Are you lurking?

I've replied to a couple of your posts and you have either missed them or you're not talking to me anymore.

There is another Aucklander on here in the divorcing section and I wondered how I could go and delete all my posts about Auckland. I gave away WAY too much information. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You are not in a good place at the moment and I wondered how you are doing. I've just edited this because it wasn't helpful (again).

Jen

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

KiwiJ,
I responded to a few of your posts but not all. Didn't resally know what to say. I guess I should have at least acknowledged the response, though.

I'm sorry my post to Cliff upset you. I was just lertting him know that everything that he felt/posted I had felt. My reference to him spying on my journal should make that clear. I said the only difference was I used the "S" word instead of the "W" word.

I used these words to my wife back last winter. I have not used them since although I have thought them even recently.

Sorry I'm having a tough time with forgiving her. I don't want to be the booby prize. I also don't want to be married to a person who continues to lie to me about her thoughts and actions. She lies under the guise of "not wanting to hurt my feelings." I also don't want to be the alternative to the soul mate.

Went to the beach today. Most of it was fine, but my mind still turned to the ocean, the boats and the bathing suits coming off. Sorry I guess I need a frontal lobotomy so I can forget the betrayal.

In the past I've been very honest with my W about my thoughts. She doesn't want to hear it.

As I've recently told other posters, I've always had trust issues. My W was the one person I thought I could always trust to cover my back.

How do you trust again? Doesn't trust have to be earned? I set up a test back in winter. Results (buzzer sound) Wife failed. Wife lied.

Anyway that's my life these days.

Mac

I hoped you wouldn't see the sl** thing but you obviously did. I guess in the very early days Rob used words like "b;tch" but he's so far past all of that now. I don't know what it is about him that he has been able to forgive everything. I suppose I should take some credit for truly coming back to our marriage. H even said the other day he fantasised about me and him in a car. I sort of looked at him in sort of amazement but he had a big grin on his face. That's really moving on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mac, sometimes I think this could have so easily gone the other way for you - that you could have been the one who had the A. I may be way off base with that and if I am I apologise.

I don't know what you should you do but you are obviously still very unhappy.

Gee, I thought I'd come on here and give you some more geographical facts - doesn't seem appropriate now. Sometimes I'm driving into work along the sea front and looking at the city all sparkling in the distance and think, I should take a photo and send it to you. I know I go on about it but I really do live in a beautiful city.

Jen

kiwiJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mac, sometimes I think this could have so easily gone the other way for you - that you could have been the one who had the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our marriage was to the point where I thought about it. Had oppurtunity but in the end couldn't go thru with it.

That's probably one of the things that bugs me so much. I had the deire to get the ego boost but in the end I made the right choice. She made the wrong choice.

oh well...

Mac

So, what ARE you going to do... you can't let things go on like this.

:::::That's probably one of the things that bugs me so much. I had the deire to get the ego boost but in the end I made the right choice. She made the wrong choice.

cwm, Have you done the self analysis bit about why you "couldn't go thru with it"? Why did you make the right choice? I've spent a lot of time figuring it out in myself - because I'm always trying to understand what went wrong with him.

I had exactly the same opportunity as my H. Here in Asia, on my own for 3 months, with an OM pursuing me. His wife was also living away o/s and we used to go out quite often for company. Perfect opportunity to do whatever we wanted and he made it clear what he wanted, but I'm not sure about my desire for him. The desire has to be quite strong. It has to be someone you REALLY fancy a lot (for various reasons). I don't think I've ever been tempted with an OM enough. Apart from the flight attendant 4 months ago. But that was hopeless coz I knew all the down sides by then - how could I get all those self deceptions past my nose successfully?

So you have to be ignorant of the process of getting sucked into an improper relationship. And you have to be someone who has below par self image. So that the ego boost is important enough to cover the risks involved and the terrible guilt.

From this I'm thinking that you had previously felt self assured e.g. attractive as a male, and possibly the women you came across didn't fill your head, heart and loins with sufficient desire? Or enough desire to have you jumping thru hoops for them?

Btw, are you normally a truthful person? Being able to lie is not a quality that everyone has. My H always had the tendency and I never did. He is a quiet, non confrontational type, who probably found lying easier than offending. This meant that he was comfortable (enough) with lying when he was full of desire for OW. Lying to himself and lying to me. I've never been much of a liar. Too much like hard work. Easier to tell it like it is. It can't be that bad etc. Of course I'll tell someone the dinner was nice, even if I was having difficulty keeping it down. Most of us are comfortable with that level of lying. But those of us who are uncomfortable with complex lies would find having an A quite difficult.

Another thing that WS's seem to have in common is an ability to disconnect from their existing emotional ties. This is probably something they learned in childhood (when they were learning to lie). Perhaps their parents weren't particularly warm or emotionally responsive. They were expected to be independant early on etc. I suspect that people raised in a family environment where they felt very loved and safe, would find it hard to behave in a disconnected manner, later in life, for something as unstable as an extra marital affair. I know I never learned to disconnect in the way my H learned. I had thought that my ways had enveloped my H and he basked in the love and affection that I provided. He was away from me a lot when the A happened. So it was easier to call up the more disconnected person that he was raised to be.

Does any of this ring true for you or your wife? Sorry if none of it makes any sense.

Jenny: Your H is amazing really. You said that you thought you could claim some of the credit. I don't think you can. Many, many WS's have tried to plan A their BS's, without much success. Usually the hurt is way too deep for a BS to feel better that the WS has fully returned to the M. It's just a very long haul to recover from the type of pain one experiences when they are betrayed. When considering the length of your M and the length of the A, I think you have been extremely lucky. Is your H still on Aropax? If he's now strong enough to deal with your A without medication and he's taking it so well still, then fantastic. He's a star.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong>Jenny: Your H is amazing really. You said that you thought you could claim some of the credit. I don't think you can. Many, many WS's have tried to plan A their BS's, without much success. Usually the hurt is way too deep for a BS to feel better that the WS has fully returned to the M. It's just a very long haul to recover from the type of pain one experiences when they are betrayed. When considering the length of your M and the length of the A, I think you have been extremely lucky. He's a star. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was she lucky? Yes and it also took a ton of work including listening and learning and APPLYING what she learned on this site, not to mention the 6 months worth of 3AM to 6AM A coversations with her H. She CAN and SHOULD take credit Anyname, for all she has done to right the wrong that she did. There are many more of us who can and should also.

You might want to take a peek at my response to Bob Pure on this thread as to why recovery can be hampered by the BS.

Yes, some of it is luck but MUCH more than luck is required to get to a full recovery. Recovery is not a one way street and Jenny has done her share.

KiwiJ,
I really don't know. I guess I'm hoping that lightening will strike and I'll be cured. Maybe it's the full moon. I am a little looney.

Anyname,
You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does any of this ring true for you or your wife? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every word of it describes my wife and me to a tee.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Btw, are you normally a truthful person? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yep. I'm also the type of person who has their feelings written all over their face.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H always had the tendency and I never did. He is a quiet, non confrontational type, who probably found lying easier than offending. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never realized this about my wife. Guess I'm a little dense. She is very nonconfrontational to the point of being a conflict avoider. She's also a pleaser. Wants to make everybody happy. Let's people walk all over her. I never realized I was doing that, too. Why? Because she would never tell me. What a friggin' paradox?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another thing that WS's seem to have in common is an ability to disconnect from their existing emotional ties. This is probably something they learned in childhood (when they were learning to lie). Perhaps their parents weren't particularly warm or emotionally responsive. They were expected to be independant early on etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife isn't as able to disconnect from her emotions as I am. She is, however, extremely independent. I guess extreme independence is a sign of detachment. Isn't it? She's been this way since her childhood. Her parents were strict and father is a very "cold fish" and since girls look to their fathers for self-realization. Bingo.

I am the same way. I'm definitely emotionally detached from parents.

We are both also "first borns" which doubles the control issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you done the self analysis bit about why you "couldn't go thru with it"? Why did you make the right choice? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the hard one because I can detach just like the wife can. I was raised in a more difficult environment. Since the A brought out several self-esteem issues for me that had been buried for a quarter of a century, I always thought that my self-esteem was lacking and hers was good. Wrong on that count. I was also the one more likely to abuse alcohol.

I guess I'm saying that if you add it all up, I'm the one who should have experienced the self loathing attitude and associated behavior of an affair.

As I said before, I have had plenty of oppurtunity. They, however, have all been more along the lines of ONSs and not longterm affairs.

One memory in particular was a broker party. I started talking to a cute hostess. We clicked. It could have easily developed into a ONS or possibly even a longer term A. The hostess wanted to hold hands and "go for a walk" I'll never forget the voice in my brain shrieking "stop, whoa big guy, non, nein etc" I hate to admit it but it wasn't really the thought of my wife that stopped me. It was the thought of my three great Ds. I even remembe thinking that I wouldn't want anyone to treat them that way. I have always tried to be a good example. I excused my self and said I need to go the bathroom (lou for the Aussies) and I walked right past the restrooms and got in my car and drove away.

Unfortunately I never told my W this story at the time. I felt guilty for even having the internal conversation. Kept it a secret. Big mistake.

My wife is always concerned with our Ds and their self images. What could she have been thinking during the A? Did she not ecen think about the shining example that was casting towards our Ds? I think my oldest is aware of the A. If she follows in mom's footsteps I'll be devestated.

So combine a trust worthy, honest, bad lying, emotion wearing, resentment filled moral guy who has trust issues and a conflict avoiding, practiced lying, independent, low self-esteemed gal with way too much time on her hands and you have a pretty good picture of the cwmacs for the past 15-20 years.

Anyname, thanks for the thoughts on a typical WS. Where did you come by this? Just reading varios posts here at MB?

All for now,

Mac

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

My initial post sounded like a piece of fogwaffle because I talked about the OM so I've deleted it and started again.

Basically, though, I was saying that Anyname's description of a WS doesn't fit me in the slightest. The only thing that fitted was being ignorant of the process of how an inappropriate relationship can suck you in.

And also, I grew up in a loving, stable family. My dearly, dearly loved late father was an exceptional man, just as Rob is an exceptional man. My mother and I have the sort of mother/daughter relationship that is REAL friendship. I am very, very proud to say that my daughter and I have that too. AND she knows all about the A.

To disconnect from my emotional ties I had to make a huge, huge leap from my moral and ethical boundaries.

And I cannot agree that the success of our recovery lies completely with Rob. The WORK that has gone into this from both of us....

Jen

<small>[ August 31, 2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Anyname, I just reread your post and wanted to throw a couple of thoughts your way.

*********************
QUOTE from ANYNAME:

So you have to be ignorant of the process of getting sucked into an improper relationship. And you have to be someone who has below par self image. So that the ego boost is important enough to cover the risks involved and the terrible guilt.
*********************

I know that you've talked about the self esteem issue both in terms of the BS as well as the WS many times before. I personally can't begin to imagine how one's self esteem nosedives after such a huge betrayal but I do understand why it is an issue to you. I have always felt that one of the problems of trying to decipher the "whys" of an event have to do with sorting out the relevance of generalizations vs. the particulars.

In the end the FWS you know the best is your own. MAC's FWS is the one he knows. These FWS are the ONLY ones that matter. If it is a goal to box everything up neatly and assume that WS fall into a "typical" pattern, it is achievable but let me throw a few thoughts in.

First, low self esteem SOUNDS good as a reason for the WS to entering into an affair but in reality the WS can esteem their own self so highly that they are able to do something without regard for their loved ones. In other words it was not a LACK but an EXCESS of self (esteem or regard.) Do you see how that can feed into the disregard for proper boundaries? It can be the opposite of what it appears to be. You can probably guess I know this from personal experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

There is also Jenny's type of situation in which she met up with an old BF with whom she never had closure. His "familiarity" may have helped her leap her moral and ethical boundaries where a stranger would not have achieved the same result.

**********************
QUOTE BY ANYNAME:

Btw, are you normally a truthful person? Being able to lie is not a quality that everyone has. My H always had the tendency and I never did. He is a quiet, non confrontational type, who probably found lying easier than offending. Most of us are comfortable with that level of lying. But those of us who are uncomfortable with complex lies would find having an A quite difficult.
**********************

Unfortunately lying becomes somewhat of a neccesity when conducting an affair. It is not always an inherent characteristic but is definetely a skill that can be learned. If the OP is already a skilled liar then the WS can transfer the knowledge gained to his or her own situation. I try to apply what I learned from OM (Con Man), to help BS sort through their WSs words. I feel it is the least I can do at this point.

*********************
QUOTE from ANYNAME:

Another thing that WS's seem to have in common is an ability to disconnect from their existing emotional ties. This is probably something they learned in childhood (when they were learning to lie). Perhaps their parents weren't particularly warm or emotionally responsive. They were expected to be independent early on etc. I suspect that people raised in a family environment where they felt very loved and safe, would find it hard to behave in a disconnected manner, later in life, for something as unstable as an extra marital affair.
*********************

This is interesting and possible but as Jenny pointed out not always true. The factor of PreA marital emotional disconnect has to be factored in as well. If husband and wife have been preoccupied with work, children, social obligations ect. and the emotional needs not attended to, a disconnect is already in place BEFORE the A.

In your case, Anyname, did the A not occur while you were separated? (I can't remember.) I do remember you saying you had your hands quite full between your Mom and problems with one of your children.

I suppose I wanted to share these thoughts because in the end all the theorizing in the world about any FWS's probable character flaws as part of a "typical WS” picture might blind a BS to what is relevant in their own recovery picture. For example if my H were to try to apply the family of origin emotional disconnect theory to me, it might blind him to the fact that there was a very obvious (in hindsight) disconnect between the two of us.

It is THAT disconnect that would then need to be addressed in our recovery process. This requires him to examine HIMSELF in order for US to get to a place of recovery. If he takes the moral high ground and focuses on what he believes to be my deeply ingrained character flaws as the (primary) reason I had an affair, our recovery would (have)take(n) much longer. Recovery is a TWO WAY street.

Your FWS is your own and you must sort out your own particular situations without heaping any extra coals (coals that don't belong) on your spouse's heads. To try to apply generic characterizations (in reality DJs) when they possibly may not apply can hinder a BS from seeing what truly needs to be worked on to repair the marriage. Does this make any sense to you? KB

KB, I'm not even going to say it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I also wanted to add, but that was the fogese bit in my last post, that my situation had it's own dynamics. You are SO right KB, I wasn't tempted by anyone else (but old b/f)in 30 years. If it hadn't been him I would never, never, never have entertained the idea of an A. I was also going to say the situation with old b/f (OM) had lots of stuff behind it (his jealousy of me getting engaged to Rob, the fact we never had sex, all sorts of stuff) that I really don't want to rehash it. I've been over and over this with JL, with our MC, with Rob, that I really don't want to revisit it again. It's over, gone, finito.

Mac, if you were a WS you would be accused of rewriting the history of your marriage. You know I feel much more comfortable talking about surfing and cities with you but we're talking about your marriage now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You said you're not a liar, you're moral etc etc. I know your w was a huge liar about the EA/PA thing but has she been a liar all your m. Have you ever thought about why she lied about the PA?

You see Rob thinks I'm smart, funny and the sexiest thing on two legs. Do you think your w is all those things? He never lost sight of the fact that the "me" he knew for all those years was the real me and the one that looked at him with "cold, hard eyes" (his words) was not the real me. He knows I'm a moral person - he also knows I'm a stupid one.

Jen

KiwiJ,
Why did she lie about PA? Because she thought I'd leave her. Until I found out about the PA and the 2 years of lies I had never gotten angry with her. I was in a good Plan A.

Rewriting history? No I don't think so. You see the lying goes back to our dating days.

My wife lied to me about a guy while we dated. Had I known the truth I wouldn't have asked her to marry me. This piece of info was dropped on me the night my W told me about the P nature of the A w/ OM.

Anyname's desription despite what KB says fits my wife like a glove.

Mac

OK.

Well, I thought I was similar to your wife. I guess I'm not.

I think you have reached the absolute crisis point in your marriage and I think you have problems that go far beyond the A. I'm not even close to being any kind of counsellor so I'm not even going to try.

Can we talk about surfing now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Was that horribly inappropriate? I'm sorry if it was. I'm out of my depth with your situation. I can only say that I'm just so sorry you are in the place you're in. {{{Mac}}}

Jen

Interesting aside. Rob saw the friend today that I talked about in the "mouth hanging open" thread. It brought up A talk again.

I said you do know that d-day anniversary is next month. He said "I'm well aware of that and feel it running towards us." I told him about the "rage bubbling up" thread and he said he feels more than ever he would like to smash OM in the mouth. He looks for his car everywhere.

I didn't know this and it has been a bit of a revelation.

Jen

double dang it - never happens to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

:::::it also took a ton of work including listening and learning and APPLYING what she learned on this site, not to mention the 6 months worth of 3AM to 6AM A coversations with her H. She CAN and SHOULD take credit Anyname, for all she has done to right the wrong that she did. There are many more of us who can and should also.

KB

Can we congratulate a WS for realising the mess they've created and their efforts to fix it? Talking for hours day and nite is pretty standard fare for those who are remorseful and want their former relationship restored. From my perspective, when you pack a blow as powerful as betrayal towards your nearest and dearest, and you decide that your relationship with them is more important than the rogue relationship, you have little option but to work your butt off to try to do anything you can to fix it. I'm wondering whether that is something that a person should receives credit for. They created an ungodly mess, and trying to fix it seems the least they can do. When I tell my friends that my H is trying really hard, the standard answer comes back; "and so he bl**dy well should!". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


cwm

::::yep. I'm also the type of person who has their feelings written all over their face.

Me too.

:::::I never realized this about my wife. Guess I'm a little dense. She is very nonconfrontational to the point of being a conflict avoider. She's also a pleaser. Wants to make everybody happy. Let's people walk all over her.

Geez, this IS spookie. You are talking about my H! You said your W wants to make everyone happy. I would have said my H wants everyone to like him. Don't you think it's weird that our conflict avoiding S's, end up creating more conflict in their lives than either of them thought possible? Plus they, who want everyone to be happy, took on a role that could easily make a lot of people extremely unhappy.

::::I never realized I was doing that, too. Why? Because she would never tell me. What a friggin' paradox?!

I don't think your behavior has anything to do with what she did. She was prolly happy for you to be the one in charge. I assume she's thrown your controlling ways in your face since her A? But before her A, I doubt that it bothered her much. A quick step diversionary tactic?

It seems to be that the people pleasers are more vulnerable to A's. They are too easily manipulated. Once the 'special' attention starts from OP, they don't like to say no, because they they always find it hard to say no and that's because they never like to offend. Eventually it gets out of hand, and they're in too deep. You can think back to your own situation. You are reasonably assertive yeah? But even you snuck out the back door rather than face the OP!

You have to remember that our S's were interacting with *another person*, a real living breathng person who they had developed a sense of accountability to, and who was being VERY nice and VERY complimentary to them. They are feeling they should stop, but they find it hard to on two levels; The flattery (the feel good factor) and their inability to say no. The flattery makes them want to reward the giver and what with their usual difficulty in saying no - it's just too hard to put the brake on. (some of this I learned during the interaction with the flight attendant. I was surprised how hard it was to put an end to 'the feel good' factor and also I was overly concerned about being nice to him. One night I was trying to text message him a well worded "no I can't meet you" message and I'm really slow on text messaging and it was driving me nuts trying to make it sound just perfect, when it suddenly occurred to me; why am I bothering to consider his feelings? Stand him up. He's a cheating a/hole. What do I owe this guy? (light bulb moment!)


I think our WS's fail to make that connection and continue the game of being real nice to the OP, unable to see them in their true colours, as a preditor on their M and on their happiness. They get in deeper and deeper until they are addicted. And all the while they are becoming more and more desensitised to what they are doing.

There was a great post about certain people being more vulnerable to manipulation and sexual preditors than other people. I'll try to find it for you. It was written by a BH. It made a lot of sense to me as it described my H pretty well.


M::::y wife isn't as able to disconnect from her emotions as I am. She is, however, extremely independent. I guess extreme independence is a sign of detachment. Isn't it? She's been this way since her childhood. Her parents were strict and father is a very "cold fish" and since girls look to their fathers for self-realization. Bingo.

My H was also extremely independant. From an early age. His mother was a "cold fish" too. Barely had a maternal bone in her body.

I know that the ability to disconnect is part of the puzzle but my thoughts are far from clear about how important it is. The ability to disconnect plays a part in the A. This is one of the major hurts felt by the BS, that their S distanced themselves from them and chose independance from them. Obviously some are better at doing this than others. WS who confess are an example of those who cannot keep up the disconnectedness.

:::I am the same way. I'm definitely emotionally detached from parents.

Yes, and I have a friend who is totally disconnected to his parents, but I can never see him being unfaithful to his W. I think an A comes about because of a combination of factors. The ability to lie is very significant though.

::::We are both also "first borns" which doubles the control issues.

Never heard this. Is it important?


::::: always thought that my self-esteem was lacking and hers was good.

Yikes, that's exactly the same for us.

OK, here's something else to run by you. Suppose your self esteem is a bit fragile. You struggle to believe you are truly worthwhile. Would having an A benefit your self esteem or take what little you have away completely? I also thought my H had high self-esteem. So continuing on this idea, what if people with high self esteem get caught up with an OP. If their self esteem is high, they might think they can afford to lose a little self respect. Where as the likes of you and me, don't want to squander any of the belief we have in ourselves. I can honestly say that one reason I didn't cheat is I would have lost my self respect. I would have felt such a worthless person, and I'm not sure that I could have got rid of that feeling ever.

One thing though. There might be two types of self esteem. My H is a confident, competent academic. Intellectual stuff comes easy to him. But he has never had much of a clue with women. Didn't know how to flirt or chat them up. In the 35 yrs I was with him before the A, I never saw him flirt or come on to another woman! What if it's that area of self esteem that is lacking and that makes them vulnerable to unexpected flattery/attention?


::::Wrong on that count. I was also the one more likely to abuse alcohol.

YUP, that's me. I see that you've stopped?!


::::I guess I'm saying that if you add it all up, I'm the one who should have experienced the self loathing attitude and associated behavior of an affair.

Are you a good looking man? If so this could have compensated for other areas of self doubt. I tend to think that vulnerability to an A, is about one's percieved attractiveness, or lack there of, to the opposite sex.

::::::::::I even remembe thinking that I wouldn't want anyone to treat them that way. I have always tried to be a good example.

Ok, so you are controlling, but you have a strong sense of fair play and justice?

Would you say that you have high self respect? I tend to think that faithful people place a high value on doing what is right. They have an inherent sense of the rightfulness of things.

:::::Unfortunately I never told my W this story at the time. I felt guilty for even having the internal conversation. Kept it a secret. Big mistake.

Actually, I don't think it would have changed anything. My H knew I was pursued by OM for that three months. He was very grateful that I kept contact with him continually telling him where I was and what I was doing. He was nervous but trusted me. It didn't save me from being cheated on by him though.

These S's are not thinking about any of the special moments we've shared, or any of the carefully chosen gifts we've given them or any of the support and devotion we've placed their way. Why would they care that we sacrificed 'a bit on the side' for them? Nothing we'd done for or with them in the past counted for anything. So don't beat yourself up over that.


::::My wife is always concerned with our Ds and their self images. What could she have been thinking during the A?

God only knows! Our son was 23 at the time and daugher was 25. Young adults, still at home, with wonderful senses of humor and caring attitudes to the world around them. H was immensely proud of them. It didn't even cross his mind what they would think of him running round with a 26 yo desperately poor girl from a third world country, for sex? This was a side to him they could never have believed possible. It's like "hey kids, you want to watch your dad f*** up his life in spectacular fashion?" And to think, I used to worry that one of them would screw up, with drugs or dropping out of school or bad relationships ....

:::If she follows in mom's footsteps I'll be devestated.

Your job is to make sure it is clear to them that unfaithfulness is profoundly wrong. I think wise words from a respected father at an early age can have lasting impact. My father once told me "you can't build happiness on the misery of others". It stuck.

:::So combine a trust worthy, honest, bad lying, emotion wearing, resentment filled moral guy who has trust issues and a conflict avoiding, practiced lying, independent, low self-esteemed gal with way too much time on her hands and you have a pretty good picture of the cwmacs for the past 15-20 years.

And no one told you that you had all the ingredients for an A cooking. Coz, you never learn this stuff until it's too late.

:::Anyname, thanks for the thoughts on a typical WS. Where did you come by this? Just reading varios posts here at MB?

I spend hours trying to nut it out. MB's only real source of information.

KB, I didn't see the other posts after cwm's reply or I wouldn't have replied to him with more of my theorising. Basically though I go about trying to help myself in the best way I know. If my theories are crap to some then it doesn't matter - it's my process to my healing. BSs are hit with a terrible betrayal with no clue as to why. I feel there is an answer to why. There's an answer to everything in life, and if you keep searching you just might find your answer(s). Lorenzo's Oil?! Like every other BS here I have read and read and tried to apply what I think measures my situation. All of what I've come up with has come from what I've read here. I have looked for understanding because it's meant to be the necessary step to acceptance.

My situation was unusual but I don't think any thing I did caused our M to be vulnerable to an A. I don't paint my H as totally evil - just extremely disappointing. However, our living apart was of his making. His choice and done for him first and foremost. I acquiesced out of love for him and wanting him to be happy. I was not happy with it but decided to make the best of it. We decided together how we would deal with his being away. He told me that people go to the antartic for a couple of years at a time and it would be much easier for us because we'd be together every few weeks. I was trying to be in 3 locations at once - two of them required a lot of energy and emotion - my mother was so very ill, going thru endless rounds of radiation for bone mets that got worse by the month. Second location was my home state where my daughter was having a terrible time with depression after the break up of her long term relationship. One time I left my H in Asia early after a distress call from my son asking me what to do about his sister who was in a terrible state. I didn't know the OW was waiting for me to leave. I didn't even know that I was severely anaemic. Only learned about it after seeing a doctor for emotional state after d-day.

Now after 30 yrs of M to a wonderful man, you kinda think that they're grown up enough to stand by you while you turn yourself inside out to attend to family problems. I consider it a huge betrayal to not be supportive, let alone to run around, in public with a desperado young woman and place even more *&^% in my lap.

So, rightly or wrongly, I can't do the ENs list and work on where I went wrong and take my medicine for not fussing over my H enough. Fix the M and live happily ever after. I feel extremely p'd off at being betrayed when I needed help and support. I don't feel responsible, even vaguely. I was as good a wife - actually I was a damned good wife and I think that's where I went wrong. He doesn't have that any more. He's got an emotional mess who is volatile and unstable. He does all the work, he does all the supporting and he feels 100% responsible for causing so much pain to me and our relationship.

Like many WS, he works like crazy to undo the damage. He wouldn't even think of giving himself credit for his efforts. He feels he doesn't deserve credit for doing what he should have done all along.

Btw, many BSs have Ss who are model Ss since their As. In spite of this, the BSs do not forgive nor respond well to their efforts. They continue to feel deeply aggrieved and humilated. That's the nature of the infidelity beast. That's why many marriages fail after infidelity is discovered.

AN

Anyname, I surrender. The thread is yours now and you can do whatever you like with it.

Amd, yes, I am p'd off.

Jen

KiwiJ,
I don''t get your last response are you seriously p'd odd at Anyname or are you being facetious???

Mac, the dense one

Jen, please don’t be upset. It is good to dialog about this and it is not meant to hurt you personally I’m sure. Anyname is expressing where she is at, and attempting to work this out by logical analysis. Unfortunately processing affairs doesn’t always lend itself to logic and you are watching her trying to make some sense of it all. It’s a good thing really. She is angry and hurt and she has the right. It is a good goal to move beyond this place and hopefully this discussion will help.

Anyname, your husband was stupid, a good liar, uncaring, and he wasn’t thinking of all the wonderful things you have done thru 30 years of marriage. He didn’t care enough about you not to embarrass and humiliate you by chasing after a young maid with a nice rack. You have every right to be p/oed at him, the question is, now what?

Sounds like your H is doing the groveling, pleading, placating and a** kissing that you feel is your due. What next? Is the A going to define you and your life forever? Does it define your 30 years together? If you want to throw away the chance at a happy, recovered marriage at this point because he was failed you, that’s your right.

You have made a good case to feel the way you do but you haven’t done the ONE thing that can only come from YOU to recover your marriage: FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is not something he can earn, it is a gift that you must give. You are not there. (yet?) Only you can decide when you’ve gotten your pound of flesh.

My H feels strongly that God put it in his heart to forgive me only after he was shown his own failures and sins; he had to see himself as not perfect before he could accept my imperfections and sins. Your dilemma is that you cannot see or accept that you have failed (or sinned) in any way; you consider yourself GOOD and therefore cannot accept that your H wasn’t GOOD in return to you.

You may be a good wife, mother, a good person if one is grading on a curve, but I’ve never met a perfect person and I doubt you are the first. We all have our failings. Honesty with ourselves WS or BS, is a necessary step to recovery. You and CW may be dead on in your analysis of your spouse’s weakness (or maybe not) but what are you going to do about it?

Exchange them for another set of people with their own weaknesses and failures? You’ve built a LIFE with these people and now you have to decide whether you want to throw that away because of an A. This is your right but you run the risk of living with bitterness for the rest of your life.

Grudges and chips on shoulders have a way of weighing people down. You can cling to the saddle of the BS high horse as long as you wish but it will not restore your marriage, Anyname. It’s your choice. My H and Jen’s extended grace and mercy towards us, as undeserved as it was and we have do have recovered marriages. It would be wonderful to see you and MAC in the same place. Trust me; it is way better than where you are at now. You summed up what I am trying to get through to you in this quote:

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QUOTE from ANYNAME:

Btw, many BSs have Ss who are model Ss since their As. In spite of this, the BSs do not forgive nor respond well to their efforts. They continue to feel deeply aggrieved and humilated. That's the nature of the infidelity beast. That's why many marriages fail after infidelity is discovered.AN
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Only you can decide if you want your marriage to succeed Anyname. For some BSs including yourself, it's not a question of CAN'T respond or forgive, it's WON'T. Your husband is trying to handle his end, it's sad that you seem to minimize his efforts. He could have just as easily told you to get over it without further fanfare or disscussion as some FWSs on this site have. But he hasn't, so the ball is in your your court at this point. KB