I wish you would have asked her to insist that he send your WW a NC letter. Tell her what it should say; the short and simple version. That is would be good for both her and you with your WW. Since OM is the one that is more firm that he wants NC it may be easier to get him to do this.

I think it sure would help your wife to see it in black and white. It would help OM prove his commitment to his GF and not leave any possibility that he would be leading your wife on (unless your wife saw it as a ruse). Your WW may have been still seemingly hoping that they may continue on with the A after all the dust settles. She may still have hope of that happening. I hope not, of course.

I asked, OM GF said she didn't think OM would do it, and besides which my WW wouldnt believe it ( which is true).

Patience I think. I hope my WW sends her NC soon.

I could give a sh1t about OM if he stays away.

Well Saturday was a big one. OM GF called ( see above) and OM is out of the picture now it seems ( no guard drop at MY end though).

Then we POJAd that I would come help set up Sunday's karate tournament on Sat afternoon and the kids could play. It was really hard work, as I was the only mule for 4 hours, but fun ! Laughing with WW the ladies from the Karate club and grunting and sweating the mats, chairs, tables and other stuff into place for 500 attendees today.

WW was really fun with me ! And appreciative. We got home and showered and dressed to go blwing Sat eveing with friends. WW was funny, and beautiful.

We had a lovely evening , couple of beers, much fun with friends and kids.

Then..strange one...we go to bed, WW needs a good night's sleep as she has a ahrd day today at the tourney, YET she wakes up crying at 4 am, and can't settle.

I try to comfort her, but she's not happy about it so I withdraw.Why would she be so sad after we had such a lovely day ?

Anyway, I have the kids today while WW refs. No chance of OM attending so I can breathe and enjoy the kids a little.

Bob..In reply to why was she crying after such a lovely day?

I remember months after my last relationship was over, waking up crying in teh night. I was already devoted to saving my marriage but sometimes I would still miss the OM and cry over him. Its part and parcel of the process of withdrawal and recovery. Your wife invested a lot of emotion in the OM. It will take time for this melancholy to discharge and for her to be over him. Not matter how much u, or indeed she, wants it , it is a case of time doing the healing. Dont take this personally. In is an involuntary thing and has nothing to do with your recovery or her feelings for you.

Sorry Bob...its a case of patience again!!!! You did well to offer her comfort. Do not hesitate to do this again if it happens. Sometime she may want it and your offering it to her definately scores brownie points:)

You're doing brilliantly Bob..keep going and be patient (dont u hate it when we tell u that?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by Bob Pure:
she wakes up crying at 4 am, and can't settle.

I try to comfort her, but she's not happy about it so I withdraw.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did you do to try and comfort her?

Here's a suggestion .... non-sexual touch.... not even a hug.... just lay your hand lightly on her head and ask if she'd like a glass of water, or an aspirin, or anything..... get her the box of tissues.... then back off.

You're doing great.

Your WW's withdrawl is a good sign! It is the grieving of her wound..... allow this to go unquestioned, don't ask : "Honey, what's wrong?".... Instead ask... "Honey, can I help?"


If she says "No" .... tissue box, cup of tea, and leave her be.


Pep

Debbra, WW isn't even slightly committed to saving our M yet. She hasn't performed a single act in favour of our M against the A. She's at Home (nowhere to go - affair has sunk below the waves) she's been less spiteful and cold to me and the children this week but the selfish behaviour continues apace, (more commitment to highly unnecessary overnight stays at karate events despite my expressed hurt at them, affair triggers all over the house in my plain view, not a word of empathy, remorse, even acknowledgement of my hurt. Nothing. Nada. Niet.

Early days, patience etc. yes, but she needs to make a move soon to indicate she wants to work on our M. She ain't yet.

* Pep, I stoked her back and asked "a penny for your thoughts, darl' ?"

" I'm OK, just leave me " She said

" If I can help, even just listen, I'm here."

" grunt, *sniff* "

I can't imagine even offering a "sexual" comfort to my WW when she is sad. I can;t imagine that ever being appropriate.
I am being deliberately non-physical anyway right now.

Bob - Did you ever read the WW "Moving Forward" thread? Your wife is going through withdrawal. It is extremely painful for her.

So hang in there.

Bob:

I must take issue:

"WW isn't even slightly committed to saving our M yet."

Yes she is. She's home. She's stopped seeing OM. She has STARTED in the only way she can right now.

"She hasn't performed a single act in favour of our M against the A."

What kind of "performance" do you *expect*? And while I'm on the subject, you can *hope*, but you can't *expect*. Recovery must be by the individual for the individual, if the M is 2 recover. You can't rush the process.

"she's been less spiteful and cold to me and the children this week but the selfish behaviour continues apace, (more commitment to highly unnecessary overnight stays at karate events despite my expressed hurt at them, affair triggers all over the house in my plain view, not a word of empathy, remorse, even acknowledgement of my hurt. Nothing. Nada. Niet."

Stop expecting these things and they will come when she's ready and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Let me tell you a story: About a month or so before D-day, during the holidays, I felt kind of strange. Our R was doing better than ever, which was wonderful, especially since we'd just moved for the 2nd time in2 a rental house just 2 months after the fire. I must have been uneasy about things, though, and so I went 2 "my escape" 2 try 2 find solace (really create it for myself). I spent all day, most days for about a week, machining some accessory for one of my telescopes. The more time I spent, though, the more anxious I became. I wasn't happy, I was snippy. There never seemed 2 be enough time 2 do everything I needed, and I felt like I needed time 2 do something solely for myself. Make sense? Looking back on it, I realize that I was getting more uncomfortable with myself because I was behaving selfishly right at a time when my family needed me the most - and while we were making some real progress AS a family. Even with D-day a couple of weeks later, I still believe that what I was doing was going 2 my "addiction" as a remedy for my unease, and that I realized it then and changed my behavior and stopped spending so much time on my personal interests. I still did spend time with it, but I cut it about in half even then... ...of course, when D-day happened, I stopped altogether for more than a year. And it 2k me a while 2 put the whole experience in2 perspective.

I think your W needs 2 be allowed the oppor2nity 2 see and feel what she's sacrificing with her focus on karate. She's going probably because she's unhappy, and is hoping it'll dull the pain of her unhappiness. It'll take her time, but even2ally she'll realize, like I did, that her real happiness is with her family and the legacy she has the chance 2 create.

"Early days, patience etc. yes, but she needs to make a move soon to indicate she wants to work on our M. She ain't yet."

She needs 2 make a move soon? What if she doesn't? Heck, Bob, I have 2 ask myself this "what if" every day. For 32 months now. We all have 2 decide for ourselves when "enough is enough". I've had 2 take what solace I could get from the PROCESS, knowing only that the ultimate goal MIGHT be a restored marriage. In the process of living the process, though, my perceptive abilities have improved tremendously.

"I can't imagine even offering a "sexual" comfort to my WW when she is sad. I can;t imagine that ever being appropriate.
I am being deliberately non-physical anyway right now."

Me 2. It IS inappropriate right now. Better stated, anything that she's uncomfortable with I am learning 2 be willing 2 forego for now. Not focusing on the physical has made it easier 2 work on the friendship and companionship things, the things that probably "broke" first and must be restored in order 2 restore the M at some point.

Look, I don't always know whether what I'm doing is right or not. But it IS me now. I'm learning 2 be happy with the way I'm handling things from my end, and working on not resenting the apparent lack of reciprocation. Because it's *apparent* 2 me, but it might not be 2 her.

Stroking her hair or bringing her a drink of water without being asked: Those are the things I'm best at!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"WW isn't even slightly committed to saving our M yet."

Yes she is. She's home. She's stopped seeing OM. She has STARTED in the only way she can right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry 2long no. Shes home because she chose an affair with a wastrel who cannnot provide her with a place to live, and judging by the speed of his backpedalling on exposure, he never intended to anyay. She even bought LOTTERY TICKETS with my money so she could fund their life if she won. Laugh ? I almost wet myself at THAT one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She didn;t stop seeing OM, he stopped seeing her. I believe she'd go in a second if he called to meet her at their by the hour motel had he not called and told her to 'stay the f@*% away from me ' (according to OM GF) after I sent proof to OM GF.

She's started , what exactly ? She's not done a thing nor said a word to commit to our M. Not thrown out the illegal CDs he made her after their first sex seesion that still sits in our kictchen, nor given up the 'secret phone' I pay for her to try to contact OM, nor thrown out the whorish underwear she bought on my chargecard to have sex with him in, not removed the periodicals with photos of them both in from the foreign trip where they 'fell in love'.

I could go on.

She aint done a thing but make herself comfortable at home 2long. I'm hopeful but not stupid.

I need to give her lots more time, sure but not endless.

Well she just got back from her days refereeing, which she chose to do knowing it hurt me. That bundled up with my frustration means I....massaged her feet when she came in, loaded the bathroom with candles and ran her a deep hot bath to unwind in with a bottle of good South African Sauvignon Blanc.

No fuss, no kissing just " enjoy, darl..." She smiled a lot. A LOT and tried not to . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She be in it now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"I could go on."

Yes you could. So could I. I choose not 2.

You ran the bath for her:

That is HOPE. That COULD be being a doormat.

I no longer think I'm being a doormat. And when I see "progress" it's faint, I have 2 look for it, but so long as I chalk it up 2 her progress, I don't feel so disappointed. It's easy 2 get disappointed and start 2 feel resentful and expectant.

That's what I'm "warning" you about.

"You might as well be paranoid, because people really ARE out 2 get you" -Roger Ebert.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ September 12, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long U in deeper poop than even I seen in books, its true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am resigned to plan a'ing, not TAKING for a while. I'm not even saying that I SHOULD see any commitment to our M yet. I'm just saying that there ain't been any yet.

I don't feel like a doormat either, because this is a transient, purposeful state I'm in. Plan A.

I become a doormat THE SECOND that plan A isn;t engendering some commitment response from WW after the 'right' amount of time. That may be weeks, months, I dunno yet what the timecale is for WW. We haven't been here before. It sure isn;t yet, as only 8 weeks have passed since d-day.

I was just pointing out that IMO WW hasn't lited a finger yet to save our M.

Good luck, mate. {{{{2l}}}}

Bob..your wife is not raising a finger to save your marriage because right now she CANT! She is in withdrawal. This is a grieving process. She is grieving the loss of her dreams. It is very much like the feeling of losing a loved one.

I know that this is NOT FAIR. I know that she has no right to be grieving. I know that its unfair that its YOU doing all the work when she did all the damage.

Unfortunately this isnt about being right or wrong, its about saving your marriage. the simple fact is that your wife is doing all she can do just by going out to lunches with you, accepting your generosity and magnanamosity. She COULD be angry and throwing all this back in your face but she isnt.

You are making wonderful progress Bob. She will look back on this time in the future and realise just how wonderful you are being when you could be LBing all over the place (and have a right to be).

Just keep being wonderful Bob. Rejoice in every small step....remember that smile when u made that candlelit bath for her. You are truly making yourself irresistable! Her acceptance of these gestures is a sign that she is also moving forward...Dont try to push her faster than she can go.

I think Bob is sharp enough to realize that she has nothing to give at this moment because she is in withdrawal. But since he also knows it's a temporary state, he is willing to tough it out as long as there is a light at the end of tunnel.

Is it alright if I put words in your mouth, Bob? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

P.S. I think you are doing great!

Thanks Debbra ! I don't think I'm doing great, but I'm doing what I can.

Melody, U right I know that stuff. Its not impatience, really, its the HURT at the considered selfishness of WW. I see that "thanks for the sex" illegal CD every time I switch on the radio in our family kitchen. My kids cry every time we do a family thing without Mom 'cos shes at some unnecessary sporting or social event. I want that to stop and any decent person would atleast hide that sh1t right ?

Incidentally - a tale i could tell WW but won't is that one song OM put on the "thanks for the mammaries" illegal CD was used at his Son's funeral...OM destroyed the CD and file at home as soon as OM GF pointed that out and cried in the garden.

U think WW would stull value that CD if I told her ? She wouldn't believe me so I'm saying nothing....

The REAL hurter is that now I am strong, the A is dead and I come to deconstruct it....this isn;t fog. She's been as self-serving as this, more and more over the past year or so. The A was just the last selfish indulgence she could go for. The next logical step in concentrating only on WW after 17 years of marital care for her family.

Even now the A seems dead, the mountain of recovery looms and if I know my WW at all, she ain't gonna do one tenth of whats needed to fix it. And I can't do that alone. I don't WANNA do that alone.

And yes, on her day WW even PRE-A was stubborn enough to divorce or die over winning a dumb argument. Its why I didn't confront her strongly over the increasingly wayward and selfishly independent behaviour over the past coupla years.

Reading all I can, and listening carefully I try to get inside my WWs head right now. I think SHE thinks we will just go back to our pre-A M, and she will be trapped in a loveless sham with boring old me for the rest of her life ( she doesn't know Affair dynamics like we do remember - she won't read up because " theirs was a special love * Puuuuuuuke* ")

I am and will remain patient, its much easier without the deliberate hostility from WW I've had for a couple of months I will admit , I'm just worried at the amount of work we must do to fix our M.


Odd that OM GF in her talk with me Saturday told me OM is utterly contrite, handed over cellphones, diaries, told her everything times, dates, hotels of sex sessions (only two according to him - " less than ten" according to WW) shown all the cards my WW sent him etc etc. Radical honesty.

My WW still sneaks, lies and hides everything from me. And I've given up sneaking to find stuff out. I've never been any good at lying or sneaking, I'm better off without trying. Besides with the A dead, what can I find out from her thats useful ?

Of course WW still accuses me of sneaking. because she is a liar and a sneak, she thinks everyone else is too. * sigh*

Back to plan A. Thanks folks. I'm doing fine, just expressing my hurt over the deliberate triggers my WW still sticks in my face.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(from your Fog Talk thread)
Last night I move to take my 7YO son to bed.

YS " Mommy can you take me to bed please?"
WW " No, Daddy will "
YS *upset* " But I haven't seen you since last night, you've been karate-ing again"
WW " DADDY WILL TAKE YOU ! "
YS " Please Mommy, you're never here to put me to bed now "
WW *sneering * " You'll get over it...."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, WW *sneering * " You'll get over it...." - This is NOT a "plan A" moment, IMHO.

YOU are the head of the household, and like it or not your wife WILL treat the children with love and respect or she won't be around them. It is time you establish some Boundaries with her, fog or no fog. Her continuing sin needs to be confronted, not in anger or with shouting, but with clear, calm resolve.

Bob, you need to be taking a stand FOR God and against sin. If there is not a change in her behavior soon, you are going to have to consider a Plan B. She IS NOT going to be allowed to attack you AND the children with impunity. If she can't even "fake" loving concern for the children, she has no business hanging around to poison them with her venom.

Bob, sadly not all marriages recover from infidelity. All the laughing at "fog lines" aside, her attack upon your son was SERIOUS, bordering on, if not in fact, verbal child abuse. Things she may say to you, you can choose to ignore as "fog talk," but things like this carry much destructive explosive force to a child who does not have the experience or maturity to "handle it." All they know is that a person they love has REJECTED them and told them it's THEIR problem ("you'll get over it"). This is pure unadulterated selfish behavior on your wife's part. She, in her mind, wants to be single with no children. Perhaps it's time to let her actually feel what it might be like.

Bob, it is time to clarify your Boundaries and the Boundaries for your wife's interaction with the children. Make it clear to her that SHE is the adult and if she can't at least ACT like one, then she is not welcome around the children.

This is NOT a situation where it's better to ignore what the WS is saying, it is time to let them know that there ARE lines YOU are not willing to have crossed. She is going to have to make a CHOICE and that you will all live with the consequences of that choice.

Now might be the most propicious time to possibly implement Plan B. If the OM is so serious about working on his relationship with his GF, your wife "on her own" would try to turn to him and HE would have to try to meet all of her needs. Not going to happen if he is trying to work on his relationship with his GF. The fantasy will break apart rather quickly, and YOU don't have to be the "bad guy." You stand on God's commands and let her tell God, not you, how her actions are "right and sinless."

If you should choose to go something along this route, make sure you also tell her that you love her but will not allow her continuing sin to destroy you God-given family. Tell her that you stand ready to forgive her when she has repented and sought forgiveness from God, but that her relationship with God must come first if there is going to be a marriage.

Are YOU ready to trust in God no matter what? Should you choose this "tougher line" you need to be ready. Addicts who feel cornered often spew all sorts of venom to try to avoid responsibility and the need to make a choice. If they sense weakness on your part, they will attempt to exploit it to avoid having to "give up" the addiction.

Having been in the situation where I had to make a similar choice, I know how hard this can be and how fearful the future can seem. That is why I stress the need for you to be ready to trust God for the ultimate outcome and to help you stand for His commands no matter what anyone else says or does. It's a very lonely, scary, time. But it may be the only way to get an addict to "hit bottom" and begin to see that THEY are responsible for what is happening and that only THEY can make the choices to end the addiction and rebuild their lives.

Bob, I'm not saying the you need to act today, but I am saying that you need to be ready to implement Plan B sooner rather than later. For me, it came about 3.5 months after our initial d-day and repeated failed attempts at recovery. Unlike your case, my wife's OM was single and they had plans to marry, but it became necessary to say "no more" active sin against God AND still be living in our house. ONE or the OTHER, but not both. God cannot exist alongside of sin. She, your wife and mine, cannot serve two masters. Sin and holiness cannot coexist together. Satan and Christ cannot coexist as being the center of your life, one will be and the other will be discarded.

I pray for God's strength and wisdom for you as you place your trust in Him for His help and guidance in fulfilling your role as head of your household, acting in Christ's stead.

God bless.

Bob, I probably should be writing this on the AD thread, but I wanted to make sure you get this message. One reason that psychiatrists want a person who is on an AD to remain on the med for 6 months to a year is this. They have found that when someone stops too soon they can have rebound depression. It concerns me a bit how short of a time you were on the AD. Please just monitor your mood. If you find yourself becoming more depressed again this could be the reason. I just wanted to caution you. You are doing great by the way. I do agree with foreveryours in regards to your children. Withdrawal or not, your W has to behave kindly to you children. CV

* CV55 I went ON and OFF a-ds under medical supervision. I suffered shakes, cold sweats and anxiety attacks as side effects. Dr. reduced then stopped my dose and wanted me to stablise before re-prescribing. I visit weekly, and I'm doing good. Doc thinks I don't need a-d's. He's not an easy prescriber which I a grateful for.

Really CV, I'm not depressed, stuffs going OK for me after some of the stuff I have endured. Its just that ANYONE would be hurt by some of the selfish cr@p WW is doing.

I be strong, can suck it up for a while longer while she withdraws. Thanks for concern tho ' ! {{{{CV}}}}

* FH, amazing you should post that. * deleted long, too personal post*

We just had lunch and discussed that. WW cried and said " I don't mean to, but you put the idea in their heads about me spending too much time at Karate and...."
ME "I put NOTHING in their heads ! They told you that ! Or do you think that becaiuse you are incapable of telling the truth so are our children ? You have spent EVERY WEEKEND and TWENTY SIX evenings at karate events in the past two months. YOU need to think if hat makes you a capable Mom or not?"

WW crying...

Plus much more.

She knows she's being a selfish b1tch but can't help herself while she's withdrawing.

I'm not sure what to do. She's made so much progress in the past week, and that sneer was a one-off BUT its unaccaptable.I will pray about it it later and see what I should do. The kids are convicting her of her selfishness, I am sure God will not let them be hurt by His use of them as an instrument of righteousness.

Dunno. Good post. I'll see how she is with the kids tonight. Oh, except shes at Karate so I'll out them to bed again.... * sigh * I hate what she's become I really do. We have so much to do to rebuild this mess.

Look, Bob:

"WW crying...

Plus much more.

She knows she's being a selfish b1tch but can't help herself while she's withdrawing.

I'm not sure what to do. She's made so much progress in the past week"

I cry thinking about this, knowning how things could go in a si2ation like this (we've had several of these).

Yes, you should stand firm on your boundaries. Yes, you COULD go 2 plan B right now and get "results" fairly 2uickly.

But: "She knows she's being a selfish b1tch but can't help herself while she's withdrawing." may be true, but is thinking of her as a b**** helping you plan A her much?

The hard part about the MB plans is doing all the "right things" without being a doormat, developing new behavior patterns of YOUR OWN that are conducive 2 saving your M (and the best changes are the ones you were weak on well before the A, but didn't realize it), and being patient when that's appropriate.

She's in WITHDRAWL right now. Gadzooks, Bob. You've come so far with not being destroyed by her actions, it'd be a shame 2 "push her" back in2 these behaviors when she's making so much progress. YES, she has a long way 2 go and you are frustrated with the triggers, but she IS making progress.

Try 2 cherish that, in thoughts and actions, particularly around her, instead of labeling her. I'm betting "you're a b****" is written across your forehead, so far as her perception of how you treat her is concerned. Fair? Heck no. But I know what it's like 2 undo my own progress with DJs (even unvocalized ones). More than anything I've done, it's those that prolong this process.

I'm sorry if this upsets you. This process can be enlightening, but it's seldom ever fun.

-ol' 2long

2l, your 2x4 hit the spot. You're right of course but I'm not superman. She's hurting me and my kids with her knowing selfishness. B1tch is as b1tch does. I can try not to say or infer that to her (managed so far) but hard not to think it when its so true. I will try harder. I'd need a lobotomy to do a perfect plan A with these kinds of behaviours from WW though....

ANY OTHER PERSON made my kids cry like that and I'd deal with it very differently. grr.

We just joked before we went to collect kids from school, so no harm done by me I think and as she volunteered to collect youngest one, I guess a few points of mine got home too.

Hard stuff. And yes we've come on enormously in eight weeks of plan A. i hope we continue so !

Thanks 2l.