Thank you for the offer. It may be something he needs to hear from another man who has been through it.

Thank you again to both of you. You provide so much inspiration and hope for many of us. You are both wonderful.

Fogless,

I think I know what my H is getting from the OW, although I haven't asked him to take the EN tests.
Did you and your wife take them ? Before or after the A ended?

What did you get from the OW ? And when did you start accepting that need from your Wife ?

Have you read this thread, "WS, How do you feel about OP now??" in the "In Recovery" category?

I gives me hope that the strong feelings for the OW will pass.

amy,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you and your wife take them ? Before or after the A ended?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I don't recall taking the test....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did you get from the OW ? And when did you start accepting that need from your Wife ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well my W has ask me this question and I have not really been able to answer it because to be honest, I'm not sure.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
So I will give you my thoughts...

I really don't think I was getting anything from the OW emotionally that I was not getting from my W. The only difference was when with the OW, there were no distractions, no kids, no broken garage door, no bills, etc. etc. so when with OW life was perfect, and that is because it was not real life... I think my W and I had gotten to "comfortable" in our M, we never took time for US which is something we should have done.

Of course there was always SF with OW, she was more adventurious than my W, alittle more relaxed, carefree... guess in a sense they were different so maybe that is why I was drawn to her, why the addiction was so strong..

I have not read the thread you talked about, but will check it out.
As for the feelings for the OW, well I continue to work with OW daily, (looking for new employement out of state), I still have feelings for her, still feel the need to help her. I'm still in the withdrawl stage, (not sure how long this will last), but I do see improvements daily, and I feel like it's only a matter of time...

Hope my fogless babble has helped....

fogless...

K-

I was reading the 180 ideas... It is more of a plan b. I don't think it's what you need just yet.

I think you all need to go back and reread fogless' last few posts about how his W reacted to him helping him out of the fog. You have no idea how that helps. Let me try to explain. When you're in an addiction (the A IS an addiction) there comes a point where you KNOW what you should do but you don't have the WILL or guts or ability to actually walk it out. There is this ripping away at your heart because you love your W and yet your "feel" in love with the OW (fantasy based). It is VERY hard to break free from that addiction. If the BW is loving and encouraging, then there is something to hold onto. There is a fear that if you let go of the affair, you will lose the fulfillment of the needs that the OW was meeting. If the wife is really looking internal at HER weakness and trying to become better at meeting the needs then breaking away is much easier (If it is easy at all). The reality is that the OW can never meet all the needs the W is meeting but the W can meet the needs the OW was meeting... IF she is willing to evaluate honestly. That is hard sometimes because it is a powerful emotion to realize your contribution to the A. Most BS want to blame outwardly even though they obsess about their faults in private. Why not admit the faults and work on a solution?

Anyway, if the W creates a home of peace and acceptance then the WH can let go and return to letting the W meet all his needs. I must make a side note here... if the A is still in the active stage (not wanting to even consider stopping) then there is a tendency to want the cake and eat it choice. So, giving in to all the needs can enable the A to continue. There is some gamble involved. That's why a plan B exists...if they refuse to chose to let go.

I think fogless wife needs a gold star for her wonderful example!

That was my soapbox for the night.

2scared

2 & K,

I agree, those are plan B steps, not needed at this point...

Hey 2, these were great comments...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you're in an addiction (the A IS an addiction) there comes a point where you KNOW what you should do but you don't have the WILL or guts or ability to actually walk it out. There is this ripping away at your heart because you love your W and yet your "feel" in love with the OW (fantasy based). It is VERY hard to break free from that addiction. If the BW is loving and encouraging, then there is something to hold onto. There is a fear that if you let go of the affair, you will lose the fulfillment of the needs that the OW was meeting. If the wife is really looking internal at HER weakness and trying to become better at meeting the needs then breaking away is much easier (If it is easy at all). The reality is that the OW can never meet all the needs the W is meeting but the W can meet the needs the OW was meeting... IF she is willing to evaluate honestly. That is hard sometimes because it is a powerful emotion to realize your contribution to the A. Most BS want to blame outwardly even though they obsess about their faults in private. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fogless...

Thanks 2scared...I thought the 180 plan looked a little bit harsh. I don't think I am a plan B type of gal although at some point I suppose I may have to. I am going to hang out a bit, try to focus on myself the next couple weeks. That letter was a big step for me and I want H to to think about it without me nagging at him to communicate thoughts that are in a large tangled web. He needs to make sense of what he has done and what I have said. I read Fogless posts...it is funny because early on, I asked why my H was drawn to the OW. He said that she was more laid back and could just hang out and watch tv and drink beer....how is this for a surreal life. He had a lot of stress in his life and I own a business and am training for IM so I am sure going back to her place and just drinking beer and watching tv was I nice break from the real world! It does sound like he is dating although I don't think anything has accumulated into a significant relationsip so at this point I am sure it purely physical satisfaction. I bet I can outlast her in that category after IM training ( ha ha ha).

Kind of ironic...in the mail today, my H and I received a letter from our wedding officiant, the first one since our wedding day on June 17th, 2001. It stated:

Dear K&S,
You have floated through my mind since your wedding day. Please let me know how you are doing. I am still performing lots of weddings and continue to practice of spiritual coaching (I help people reach their dreams). Please let me know how I can make your life more wonderful.

Love & blessings,

Judy

It is almost as she senses something is going on. I think if anyone would be a better marriage counselor to the 2 of us, it would be her. I am going to make a copy of the letter for myself and then send the letter in the actual envelope she sent it in to my WH along with the Harley books before I leave for Hawaii. Perhaps he may feel comfortable talking to her since he has refused other counseling.

I am glad you are having a good day by the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-K

K-

That's kind of a sick (in a good way) new approach to IM training! Hmmmmm.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2scared

Yes...I am sick (in a good way) but hey it has been 4 months since my Iron body has been able to perform in that aspect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2 days no contact...I feel like I am receiving love deposits from all except my WH...ugh. This is hard.

K-

Yeah, well... try having your BW change all the locks on your house. Hmmmm.. I think she's trying to tell me something.

My response... I love you. Always have, always will.

Is it easy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> No!

2scared

Hang in there 2scared...my WH told me to stay away, to call so we can meet in a mutually agreeable spot.

Mmmmmm...what is he hiding <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

2scared or Fogless...as WH, did you every consider serving up divorce papers to your spouses? If so, how long did it take you to even consider it?

If my H did, indeed, send someone over to serve me papers last night, I feel so stupid for hanging on to someone so content on treating me like dirt.

Perhaps when he read my letter, he took the comment..."S, I will continue to honor you, our marriage, and our love until I believe we don't have a chance." Maybe he took that to heart and said to himself...ok I'll serve her the papers cuz that will show her that we don't have a chance. Can you see the hell I have gone through since letting WH be the past couple days?

I want to hold hope but I just don't see my WH showing any signs that he wants to even try to make our marriage work. I know he loves me but I don't believe he wants to make an effort to reconcile and that makes me so extremely sad right now.

Thoughts?

-K

K-

Are you worrying what happened or what might happen?

Tonight answer the door. He might have been a politician on the campaign trail. Quit obsessing. You can begin to work through the "what if's" but don't obsess.

By the way... I'm wanting to reconcile. I won't file.

Your H is in the fog. Quit taking what he is saying as fact. I know his words hurt, that's why you have to insulate your heart.

Are you training?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

2scared

Hey 2scared...

I flipped out. It is hard for me when I am not able to communicate with WH. I have such a huge need for honest communication that I have been struggling with the mixed messages and lies WH has been giving me these past 4 months. And the thought of divorce does scare the living sh*t out of me...not something I want since I have been holding onto hope that the man I love and committed my heart and soul to for a lifetime will return home in the future. I did contact him today but only to get insurance info for dental care since I am headed off to the dentist next week. I kept it very short and ended it with...have a nice day, K. Not as emotional and deep or sentimental as previous e-mails I have sent as part of plan A but I know I need to step back a bit and let some of my words soak into his fogged head.

His mom sent me some more encouraging words since I flipped out about the possibility of being served last night:

I know for a fact that was NOT someone coming to serve you divorce papers! So---do NOT open your door for a stranger day or night, and TAKE your keys and lock your door when you take out the trash or go for your mail. Also, report this to the security people in your building immediately. IF????? you were to be served with papers sometime in the future (which I have no idea about) I would presume it/they will be given to you by Scott in person. So---stop worrying about that for now, and make sure you are safe from whomever is knocking on your door late at night. And, if you see that person again, call the police immediately. You also need to get yourself some mace or pepper spray to CARRY aimed and ready as you travel alone from your car to your apt. This something you must do starting today!!!!!! I mean it.......

So---that's my soapbox for today. Again, you were NOT being served! And---you must do something about your safety. Get the mace or pepper spray today, and, like I said, have it aimed and ready anytime you are out of the apt. and alone. That includes in the halls of your building. Anyone could grab you as you came around a corner, and force you into your own apt. Does that scare you???? I hope to hell it does! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm VERY serious about this....DO IT TODAY/NOW!!!!!! If you don't know where to go to get it, call the police station, and they will tell you what to get and where to get it. Write back ONCE you have it in your hand...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We love you, and want you safe.

Did you see my post about WH going to a wedding? Do you think this may help lift some of that fog in his head? He used to get very teary eyed and make comments to his friends like, "I am the luckiest man alive" when he'd witness weddings occurring. The wedding is one weekend from Saturday and I leave a few days later so I guess I'll see what happens. I was supposed to go to this wedding with him but he has failed to mention anything to me...guess he really doesn't want me there.

Hope all is well ( :

-K

And yes...I am training. Did a 4,000 yard swim this afternoon and will take a spin class tonite. I won another sprint triathlon this past Sunday despite having like 3 hours of sleep (a result of letting loose a bit with friends on Sat night!). Haven't necessarily been doing the volume for IM but am 6 for 6 in races won these past 6 weeks ( : Kona is all about crossing that finishline on Alii Dr. My goal was to qualify and now with my emotional stress these past 4 months, I told myself I was just going to go out and have fun with it rather than put pressure on achieving a certain time or place. If I place, that will just be an added bonus. Check me out at www.ironmanlive.com if you'd like on Oct 16th...the website shows live coverage of Ironman. My initials are KB, age 28, from San Diego ( :

So, did you go get the mace? Although, I would put my money on you anyway. There's nothing quite like a hard-body 28yr old who is pissed at her H and would like to tear the head off any man who crosses her path. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I told you not to worry. Now, get some sleep tonight. And...in all seriousness...get some mace and be careful.

2scared

Yeah...I do have a pretty intimidating 100 lb frame (ha ha ha). I guess I need to go out and get some spray though. Right now, I carry my keys between knuckles so if someone were to cross my path, I'd punch them in the eyeball. Being an independent woman for so many years throughout college, I learned a lot of self defense moves as well. So yes, all intruders of my space should watch out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />