WW just asked me about the CD and I told her. She was absolutely LIVID. I reverse babbled a bit and explained how disrespectful I thought it was to leave flagrant triggers of the affair around.

After a LOT of fog she said something which gave me heart " DO NOT get rid of those things ! I HAVE GOT TO WANT to get rid of those things ! "

After mor vitriol I asked "Can you tell me why you're here, babe?" She said " I DON'T KNOW !!!"

" No really, on D-day you said you wanted to work on our M, can you tell me how you have done that since then?"

"Well, I'm still here aren't I ???"

Then she had to leave for KARATE !!!!!!

A shame that a day of peace went a bit unpleasant, but I think useful points made through the fog without LBing.

We may talk later when she returns from Karate. I hope to explain that I care enough to move mountains for her if she wants to quit the Affair NC and work on our M, but that I do not have strength to expend if she does not want me to.

Won't be nice, but necessary I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask her, should she become defiant and combative, "does God approve of adultery?" She need not answer. She need not do an "about face." But she needs to be confronted with the truth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Debbra - I assume that this is the part that you disagreed with in my previous post.

Bob is doing a very good job on his own, and suggestions are made for him to evaluate in the total circumstance that only he knows. Understand that the "modifier" in my statement was if she became DEFIANT and COMBATIVE.

One of the "problems" we all face as Christians is to confront sin, in a loving manner. I am not suggesting that he SHOUT such a question. It would be very much more appropriate if asked calmly and simply in response to a vitriolic attack.

Consider the implication: "I know you are angry with me, but you are also angry with God." Sin such as adultery is certainly a sin against the spouse, but it is first and always a sin against God. Bob's wife accepted Christ some time ago from what he has written. Therefore, it is his responsibility to point out to her (in fulfillment of his God-given role as "spiritual head of the household") with gentleness and love, whether she chooses to listen or not, that God loves her and is standing ready to forgive her, but will not do so as long as she is continuing to sin and not be repentant.

I KNOW it can be uncomfortable. But our "comfort" is not the primary issue. Standing on God's word in humble obedience to God's commands is what is at issue. Let's face it, if both husband and wife were being humbly obedient to God and living in an attitude of servanthood toward one another, none of us would be here and adultery would not be an issue. It's when we "go our own way" and ignore or relegate God to the "back burner," to only "pull God out" when things are going well, that we can get into serious trouble.

Also, Bob is correct that there is a time for calm and no "relationship talk." We can all only take so much of it and then need a "break" to allow some processing. I'd say that her reaction to the CD issue was expected and that Bob handled in a very good way. Her request was also very good and very reasonable. She KNOWS that Bob doesn't want that stuff around and he KNOWS that it would best if she was the one to get rid of it. So now it's "wait and see" time. Another step in the process. She will very likely get rid of the things as she unentangles herself from the affair and begins to "reconnect" with Bob.

I remember well the day when my wife committed to recovery and one of the first things she did was to give me all of her "affair related" CD's to throw away. She wanted me to get rid of them and scattered all over parts of North Carolina are "frisbee" CD's that sailed beautifully out of my car window (yes, I know it was littering). But it sure felt good to see those things "sailing away!"

I burned several CD's for my wife that expressed my love for her. She plays many of them, and one in particular, regularly as she drives around for her work. The idea was twofold, to let her know how I felt and what I hoped for in our relationship, and a way to not only STOP a "bad habit", but to replace with it a positive habit. The "title" of the CD's was the same each time, only the Volume number changed from Volume 1 to Volume 2 to Volume 3, etc. The title of each CD was: "*** & *** Lover's Forever.

So, Debbra, I don't disagree with your "disagreement." I actually agree. But I also reserve the right, as we all do, to stand on God's word in gentle reproach when it is necessary and appropriate.

Bob, one final thought for now. I suspect that your wife is more of an "action" person than an introspective, "talk about my feelings" sort of person. She is "acting" by being there. Do give her the time to sort through the mess. Right now, "being there" is probably about all she can handle emotionally, so continue to be patient.

God bless.

FH, Debbra thanks again.

WW and I will certainly have a relationship discussion in a few minutes when she returns from Karate. I will limit my statements to saying that I am willing to expend care and effort only while my WW is too, and that so far I have had diffulty identifying the commitment. No LBs but I need to get that statement out there. Remember mt WW doesn't know she is conforming to the template of all affairs....

I will mention NC again too. I hope not to LB and have been praying today that God runs my mouth, brain and heart. Lets see how we get on. I will not confront, its not time for that. I pray she does not become vicious again.

Bob

Hi there. I've been following your story and feel your pain and heartache. So sorry, it it just so awful, isn't it?

I feel compelled to post to you to give you a word of warning... This stuff is straight from my recent session with Steve Harley.

"Don't do ANYTHING to hurt him" (insert her). Period. Even if you want to throw rocks at her. Even if you don't want to be nice to her. This is not the time for getting any of your needs met by her. Don't expect or ask her to do much of anything, Bob.

If you want to have the happiest M you can have, you need to stop the demands and such. That's not going to work now, and it won't work in the future. Don't ask her to do her share (her share cannot be determined by YOU, it must come from HER...she said it herself I am here aren't I?) Demanding EVER is just not an option anymore. This has been hard for me to believe, too, until I just stopped doing it. It is so much easier than it may seem. It makes you feel so much better. It diffuses LB's instantly, too. No fighting = happier WS, a WS that might actually WANT to hang around. No one wants to be around someone who is demanding things of them, particularly, these foggified WS's!!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">uh huh. We ALL want this, but it rarely happens this way. For most of us, ONE partner in the marriage has to "shoulder the load" for some time. Progress, small or large, is what you are looking for. But do not put the burden of wanting her to "work" with you on restoring the marriage on yourself, or on her, at this point. her "volition" is to be there. To attempt. That is enough. It is a place to start.

Foreverhers hit the nail on the head here:
You reach down and help to pull her out of the quicksand. As much as you'd like her to be beside you helping to pull each other out, that is not today. That is future. Get her out first, then work on pulling together.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very important, and critical to Plan A. There is just no hurrying this stuff. Slow it down, OK?

I wouldn't be breaking her stuff, either, at all, never again, no can do, nada...This is an LB, even though it probably made you feel better for a split second. It pissed her off. If you knew it would, that is not good. Why would she want to come back to someone that messes with her stuff??

I'm sorry I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but I learned so much in 2 sessions with SH, and I'm worried about you pushing her too hard right now. YOU need to sparkle and shine so she will WANT to come back. She's not thinking straight yet, normal logic won't work with WS, so appeal to her 100% of the time and you'll see a difference. Good luck, Bob. I hope you don't get a bruise from my little 2X4 hitting you in the head!

WAID good stuff. I am not demanding anything of WW to the point where WW has no idea what is expected of her. Breaking the CD didn't make me feel good at all, it just hurt me.

HOW-EV-ER the CD thing led to a conversation earlier where We very briefly exchanged opinion. WW left fuly aware that I am committed to rescue our marriage with all my effort and care as long as WW contributes as she is able too.

I expected another long talk tonight BUT she came home from Karate in a very reasonable mood. Maybe some of my point got in, OR? And she felt properly'heard' by me too.

I decided against going for a more detailed chat this evening. Patience, Bob.
It is clear that the message got in, and so did hers. A good day that ends in hope and civility.
Thank you God.

Bob, hang in there. You are doing just fine. Give it time. Your wife may just suddenly become herself again.

Bob...she is so right when she says that being there is all she can do right now.

I made the mistake of deleting my husbands gay porn from the computer (I was soooooooo upset when I found it). He was very angry with me for the same reason that your wife is angry with you. He told me that in good time he would have done it and it would have been an achievement for him. I had taken that away from him. Like you, I wanted things to move along faster than he was ready for them to. I can also warn you that the speed that I was trying to take things at nearly pushed him away for good.

You have such rightous desires to want to see your family functioning as it should. I understand and feel your frustration. Please be patient Bob. Sometimes in trying to move forward we end up moving backwards. You, like I, are so ready for things to be right. The simply fact is its going to take time, and it may be a long time. Your wife is going to take a long time to recoup herself. Just continue to log and celebrate each step forward. Those may be baby steps but they are surely happening for you as they are for me.

Chin up Bob...you are doing wonderfully!

I think, honestly, that Tonight God moved me to 'reach down a hand and pull up WW from the quicksand" as ForeverHers said.
WW was transformed this evening after our talk catalysed by the CD incident earlier. We needed no futher relationship talk tonight.

I learned WW is scared and angry at being abandoned by OM,a nd she almost HOPES that it is because of his son's death, so that the words he said before are not shown up as lies to WW to assure flattery and sex.

She learned that if she only commits to our marriage as she is able, and begins to accommodate my feelings in her decisions I will try in faith to move montains for her and us. No guarantees but I will try. She also now knows that I cannot afford to waste my hard-won energy on trying to rebuild our M alone. One hand cannot clap however hard it is waved.

WW returned from Karate almost like her old self.

Our 'CD' led talk also set a precedent for future conversations, as all bases were honestly touced upon there.

God is a clever old stick really ... the rambling, pussyfooting speech I had rehearsed was chucked out in favour of fifty words that went to WWs heart.

I will be patient. WW may wake meaner'n'a rattlesnake again but some progress was made today. A glimpse of WW through the fog, the first in eight weeks. My LB$ took a small deposit tonight ! First in a LOOOOOOOONG time.
Finally, it feels good having my wedding ring on too. That was the first 8 weeks in 18 years that I've not worn it apart from medical reasons.

Its nice to be married again. For Better or Worse, remember ? Its " worse" right now, but we're still married.

Thank you God and my friends on here.

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

K, just caught your reply at the foot of page 1. I think you are spot on. SAA predicts almost bipolar moods in withdrawal. I only hope that in her moments of clarity we interact enough to properly share where we are. WW seems genuinely convicted that she must effect NC at least if we are to work on our M. She still thinks she can be friends with OM right now, as if his GF will tolerate that: as if I would tolerate that.

Thanks again Mr. Stone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ps, is there a book or a course that adds detail to the MB processes outlined on this site K ? I do not want to turn into an affaor academic BUT I do want to know more about this process I am within.

I have "torn asunder" by Dave Carder, but have found that to be less helpful than I expected. All good sound stuff re affairs, but not directly MB-compliant. thx mate !

Bob..how are you my friend?!?!
First, your topic...Form the outside looking in, a little anger such as what you showed, IMHO, is healthy...shows that you are still human and have feelings. Lots of good responses you received, as usual!

Sorta gonna threadjack about another subject that is "high on your list." Karate. I apologize about this way of doing it, but it sorta goes with the LB'ing.

First of all, I realize every now and again that I am absolutely crazy for being a football (OK, "soccer" for all of us Yanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) referee. The abuse I take...well, your country-mates live and breathe it...I think you know where I'm coming from!

I, too, was on the "fast track" to becoming a national referee. (Unfortunately (or fortunately) I could not commit to it, mainly the time factor.) Anyway, that's another story...

What I am getting at is this: In a *very* contradictory way...It is an excuse for her to escape. It is her way to have *complete* control over a situation. She absolutely needs to take a hiatus from it. She is using this as just another method from not facing her issues. *However*, once she realizes this and can find a balance, it is at the same time absolutely necessary for her to continue with the sport she loves and share that with her family. In this sense, it is very therapeutic (in a very warped way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) for this type of escape.

I probably confused the heck out of you, as karate and football are very different and I projected my situation into hers. But, I hope I made some sense. She really does need to love herself, Bob and her family once again before she can love her sport the way you've explained it. I wonder...has she mentioned what type of evaluations/appraisals/feedback she has gotten by her performance during the A vs. pre-A?

Keep up the great work, Bob. Admire your conviction.

LINY, makes total sense. Couple of points though her obsession with karate is now hurting our kids (a no no). Also refereeing is a certain way to see OM, assuming at some point in the future his GF allows him to return.
And finally Karate is an amoral/immorral world. Severalposters on here have posted & emaile dme affirming this. Senior karatekas summon ungodly spirits to aid them. And the whole sport is rife with violence, infidelity, and criminality.

WW absolutelt MUST stop refereeing if we are to save our M. It was the vehicle for the A, it knowingly hurts our kids and knowingly hurts me.

I will hope to continue to support her sport other than tournaments but WW must choose to prioritise our M an dour kids higher than Karate in her life which she is nowhere near now.

If by Christmas she is still refereeing I will go plan B. Maybe efore even if other stuff is improving. She has woken this morning almost as human as she retired last night. A good small step, but soon she will ned to choose to voluntarily give up stuff which does not support our M recovery. First is the A, second is tournaments/refereeing which are hand in hand with the A.

I have not said this to her in an LB way, I just explained how vital NC is and that extraordinary precaustions fo NC are part of the price she and OM must pay for their infidelity, if indeed they want to recover our relationships.

God got those points across to her yesterday, I do believe. Amen, I will sit back, plan A, love her and let His words work through.

The karate involvement is the lowest on the priority list right now, as it is not facilitating the A and as you say I do not wish to stop all joy in her life. A re-prioritisation of Karate, just as with my work, will be hard to achieve but required if we are to build a better M than before.

Thanks LINY, great post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow.

Had a LOVELY morning, shopping for furniture for kids bedrooms, WW making plans for OUR future, very pleasantly. Then to a lunch, eaten on country pub patio in the sun. Lots of small talk, then WW bought up our short discussion last evening. WONDERFUL discussion ensued. WONDERFUL.

I learned so much. Much hurt, but I needed to hear it. WW learned that there is no point of recovery without NC, and extraordinary measures.

Two heartbroken people talking earnestly and listenening as well as we could bear. Wonderful. Thank you God. We will have worse days than this one, but today was a step forward I feel.

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Good for BOTH of you BOB!
(I praise HIM with You!)

Nice to read of some progress on her end.

It sure makes staying in plan A and overall in the M easier, when you can at least see SOME type of progress being made.
It lets you see (first hand..for yourself) that the situation can improve and the M can be healed.

I realize it can be agonizing to keep reading about others, while your own situation seems stuck in place. It really makes you begin to question yourself and wonder "am I doing something wrong here"?

In addition, It's frustrating having to come to grips with the fact that it took time for the M to get where it is.......and logically its going to take time (and effort) to get it back on track.

But when in the midst of all this, its tough to remain logical.

Happy to know that at least a partial "clearing" is beginning in your home and life.
Positive news is always appreciated
later

TR I've just been praying/meditating this over. I realise that we both needed to walk EVERY STEP of our path so far to get to these days discussions.

I will still back off and plan A, while God's spirit works through WW.

I will see what transpires. My WW clearly knows everything she needs to know right now. I hope she returns to prayer now . I truly do.

I never dreamed I would ever have a day of calm and peace like we have experienced today. I am so relaxed I am going to bed early, to sleep perchance to dream.

There are battles ahead and worse days than this to come, but thank God for this breather. I have come so far dear God. May it please you Lord to allow this mood of progressive civility to sustain. And continue to work on my WW. I love her, I do. If at times in the past 2 months I have wondered why I am working on this, today I know why. I truly love the girl. We may not make it, but I really want us to.

Keep it up plan a'ers. It seems unending but some days a little sunlight gets through the fog and your "taker" staggers out of hiding, blinking in the light for a short while. Its nice. Hopeful.

* nice sigh*

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob, you are doing a WONDERFUL job of plan A. It works, I know. We have fully recovered and are moving up and on. Six years past this now. Read my last post on the recovery board. You CAN do this. And remember... there will be good days and bad. Revel in the good, let the bad go. Peace in God, and Christ in my heart.

Thanks cherise, but I'm just doing the best I can. Lots tpo do if/when we reach the recovery stage after my WW talked to me earnestly Y'day.

I must say, those us us with smashed hearts and lives take our pleasure differently than those folks wh don't know how lucky they are.

After an evening and a whole day of cessation of hostilities, and aHUGE LEAP in discussion and exchanging heart-feelings I had six, lovely, drug-free hours of sleep and awoke with a prayer of thanks not desperation.

Three months ago It wouldn't have registered as pleasure. Right now? I can't hardly remember a better 36 hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sad or what?

Well, lets see how today goes...I will not press for further discussion unless WW wants to. She knows she must decide NC or no NC so we can plan our future together or apart now. And I have a just a glimpse of the huge work we must do in order to rescue our marriage.

I have been concentrating so much on ending the A, I haven't really considered teh huge work we must both do to fix our broken lives.

Now the A is dead everywhere but the last shreds of fog in my WWs head, I see the mountain of recovery looming.

Ah well...the kids noticed ww and I were smiling and POJAing yesterday, and said it was nice. Thank you God.

Dear Bob,

I'm so glad you have had a break! You really needed one!

You'll probably need a lot of patience on the karate thing. Even though my H ended the A immediately, he didn't really understand why we couldn't all be friends again (with OW and OWH) and socialize like we did before. He likes OWH and they shared two hobbies. So it was as if I was "taking away his fun" by wanting NC with OW and OWH. He kept hoping I would "get over it" and change my mind, not realising how hurtful this was to me.

I can understand it's different to him, he was never hurt or lied to or betrayed by OW or OWH so he wouldn't mind being friends still and pretending nothing ever happened. Mind you, OWH doesn't know. It's still hard for me to understand how a good person like my H could be OK with lying to this man and cheating with his wife, and then continue to see him socially like nothing ever happened. Very foggy stuff indeed.

H finally accepted that I wanted to end ALL contact, but I had to be patient for him to really understand and want to give up this part of his social life. I hope one day H will really understand that the decent thing to do towards OWH was to quietly disappear from his life.

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

Brownhair, today has started without hostiity too. Gimble and I prayed for 'an almost tangible peace to settle upon our upset home' and it has. Amen.

WW just has a sort of sadness upon her, but it is not debilitating her from loving the kids and being civil to me. Maybe our discussions have left her with much reality to face. I dunno. They certainly have me.

Your WH attitude is just the one that my WW has regarding OM. Why can't I realise they had a beautiful thing together and they can still be friends? She belives the A is over as she hasn't had sex with him in eight weeks.

Fog is a dreadful liar, it tells infidels that cr@p is chocolate.....

WW is struggling with NC right now after our talks. I hope she decides NC soon. I gave no deadline, but said she should decide if OM contact is important enough for her to prevent work on our M as soon as she can decide, as we have different paths to walk depending on that decision.
We have so much work to do on our M even if she DOES finally end the A.

The karate thing will require huge patience, you're right BH. WW has taken almost all of her personal satisfaction and pleasure from it these past 2 years, pushing me out of her life. She has a lot to give up to truly receive me again as her soul mate and source of companionship. And I have big boots to fill ( the sport not OM !)

BUT tournaments are a small part of Karate, and these must cease and a measure to assure NC, unless a clever workaround can be found.

I will admit I would also like her to give them up for a while at least as a gesture to me, but she is far from such conciliation.

I feel we have taken our first step UP out of the pit these two days, after so many downward ones.

There will be more downs, for sure, but I am enjoying the peace for now. I am still tired as I am relaxing for the first time in weeks ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your insight as ever Brownhair. Bless you.

BTW, howcum you didn't expose to OWH ?

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

* sigh * amidst the peace I have a v-mail from OM GF that she wants to talk. No contact number.

I hope our peace isn't shattered. Still, if she needs me, I must do what I can.