cth:

"The only other thing I think I have left to do is require that it be a legal seperation, not a volentary one.

If she wants to keep seeing the OM, than she cannot be my wife."

This is not separation, this is DV. Separation is a state of marriage. Separation while living with the OM is "open marriage."

I don't think you should pay either. I think it would be eye-opening if she has 2 live in a dive and try 2 make it "nice" for the kids.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not want to make her mad because I feel that would hurt our chances of getting back together. I do not want a huge custody battle for fear of losing or hating my WW. I do not want to give her anything at all!!!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you are going to have to decide which you want most, I guess.

You don't want to make her mad. OK, then pay her for watching your kids, let her move in with OM and sleep with him each night, with your kids there sometimes, then give her any other money the court sees fit to give her. If you don't want to make her mad, you will have to support her A and her cake-eating. Of course, in the same sentence you said you don't want to hurt your chances of getting back together. Hmmmm. Helping to end her fantasy world will be very painful for her, and she will lash out at you. Enabling her fantasy world will make it last that much longer, lessening your chances at future reconciliation.

You don't want a huge custody battle. OK. Are you prepared to have your kids spend the night at her place, with the OM there, that you are paying for??? You can hardly stand that they went apartment shopping together with your kids. How will you feel with them going in their room in the morning to wake them up to make breakfast, or whatever, and your kids see Mom and OM in bed together, nekked??? Are you thinking about these things? THAT is what will make you HATE your WW, IMO. Your children are what could bring her home, but not if you give them to her on HER terms. Also, deep down, if you do everything she wants, out of FEAR, she will lose respect for you.

And finally, you don't want to give her anything at all. Hmmmmm. Then YOU choose what you are willing to give, and come from a position of power, not fear.

You are getting very good advice from lots of great posters here, CTH. Not ONE of them has thought you were going down a good path.

Let's hit this from another angle. What would you have to do differently than you are right now, to make things go the way YOU want them to go. AND, what experience does your MC/mediator have with A's? The only question of mine you answered from my last post was what kind of donuts you are making. Why are you so resistant to this idea?

If you continue to rescue your WW from the consequences of her decisions (ie, living in a dive, seeing her kids when it's convenient for HER), you are enabling her A.

SS

I realize I am avoiding conflict. I just do not want to back myself into a corner. If anybody thinks that I am going to be able to get away with having her leave and not have to give her any money, I want them to represent me in court. It is not gonna happen that way, my lawyer and my MC told me the same thing, I am going to have to pay.

Perhaps I am not making my point. This is want I want in no particuar order:

My kids to be raised by loving parents who are happily married
My wife to love me and only me
I want to be happy
I want to not go broke

Even if the courts give me full custody, I still am going to have to pay her. In our marriage, I was the one who made the money, not her. Her job was some side $$ and the food bill. SHE IS GOING TO GET MONEY FROM ME.

I want to keep my relationship with her civil for the sake of the kids. If she is willing to leave and take care of the kids, I am OK with that.

Spider, you did put it into perspective with your sceniaro. I do not want to give her anything, are you all suggesting that I tell her she has to leave and if she wants any money from me, to go see a lwayer and sue me?

Please let me know what you think.

I realize I am avoiding conflict. I just do not want to back myself into a corner. If anybody thinks that I am going to be able to get away with having her leave and not have to give her any money, I want them to represent me in court. It is not gonna happen that way, my lawyer and my MC told me the same thing, I am going to have to pay.

Perhaps I am not making my point. This is want I want in no particuar order:

My kids to be raised by loving parents who are happily married
My wife to love me and only me
I want to be happy
I want to not go broke

Even if the courts give me full custody, I still am going to have to pay her. In our marriage, I was the one who made the money, not her. Her job was some side $$ and the food bill. SHE IS GOING TO GET MONEY FROM ME.

I want to keep my relationship with her civil for the sake of the kids. If she is willing to leave and help take care of the kids, I am OK with that.

Spider, you did put it into perspective with your sceniaro. I do not want to give her anything, are you all suggesting that I tell her she has to leave and if she wants any money from me, to go see a lwayer and sue me?

Please let me know what you think.

canthishelp,
I was just reading your post. I am so sorry you are going through this. I know how you feel when you say you were proud to introduce her as your wife and now you have to tell people you are divorcing! I can totally relate. I was always so very proud of my marriage and my H. Everybody always thought we had such a wonderful family. It hurts me so deeply that it is being torn apart never to be repaired again. I just don't know how I will survive this.
You will be in my prayers and I wish you the best of luck! You keep holding your head up high and know that one day you will find happiness once again.

CTH

I am by no means a lawyer, but I believe that if she chooses to leave the marriage by having an A and already has an OM when you go into court they more than likely will not give her alimony. She is fully capable of getting a job and they will probably tell her that. You do have to pay more for two kids, but that is all you will have to pay her in custody court. For the other you will have to go to a separate court.

As far as backing yourself into a corner let me tell you a little something. First of all I was just like you. I was scared. I had no job, two kids and a disability. I have had two back surgeries. I didn't know which way was up or down. I took my FWH to court for custody and I was scared it was going to ruin everything. You can ask spider, she knows. But it is my kids. And they are your kids. If she isn't going to be responsible enough to take their lives into consideration than you need to. Too many times men sit back and let the women run the show. Affairs leave your brains hanging out. She can't think for herself right now, never mind those kids. My H used to come home every night and tuck his boy in. Then all of a sudden he was going 7 days without even seeing him. Are you getting my point? FOG! A's leave the brain foggy. Take care of the kids. She can't do it properly right now. She has an addiction, and they are the last things on her mind. Don't give it. Don't pay her to watch her own kids. That is insane. I can't even believe you are thinking about it. You are not ruining your chances of recovery by taking her to custody court. You are taking care of your own kids and making sure their lives are in order. My H came home after we did the court thing and everything. You need to make it harder for her to be with OM instead of easier. You are feeding into her hands. A court order is not that big of a deal, they make an amount and they deduct it from your pay. It is that simple. If she has an OM he can pay her way the rest of the time, or she can fend for herself. You would be nuts to help enable her A. And personally I think if a dive is what she wants to live in then you definately should try to get the kids. You can do whatever you want, but this is just my opinion and my story. My kids have always come first, H second. He knows that and so does everyone else here on MB. Kids really do suffer terribly through these A's. It is sad and just thinking about what my DS and DD went through makes me cry <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . I am praying for you.

HINY

cth:

"I realize I am avoiding conflict."

Believe me. I think we ALL deal with conflict avoidance. It ain't fun.

"I just do not want to back myself into a corner. If anybody thinks that I am going to be able to get away with having her leave and not have to give her any money, I want them to represent me in court."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding then. I suppose if you're FORCING her 2 leave, you might be expected 2 give her a place 2 go. I wouldn't do that. I'd "force" her 2 stay, meaning I'd not help her leave or continue her A financially, and let HER decide 2 leave on her own initiative (and money) if she so badly wants 2 continue her A without interference from you. It'll be hard as hell having her there any more, the way she's been behaving, and I DO NOT believe I could do that without some SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL COACHING (SH, JHC, or PT). But I can't believe that the courts would force you 2 pay for her apartment and stuff if you don't even want her 2 go.

"It is not gonna happen that way, my lawyer and my MC told me the same thing, I am going to have to pay."

And so, if you are forcing her out, why not file for DV at the same time? I would make sure that the MC and the lawyer put language in2 ANY "legal separation" agreement that prevents her having the kids while OM is around. THAT must be a requirement. Still, legal separation is marriage, so it would NOT be any more appropriate for her 2 have the A than it is now. It'd just be out of your face.

"This is want I want in no particuar order:

My kids to be raised by loving parents who are happily married"

Then work with the Harleys or Penny and follow the methods 2 a TEE. They work BEST in just these kinds of "black and white" sitches.

"My wife to love me and only me"

And you know you can't MAKE her do that. You can make YOURSELF lovable, though. And ultimately, being "better" at it than the OM will be a lead pipe cinch (and you can save the pipe 2 cave his head... oops, that's illegal!).

"I want to be happy"

And you are the only one that can make yourself happy.

"I want to not go broke"

Me 2. My financial sitch is so complicated, or at least it was until very recently, that I couldn't imagine plan B or DV without losing or selling everything we have 2gether. I chose not 2 plan B, but my W's A has not been anything like as active as your W's (RM lives 2 states away, and the A ended a year ago), primarily for financial reasons. But also I believe I am making a stand for my family and OUR fu2re, not just my M, by staying home and not forcing my W out.

In your sitch, I think it might be possible 2 do something like that, but it will be VERY PAINFUL with an active A going on at the time. If you think you can do that, then hunker down and plan A your beautox off. But get the right kind of help right now. It will be extremely difficult.

best,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am rapidly starting to hate my WW. I need to swallow my pride and do whatever I can do to get her out of my life as fast as I can before I hate her. She has become a terrible person and does not deserve anything that I can give her.

This morning (actually starting last night) I am past emotional detachment and into rage. After her vulger display in front of me and all our friends last Friday, I can no longer find a place in my heart for this person.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is when you go into Plan B...Plan B is to protect yourself from your WW's lifestyle right now! You can only choose to do what is best for you and your children right now...Please go into Plan B before you begin to hate her more!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am ashamed that I asked her to marry me, disgusted with myself for trusting her and mad as h3ll at her for what she is doing to the kids.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not the woman you married, CTH! She is gone! for now anyway! She is so fogged out, she cant even see straight! Plan B will help her find her way home to you!

Here is an update.

I have completelly screwed up plan A. Here is the list of events.

On Saturday, I had my brothers stag (an outdoor event that ended at 11:00pm) after a morning wedding. I left the house around 10:30am. My WW told me she was going to go grocery shopping, do some house work, and call it an early night.

Then, my in-laws call and offer to take the kids all day. My WW says OK. Then, she spends the day with the OM. They go looking at apartments, they go to "wing-stock" (We live near Buffalo, NY) and she calls me around 8:30pm to give me an update.

I loose it on the phone, asking her things like "how can you date another man while you are married" "You are being so selfish" "Do you have any idea how many people you are hurting?" "Do you care about your kids and the pain this is going to cause them?" I had to cool off, so I called her back and apologized. The converstation ended on a decent note.

I spent the night at a friends house.

I got home Sunday morning and we loafed all day. It was pretty miserable. She left on two occasions to "look at apartments". Then we went to a friends christining (SP?) party. That was not too bad. One of our friends can stomach being around my WW. And they all love our kids.

Monday was a nice example of how not to plan A. I cut the lawn. When I came in, she was talking to the OM. My WW quickly hung up. I asked how the OM was doing, I was told he was fine. I then remembered that she won tickets(VIP Box seats) to go see the Allman brothers band. I asked when she was leaving, she told me 1:00pm for a 4:00pm show. I blew it. I started again with the questions. "When did you start to think it was OK to date other man?" "How did you convince yourself that having sex with another man was OK to do in a marriage?" "Do me and the kids mean anything to you?" Well, she got up and left. When she came back 1/2 hour later, she was chilling with the kids. She told me she had to get ready. I told her I did not want her to primp herself for another man in our kids house. She said fine, told me she was not coming home tonight and packed her stuff and left.

That was 9 hours ago. Its 9:00pm. The kids have been asleep for 1/2 hour. I have the chain on the door and I hope she comes home in the AM so I can go to work in the morning.

I cannot deal with her having the affair in my face. I want the truth, and the truth is, she wants him not me. Fine, go to him and see how much better your life is. Send me a post card.

I think that I want her to leave so she can see what she is choosing. I hope plan B works. Since I screwed up plan A, I bet it will not. Crap.

I love when she tells me that she is not leaving me for him. So then I say, if that is the case, stop seeing him until we are seperated. She won't.

Our MC homework for the week is to divvy up the goods in the house. I get one TV, she gets one TV, I get the snow blower and lawn mower, she gets the washer, dryer, stove and fridge... What fun.

I just want to be happly married to my wife.

Oh well, no questions from me tonight, just venting and documenting. I would welcome any comments on how badly I screwed up plan A.

Down goes the coaster....

canthishelp, I am so sorry you are going through so much pain right now. It seems like you are just reacting and reacting, that you cannot find your center. Have you gone to the doctor for any meds yet? I know after I took Lexapro for a couple weeks, I felt much more self-contained.

As I was reading your posts to my H tonight, he thinks as I do - you are so far involved in the emotions, you cannot help yourself right now. I hope you can pull yourself together soon and do what needs to be done for your kids, if you cannot do it for yourself right now.

I think you need to take HINY's advice. You need to go to custody court, get an order securing OM from being around your kids - ASAP. Period, the end. If I were you, that is what I would do. You did read that HINY thought if you made the separation legal BEFORE the custody hearing, you might not be able to keep OM from being around your kids . . . didn't you?

Go get that done! And do not pay her for daycare. I understand you will have to pay no matter what. BUT, HOW MUCH is what is not settled. HINY said 17%. What if you agree to pay her daycare, and the court says: pay 17% MORE. That is what we are all thinking. If you voluntarily, being a "good guy," offer to pay that, the courts do not necessarily have to take that into consideration. Do you understand the line of thinking on that???

I hope you can begin moving in a forward direction soon, CTH. You are chasing your tail right now. You are totally enrolled in her chaos.

Make an appointment for custody court tomorrow. Get her an apartment so you don't lose all your LB$ for her. AND, find daycare for your kids during the day. She can take them for FREE if she doesn't want them with someone else during the day - but that is a decision she needs to make, and have consequences for.

SS

SS, thanks again for your advice.

I now see what you are saying about the daycare and paying her. If I get stuck doing both, I would feel much worse.

Just so you know, it is 25% of the total income that has to be allocated to child care (with two kids), not 17%. I would much rather not have to give her anything, but I am quite scared. Scared she will fight me and some how win.

As a man and having talked to 2 other men that tried for custody and lost, it made it much worse by losing the battle. Then, the WW got custody and costodial guardianship. I do not think I can handle that. I am going to talk to my lawyer today to get a better understanding of what my options and chances are.

You mentioned that it seems as if I am cought up in her madness. I actually felt quite sane yesterday. It made a lot of sense to me that she should not be able to go out on dates with other man and that I should make it as hard as I can for her to do so. Even though I felt crappy for the rest of the day. But I feel crappy the rest of all my days now.

At least my kids still love me.

I did start the anti-d's, it'll be three weeks Thursday. I am not sure if I feel anything yet. I thought I did at first, but not so much now. I did get some good REM sleep last night, although I feel quite tired now.

Oh well, off to work. I will try to update later.

You are right it is 25% with two kids. I thought you only had one. You will get yourself straightened around soon enough. It takes a while for all the pain to start fading where you can get yourself into a decent plan.

As far as waiting I wouldn't wait to do anything. You have just as good a chance to get physical placement as your W does. In fact I think that you have a better chance. All you have to tell them is that you think that moving them right now would be damaging that they need to stay in their home in their beds. Also mention the OM and that you don't think that person would be helping them at this time, as neither would moving. You really have to want to fight the fight. Get busy, document everything. Dont let one little thing go by.

HINY

cth, I am not meaning to kick you while you are down. I have so much compassion and sympathy for you. I was where you are just 8 short months ago. I can tell you it does get better with time. I promise you that. One way or the other, your level of pain will go down, and you will hurt less and less.

And I took GREAT comfort in the fact that my kids still loved me. That is a great place to find your center right now. Play games with them, roll on the floor and do tickle-torture. Bake cookies or cinnamon rolls on the weekends. Let them help you with dinner. Lose yourself and your pain in them! They are the product of the union that YOU are still fighting for. They represent everything good about you and your WW.

I understand talking to others can be discouraging. However, talking to others can also be inspiring! Redhat got custody of his kids, I believe WAT did also. It is all about intention, determination, NOT letting your emotions run you around. YOU need to be calm, cool, and collected. Stop lecturing your WW on her "dating." She cannot hear you! Let YOUR actions speak louder than your words.

Talk to your lawyer today. Make a custody hearing today. Based on that information, set a date for your WW to get out in her new apartment.

My FWH, for the first 2 1/2 months of our separation, STILL believed he had had his PA with HW because it was "right." He totally felt that he loved her, so "making love" to her was the next logical step. He moved out because it was the "right thing" to do. I said, "I think staying and working on our M would have been the right thing to do!" And he agrees, NOW. Then, his thinking was warped. He thought since he had feelings for HW, it wasn't "right" to stay with me. And his feelings for HW must be "real," because otherwise he wouldn't have done so many hurtful things to me.

That is what is meant by the FOG. Your WW right now feels totally, 100% justified for having her A - even right in front of you and her kids! My H had SF with HW in my bedroom, while all the boys (hers and ours) were in our other room playing computer games! Before and after a Scout trip, in which H is the Assistant Scout Master and HW's son was his Patrol Leader! SICK! SICK! SICK! And H didn't realize how sick and twisted that was until March, and he did it in the middle of December.

Bottom line, you can lecture to your WW until the cows come home. She's not going to get it until it has run its course and her head clears. You and your kids need to hunker down and weather the storm. You might have to be forceful in your quest for custody. DO IT! Even more than her needing to see real consequences for her teen-ager behavior, your kids need protection from her right now.

My H just recently understood why I wanted my boys taken out of that Scout troop while HW was still going to the meetings and campouts. DUH! My boys knew that H "loved" her, and that is why he left our home, why their entire world was turned upside-down. Yet they would both pretend nothing happened. AND, her son was very mean to my oldest son. I felt it was just insulting. And just recently, like in the past couple weeks, 8 months later, does H see the true scope of the hurt.

Remember, you are not racing - this is not a sprint. This is a marathon. You need to gather your strength, get a support system of friends going over there. Once the A dies its natuaral death, you need to have reserves of energy for the recovery process.

Hang in there. Call your lawyer asap. Talk about custody court. Give us an update.

SS

I just put a call into my lawyer. I hope to hear from him soon. I will let you know the story later tonight.

cth, I hope everything is going well for you over there today. I wish we could all meet, like be transported to neutral space, and give each other hugs. So, in place of Star Trek being real, {{{{{{{{{{CTH}}}}}}}}}}

Have you asked your doc about anti-anxiety meds? When I went to my doc, I took the depression and the anxiety tests (the Q & A tests). The depression was slight, but the anxiety was off the charts!!! The only two symptoms I didn't have in an extreme way were vomiting and fainting.

However, I did have a terrifying experience in Barnes and Noble. It was during my rapid weight-loss time, in the beginning, before the meds. I stood up from squatting at the bottom shelf (in the relationship section of the store), and darn-near fainted. And all I could think of as I was gripping the shelf, trying to see past the HUGE black circle in front of my eyes, was how embarassing - how embarrassing to pass out, in the book store, with my arms full of AFFAIR books! Good grief!!! That's when I realized all I'd had to eat was a can of tomato soup, 2 days before. Ugh.

Anyway, Lexapro has an anti-anxiety side-effect. The doc also gave me anti-anxiety meds to take before the Lexapro kicked in, thank goodness. Within 2 weeks I was eating again, sleeping better, and in a much better place. AND, when you're not getting any SF, the sexual side-effects are very helpful, if I may be so bold to say so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hang tough, cth. You are doing great. Perhaps call out some BH's out there with custody questions if you need some encouragement. That's what I'd do. I bet some of these guys have some tricks up their sleeves they'd love to share with you.

I am waiting for the update!

SS

Well, my lawyer never called me back. I will try him in the AM. He is a family friend and has been advising me w/out charging, so I am waiting to talk to him Wednesday.

I am on anti-D. They have not done much yet, but I think that taking them in the morning is helping. I actually slept OK last night and had dreams. I had forgotten that I stopped having them a few weeks ago. And yes, I am anxiously awaiting the SF side-affect to kick in. I am not sure how it is for some people, but I am ready to explode in more ways then one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I am going to figure out what child support would be and suggest that we try for a 50/50 split. I will keep the kids 3 work days, she can try for two and we can split the weekends somehow.

I really want to avoid selling the house for as long as I can. I do not think I will be able to keep it for very long though.

I just told my next door neighbor the story, she floored me by telling me 1) she thought that was going on and 2) her husband was a WH and they were seperated for 4 years. There 19th wedding anniversiry is today. Its a whacky world.

I am gonna work on the finances now and see what we can do.

I will update how it went with WW in the AM and again when I talk to the lawyer.

That all sounds great, cth. Isn't it a crazy world? The more people I shared my story with, the more I realized how bad infidelity is in our society. Almost everyone I shared with had been touched by infidelity, directly or indirectly. I found great comfort in stories like your neighbor's, where after the dust settled and the chaos stopped, they were able to find each other again.

It could seem impossible to you right now that everything can work out - but it CAN. Don't lose your hope of that happening. I don't mean go into everything you do during this stressful time thinking it is final. BUT, it is important to 1)stick up for yourself and 2)stick up for the kids' best interests.

You can be level-headed and still require your WW to be responsible for her own behavior. Have you ever read "Tough Love" by Dobson? It is a very good read, and makes excellent points. Doesn't follow MB precisely, but you will recognize similar concepts. Maybe check it out from the library next time you take your kids there. The library is a fun, free place to hang out with kids.

My H and I are STILL paying our way out of everything that happened during the A. Didn't help that H had the mental breakdown, on 12/31! The last day of the year last year! So none of that was counted towards this year's deductable! And we have used a LOT of medical coverage - IC, MC, anti-D's, etc. Plus we have our own insurance, so our rates and our plans SUCK anyway.

BUT, using POJA and Radical Honesty, we have agreed upon a plan to speed up our debt recovery, and we are executing that plan. It has actually brought us closer, working together, being kind-of "scrappy" like we had to do when we were younger and H was a private in the Army and we had 2 babies (12 months, 12 days apart).

Do what needs to be done each day. Try not to look too far ahead, don't look behind right now. There will be time for that later. Focus on each thing you need to do each day. Make a list of things to do each day, and include giving your kids hugs and playing a game with them each day.

Your WW is following a tragic script, and it just needs to run its course. Some day, she will realize what you have withstood for her, for your kids, to save your family. Don't expect that now, though.

Keep us posted about the lawyer. That is really nice of your friend to do that for you. You have many blessings in this.

SS

What's going ooonnnn?? Did I offend???

If so, apologies to you. That was not my intention. I know I was smacking you around with some 2x4's, which is not normally my style. Usually, if I have to get "pushy," I resort to mild cyber-slapping.

However, I felt urgency in your case. Don't know why.

So, do you have an update? Did you speak to your friend? I read about your 1800 sq ft home on your other post. It sounds wonderful on the 1/2 acre. Another thought - could you possibly go to one of the free credit counseling places, explain your circumstances, and possibly get some of your creditors to accept less monthly payments for a few months?

My friend is in debt recovery, and that is what she did. She ended up saving herself about $300 per month. Just thinking out loud, er, typing my thinking, or whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS