Kloe -

Can you afford to consult with Harley?

I am just worried that you are becoming too compliant in the non-passion of your marriage. I am just worried that after all these months there should be something.

The goal is to save your marriage not sit by and let it die a natural death. Seems very strange to me that your husband is so non -sexual if OW is out of the picture.

Do you think your WH is still depressed?

Call one of the experts out if necessary to get some feedback on this, if you can't talk to one of the Harley's okay?

Only you know what is best in your sitch but I have been thinking about you lately, and wanted to get you talking and thinking a little. (well I'm sure you are thinking all the time, but you know what I mean) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Weaver

Well after spending over 6 hours here today just hanging out, he just left. Not once did he bring up talking about anything, even though he was the one who sent me an e-mail this week specifially stating (twice) that he wanted to talk this weekend. When he left he said he would call me tomorrow.

Weaver - I'm going to start another thread asking for more advise along the lines of your thoughts. Thanks!

Kloe,
It sounds like your husband is making excuses to come over and spend time with you. My husband also tells me that he wants to talk about some serious things. I get prepared then when he comes home or the time comes when he said we would talk he says things like. I don't feel like talking now or nevermind. I think they do it to get a reaction out of us.

How was your day at the pool yesterday? I went to my SIL's and spent the day. I had a ok time. But it was hard getting my husband off my mind. Today I just lounged around been very moody with my three year old though. I am so stressed and angry at my husband I have to keep reminding myself not to take it out on my son.

Kloe,

My dear, you have just given your WS some cake. He ate and left. His request for a talk was like bringing the empty plate in hopes you'd offer him some cake.

Even tho' you are pregnant, don't let him cake walk all over you. He promised to talk and didn't, then next time, don't be there when he comes over. Let him come over but don't commit to hanging around. Don't fix him lunch and you'd better think about plan B otherwise his current conduct maybe acceptable to him and he thinks you like him this way also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Kids try to play the same game but parents tend to see it easier. Or at least parents should see it easier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

I don't always hang out when he comes over. He stopped by on Friday afternoon but I already had plans so when it was time to leave I left him at the house with the animals while I went to dinner. Today he didn't have to use the excuse of talking to me to come over, he had to come over to do the lawn and the cat box anyway.

Maybe I just don't understand Plan B. I thought it was to end an A, but if the A is already over how does Plan B help?

I don't know if he didn't talk because he is afraid, either of hurting me or of me rejecting him. I just don't know.

I just wish I could be stronger and not so scared. He brought up that he bought season tickets to the Washington Redskins (we are both HUGE fans, going to a football games was our second date), he asked if I wanted any. I didn't know if he was asking me to go with him or just to take his tickets and go with a friend. But stupid me instead of asking was too afraid and let the subject drop.

Hi Kloe! My weekend adventures ended today, so here I am on my porch again.

I'm trying to imagine how you are when you see your H, but I can't tell. Are you upbeat, or are you tired and down?

Have you done anything to change your life that, when he comes over and sees evidence of it, is a surprise to him?

GC

I try to be upbeat and have a good time while we are together. I have made changes in my life and he has said before that he has noticed them. I was a little nervous today because he said he wanted to talk today, something he hasn't done for months. I figured he either wanted to ask for a D or wanted to move back in. Kind of hard to not be distracted when that's going through your head.

Also, he gave me a book today that he just read, "The five people you met in Heaven." I've been wanting to read it but had never mentioned this to him before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>kloe72: I don't always hang out when he comes over. He stopped by on Friday afternoon but I already had plans so when it was time to leave I left him at the house with the animals while I went to dinner. Today he didn't have to use the excuse of talking to me to come over, he had to come over to do the lawn and the cat box anyway.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Good. Have a back up plan when he does these surprise visit. Plan B will help eliminate that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>kloe72: Maybe I just don't understand Plan B. I thought it was to end an A, but if the A is already over how does Plan B help?.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Please read the following excerpt from Dr Harley's basic concepts section " to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B."

U see plan B is more than waiting for the A to end. It is to prepare a way for return. As long as the WS is allowed to believe that the BS will take him/her back with minimal changes, then where is the motivation to end the A in all areas? Physical, emotional, mental, etc. As a BS don't you want the A t/b completely over? Why would you settle for no PA but lots of EA?


[/QB][/QUOTE]kloe72: I don't know if he didn't talk because he is afraid, either of hurting me or of me rejecting him. I just don't know..[/QB][/QUOTE]

Orchid: U don't know and it don't matter. Let him be afraid. The fear of the unknown may do him some good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>kloe72: I just wish I could be stronger and not so scared. He brought up that he bought season tickets to the Washington Redskins (we are both HUGE fans, going to a football games was our second date), he asked if I wanted any. I didn't know if he was asking me to go with him or just to take his tickets and go with a friend. But stupid me instead of asking was too afraid and let the subject drop. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: U R getting stronger. Many BS don't see this in their progress. As for the game, let him get you the tickets and take a friend. U R not obligated to go with him. Remember he is giving them to you in a vague way. Accept in the same. It may do him some good to see you have some fun surrounded by those who care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ September 05, 2004, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Kloe, I agree with O about the tickets. If you're going to accept things from him, I think you should not attach conditions to them or try to raise the stakes.

Whether you should accept his generosity, which is I reckon a transparent effort to ease his guilt, is another question.

Remember that one of the benefits of a good plan A is the way it throws the WS off balance.

Maybe you should find WH a nice book, similar to what he gave you, that sends a gentle message about love and courage and all that good stuff. If my WW did something similar I'd ask her if the book gave her anything to think about.

GC

Kloe, if your H says he wants to talk to you when he comes over, and then proceeds to ignore that elephant in the living room with you, I think you should bring it up. "H, I love just haning out with you, but I have to tell you I am experiencing some anxiety right now, because I was under the impression you wanted to talk about something, in person, and right now that is all I can think of."

In fact, I think I said that exact thing to my H near the end of our separation. AND, I think it is so funny that you noticed this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He even slipped in an e-mail and instead of saying he would stop by "the house" he said "home". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H made these slips all the time. When we first started going to MC, he called it "group" therapy - he didn't want to imply that he wanted to be married to me. Just wanted to make the D go easier. But, every once in a while, he would slip up and call it "couple's" counseling. It's so funny now, we laugh about it. I say, "GROUP counseling? Like, with a lot of other people?" And H says, "I know. I can't believe I said that."

Another "slip" I noticed was that even when H took off his wedding ring, he never removed my picture from the front of his wallet. I'll never forget the day I noticed that. He opened his wallet to give our MC, er, "group" councelor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , a card, and there I was, front and center, like I have been for 15 years. I thought, "If he really didn't love me anymore, wouldn't he have removed me from his WALLET? He sees me each time he opens and closes the thing!"

And after we got back together, I told him about all these things I noticed. It was as if he was so lost in the fog, he couldn't let me know directly what he felt (because he really didn't know himself), but he left me clues. And since he's come home, he has expressed so much gratitude that I looked for and believed in those clues, and kept the faith of our love, and our M alive - when he was unable to do that himself.

So, I think you should stay in Plan A. Personally, since he is not seeing OW, I believe if you make yourself a safe place for him, you will see him more and more. Do the things ark suggested on your other thread. Especially the SF stuff - sexy maternity clothes, looking and smelling great. Being the man, if he isn't getting it from OW, he'll be around soon enough. That was a helping factor with ending our separation. OW dumped him 12/31/03, so by the beginning of April, he was ready!

And if he is over for a R talk, by his own planning, bring it up if he doesn't. No matter what he says, stay calm and smile and nod. If it is hurtful, it is probably the last of his fog-speak coming out. Show him you are not afraid of it. You are not afraid of words, Kloe. He has NOT D'd you. My H told me so many times that is what he wanted, and I reacted to his words so many times. Finally, after the last time, Believer said "SS! His actions have shown NOTHING in that direction. Just words. His actions have been coming over more, going to lunch, making my website, fixing stuff around the house."

I sense that part of your hesitancy of bringing up R talk when it is appropriate (because HE asked for it) is fear of what he will say to you. Don't live in that fear. You have faced it now each day for several months. AND, what if HE is afraid, too? You are further down the path of self-discovery, awareness, because of your strength, courage, and you found MB. You might have to take the wheel of this recovery right now, and lead by example. I sure did. And since my H has come home, he has been my rock.

So, Reader's Digest version: Plan A your butt off, 180 him like ark says, and broach R talk.

You are doing so well.

SS

WH is off from work all this week. He asked if he could come over this morning to use the internet connection for a fantasy football draft. That was at 9 am. He was still here when I got home from work at 6 pm; however, he left shortly after that. I guess hanging out here is more comfortable then his Mom's house. I wanted to bring up the R talk but the opportunity didn't really present itself. He was very quiet and didn't really seem to want to talk about anything. He's picking up the crib and dresser for the babies room tomorrow.

Hmmmm. Very interesting. I am glad you are going to bring up the R talk soon. I think he is getting ready for that, as well.

Remember, you might hear stuff you don't want to hear when you or he brings it up. In fact, I would bet on it. It just seems that they have all kinds of fog trapped inside of them, and it rarely just dissipates. It usually has to come out, then gets vaporized in the light of day, with some time.

So, when you do ask, or when he broaches the subject, remember that words are just words. OK? If words were = to actions, I'd have been D'd about 6-7 times over by now. There is a HUGE difference between words and actions, when A's are involved.

Stay strong, be brave, and keep posting. I was so curious as to what happened this weekend over there. Have you heard anything from SadMarylandLady? I worry about her, too.

SS

I was thinking about sending him an e-mail tomorrow, something like: "You mentioned last week that you wanted to talk in person. If you still do let you know and maybe we could do it over dinner one night this week." I get the feeling he is nervous about something, I just don't know if it is something good or bad.

I bumped SML's post last night but haven't heard from her since then which would have been when her WH came home. I'm hoping she's doing well, I'll bump her again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get the feeling he is nervous about something, I just don't know if it is something good or bad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the feeling I get, as well. Which is why I am telling you to brace yourself for the "bad," and also realize that it is how he is feeling "at that moment." It's not necessarily set in stone - in fact, it would surprise me greatly if his feeligs did not change gradually as the lines of communication open up more and more.

H and I had to plow through a BUNCH of stuff/crap/$hit to get to the real issues. And I think we are fairly "normal" in our experience. Please try and not react to what he says. If it seems still out of character for him, continue to believe it is remnants of the fog clearing.

Thanks for bumping up SML. Hopefully she'll post soon.

SS

Well I sent the e-mail and he said we could talk on Saturday, we'll see what happens. Like I've said before I'll prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I won't let him leave without saying what is on his mind this time!

Kloe,
How are you feeling today? Have you thought about a baby name yet? My husband likes Aurora Grace but I am not sure if I like it or not. I was thinking more like Katelyn Grace or Emma Grace. He also likes the name Kloe. hehe..

I have been very tired lately. Everyone says I look pretty pale lately. I think it's because they took blood recently and said I am anemic. I keep forgetting to take the iron pill they gave me. Just been trying to eat more beef and eggs like they suggested. I don't care that much for either but as long as it helps. Have you had the glucose test yet? They said mine came out fine. Which was good.

Take care of yourself. Just wondering how your pregnancy is going.

SML - I'm doing pretty well, considering! I haven't been real tired or had any other problems. I've only gained about 6 lbs (after losing 19lbs initially in the first trimester) so I'm not too big yet; although, none of my clothes fit and finding materinity work clothes has proved to be challenging. I go for the glucose test in two weeks so hopefully that goes well. We are going to name the baby Madison (Maddy for short) Eileen (this was my grandmothers name, she passed away in January). WH is picking up the crib and dresser/changing table this week that my Mom bought. It will be fun to start to put the babies room together. I've got a ton of hand-me-down clothes from my SIL and my sister that I need to wash and sort. I can't wait for my shower in October, most of my relatives from out of town are coming so I am looking forward to seeing them. I'm just keeping busy and focusing on getting ready for the baby.

It sounds like you are getting stronger and doing what needs to be done. Keep doing what you are doing and you will get through this one way or another.