</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

****practice negotation techniques****

.... coz you're gonna need 'em.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...if you ever want to have a good marriage again.

-HD

K/Pep,

Can you have any sort of POJA with a fogbound WS still in contact with OP? K, I see your "don't try to tell me" part of your post. Maybe I need to go back and read up on the POJA and the one-sided part to better understand.

I just think that sending it was another level of exposure that is needed in this case, which probably late in coming anyway.

It seems to me that POJA is part of recovery and that Bob and WW aren't quite there yet. I agree with your points about POJA and negotiation, but don't know that it's possible for them yet. I'd be interested in your clarification here.

Bob, I don't believe her threats about "it's all over and there's no chance of saving our M now." She's said it before and she's lashing out at you. Keep on, keepin' on. You're doing fine.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Nemo16 ]</small>

She IS too fog bound still to have POJA during her withdrawal of OM.

He called her to let her know the proof arrived. Ha! That is not NC! GF should know that!

She IS too fog bound still to have POJA during her withdrawal of OM.

He called her to let her know the proof arrived. Ha! That is not NC!

I don't think Bob was sure HOW WW found out...He just assumed OM called her...It may have been though the GF or WW may have called OM???

IMO, all this COULD have and SHOULD have waited until AFTER the OM's son's funeral.

What is a few more days compared to a lifetime?

It would have been more Christ-like, less of an LB, more humane and more sensitive of Bob to have waited until after the funeral...which I thought in the beginning Bob had said he would do...Wait.

Regardless what many may think...OM and OW (our wondering spouses) have feelings and hearts; even though they are side-tracted and headed the wrong way. (Hopefully they get BACK on the right track.)

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

K said:

If you both practice that, you see how it becomes "mutually enthusiastic".

Key word both. I'm not advocating the "she's-not-doing-it-so-neither-am-I" approach....but I know how difficult it was to be mutually enthusiastic about anything with my wife while she continued contact with OM.

I think at this point even though the affair has been exposed to the GF Bob did the right thing. This "proof" had been offered to the GF prior by Bob with a "if you ever want it I have it" kinda statement. Well now she wants it and Bob gave it.

Maybe the timing is bad for the OM, oh well bad things always happen at bad times.

In my mind, POJA isn't really an option. I know it is the MB way but isn't that for when the affair is over and Bob's wife isn't trying to contact OM anymore? If you can't negotiat the end of the affair how is the "exposure" going to be negotiated.

Never gain at your spouse's expense

What is Bob gaining?

OM's GF could have waited until after the funeral but she didn't and that was her call. Can't fault Bob for what she did even if he gave her the info.

God Bless,

Doug

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

Hasn't Barbara DeAngelis been married several times? I am thinking 6 but I'm not sure. I don't think she's someone to seek for advice. How can someone who has been married so many times and can't speak from the experience of a strong and committed marriage give anyone else advice? From reading that post, she obviously promotes the attitude to split and run verses MB who promotes working on the relationship. I think MB has the right idea...

dbl post
P.S. Bob, hope supper is waiting for you tonight when you get home!

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

RAG:

Maybe Bob should just shoot his W? Oops, that's probably illegal where Bob lives.

Maybe Bob should just sue the OM? Oops, affairs probably aren't illegal where Bob lives.

What 2 do? Sure, he could make ultimatums and throw her out. Much of what you 2uoted contains "truths." But there is a certain level of vindictiveness there as well. Don't you agree?

K's got the right idea. And I do believe that POJA is possible even with a WS deep in the fog. It may just be about simple things for now, like who picks up the kids or makes dinner 2night. But seizing the oppor2nity 2 hone your POJA skills is a good idea.

When a blatant "full-blown" A is going on right under your nose, it's a lot harder for the BS 2 think clearly and do the POJA. But this isn't one of those cases. And if Bob tossed his W 2 the curb, they wouldn't have much time for practicing, would they?

Not clear-cut. Bob must decide.

-ol' 2long

Originally posted by Nemo16:
K/Pep,

Can you have any sort of POJA with a fogbound WS still in contact with OP?

Well.... I have been thinking about this for awhile, coz it came up earlier on a post by K ...

When my boundary became ---> "I will not live with you unless you go to AA and stay there.".... that was my boundary. My bottom line.
H proposed various other "solutions" to his drinking .... and we did have a negotiating session, but my boundary did not move.

My H had the choice, AA or he could choose his freedom and live outside my firm boundary. This was not done behind his back. My H was given a choice, a voice. He was not treated as a child , but as an adult. He chose his action knowing what his alternative choice was.

I think K is right, and I have been giving wrong advice on some of these areas. (thanks K, for the reminder)

Pep

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Bob,
My sturdy English friend, your W telling you not to send evidence to GF would seem to make you an accomplice in the affair!!

Looking at it that way, what choice did you have?

Hope your TV interviews go well. What channel might we see you on in SoCal?
k

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my mind, POJA isn't really an option. I know it is the MB way but isn't that for when the affair is over and Bob's wife isn't trying to contact OM anymore? If you can't negotiat the end of the affair how is the "exposure" going to be negotiated.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the idea is that Bob should have gone to her first and tried to negotiate the issue. Of course she probably wouldn't have "agreed" to it, but there's a larger picture here that needs to be addressed. The POJA all revolves around respectful negotiations. He needs to set the example by using it himself whenever he can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Never gain at your spouse's expense

What is Bob gaining?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob gained the satisfaction of exposure without letting his wife know he was doing that (ie - he did it behind her back). He let her find out through other means, not through himself, and then he was able to say, "gotcha!" This makes him guilty not only of not trying to use the POJA in his marriage, but also for not following the concept of "honesty."

If he can't follow it himself, how can he ever expect his wife to? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

-HD

Your W's anger is her GUILT pouring out. She wanted to keep it a secret, is ashamed to know that someone else read those words.

She is angry at you right now, but soon...hopefully...she will begin to be angry with the person who caused all this...herself.

How can she be angry with you??? (Hope this isn't too US business an allegory) but it's a bit like you getting mad at the credit bureau for an accurate credit rating that keeps you from getting a house...it's YOUR fault, they are simply the messenger.

This anger is natural, normal, and displaced. Hang on tight, no apologies, take what you can, get away when you need to. There will come a time that you can point out to her that this was the honest thing to do, and you did it to SAVE your M by destroying the A.

BT...we were down that road with the other thread. These are decisions *Bob* needs to be making for *Bob* and *Bob's* family. I'm still not sure why you don't get it. Giving him a "I still don't know why you did it" is *NOT* helping the matter anyway you look at it. *Bob* made his decision, based on the facts and possibilities. Do *you* have to sleep in *Bob's* bed that was made for him? Regardless if you agree or disagree, posts like that do *NOT* help.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HurtingDeeply:
<strong> I think the idea is that Bob should have gone to her first and tried to negotiate the issue. Of course she probably wouldn't have "agreed" to it, but there's a larger picture here that needs to be addressed. The POJA all revolves around respectful negotiations. He needs to set the example by using it himself whenever he can.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Bob said that she said, "I told you not to but you did." So it seems as though there was some level of communication about it. I'll have to read back to see if there is any context posted.

Lots of gray area here, but I do believe this POJA discussion is a good one.

I still have trouble with this. Last night, my W was reminded, by something on TV, of her best friend ratting on her at work, and never so much as apologizing for doing so. They haven't spoken in over a YEAR.

Worse, I still don't know how 2 deal with this, but I intend 2 ask Penny her thoughts. I want 2 be supportive of my W in her recovery, but I don't entirely disagree with what her friend did (though it certainly would have been better if she'd at least told her she was going 2 do it - it 2k a 2ple months for the "rumor" 2 get back 2 my W).

This is important 2 me (and relevant 2 Bob's actions), because like Bob's W, my W has threatened that "it'll be OVER if you contact RM again". I don't look forward 2 that kind of anger again, not just because I'm "chicken", but because when MY W gets that angry, she withdraws from EVERYBODY back in2 her shell for LONG, LONG periods of time.

I believe in communication. I'm cruddy at it, though, and want 2 improve. I think I can learn a lot from what Bob is doing now.

thanks, bob!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-ol' 2long

HurtingDeeply,

Not trying to split hairs here and don't want to threadjack too much.......

I think the idea is that Bob should have gone to her first and tried to negotiate the issue. Of course she probably wouldn't have "agreed" to it, but there's a larger picture here that needs to be addressed. The POJA all revolves around respectful negotiations. He needs to set the example by using it himself whenever he can.

Maybe I can live with he could broached the subject with her first.....maybe.

Does the POJA approach hold true with the initial exposure? or the installation of spy-ware, using a voice activated recorder, looking at the spouses email or "obtaining" their cell phone records.

NO. Normally that advice isn't given here. Bob was stuck in a rough place. He did the best thing, in his mind, for his marriage, his wife and himself.

Bob gained the satisfaction of exposure without letting his wife know he was doing that (ie - he did it behind her back). He let her find out through other means, not through himself, and then he was able to say, "gotcha!" This makes him guilty not only of not trying to use the POJA in his marriage, but also for not following the concept of "honesty."

here is how I see it.....
He didn't let her find out....She found out because there was contact. More than likely it was the OM who told Bob's wife.
OM found out after his GF confronted him with the proof that she got from Bob. The proof that made deniability a little more difficult for him.
The GF decided that he needed to be confronted about the affair prior to the funeral. He gets pissed, calls Bob's wife and blames Bob for showing her the proof.
She in-turn gets pissed at Bob and says "it's over (marriage)."

Typical flow of events read here almost everyday if you ask me. I don't fault Bob for not POJA'ing because IMO it wasn't the time or place for it.

Bob,

You do what you can, when you can and as best as you can.

God Bless

Doug

Well Bob

just because someone has asked you to keep a lie doesn't mean you should. Not in something like this.
Anyway it is done and most experienced people here say thats good, time will tell.

But in the end, nothing you do or say Bob will 'make' her stay or go. Your WW will decide that one day regardless of what you have done in this regards.

Keep to your plan, make decisions as you see them as right, use the experienced posters for advice as you will, not much more we can do.

But Bob, its darn hard isn't it.

Actually, Bob's wife asked him what he was faxing when he was in the process or had just faxed the cell phone records. He answered honestly...only she did not believe him at the time.

I do like the idea of at least trying to practice POJA with the WS even if they aren't really ready for reconciliation...but he would of had to go ahead an fully expose anyway...because it was the right thing to do.

Over 90% of the people here told him to give GF info when she asked for it, EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE, FOLLOW HARLEY'S ADVICE TO END FANTASY LAND! Now people are coming on to say...."BAD BOB" YOU SHOULD HAVE WAITED" "YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS OR THAT" "THE TIMING WASN'T RIGHT", "YOU DIDN'T HAVE FULL PARTICIPATION WITH YOUR WS"! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Newbies on this forum are already 2nd guessing themselves when it comes to exposure because they are afraid to follow through and deal with an even angrier WS. Threads like this one will certainly make BS not take action to end the fantasy and instead may enable it!
It's done, get over it, move on, NEXT!
Bob - you did what should have been done from day 1! You can't reason with a WS in fogland so don't try. Continue on your path, nothing has been done that isn't WS textbook so relax if you can and see the bigger picture!