I've read and re-read plan A and I'm still struggling with understanding it. I know now not to have any expecations and to take the emotion out of it. That has been a big help.

As I read it I still have the same questions - How do I negotiate an end to the A? Do I repeatedly ask her to end contact with him? Do I offer up things for us to work on in our marriage together? Do I ask her what she'd like to work on in our marriage?

At this point I've been focusing on providing a feeling of love and happiness in the home. Showing my WW that there is an alternative if she wants it.

I still tell her I love her, still am happy to see her, and still engage in conversation with her, still enjoy our time with the kids.

How and where do I try to negotiate the end to the A?

TD

Read ARKs reply to some of my posts. I have printed them and read and re-read every day....They keep me going....they keep me in plan A.

click on my name and then click on recent posts and see

You sound like me and are looking for an excuse to plan b. Going to plan B is easier but neither of us (you or I )has done a good plan A long enough.

How do I negotiate an end to the A? Do I repeatedly ask her to end contact with him?

TDVA, you can't do a dam' thing to directly stop the affair. Nothing. Exposure can help enormously, but most affairs end sooner than you think of their own accord PARTICULARLY when exposed properly.

In Plan A you MUST constantly remind your WS how hurtful and humiliating it is to you for her to keep contacting OM when all you want to do is use your energy with her in restoring yoru Marriage.

I have used THESE words "When you contact OM it humiliates me quite knowingly in a way that I do not feel I deserve. I cannot force you to stop contact because I love you, but I want you to know how enabling it will be to restoring our M if you stop contacting OM, and how happy it would make me."

She didn't stop immediately but it petered out.

Do I offer up things for us to work on in our marriage together?

Nope. Ever tried building a treehouse ? Imagine doing it with one hand.... Until she admits in her HEART that the A is over, there IS no M rebuilding. All you should do is make sure all the tools you need are there, lookin' good and all the parts prepared. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Do I ask her what she'd like to work on in our marriage?

Sure, if you want her to lie to you. She wants to keep the marriage convenient but at arms length right now, and wants you to be less suspicious so she can cake-eat with OM. She'll tell you she's working on the Sistine chapel ceiling if it keeps you off her back to sneak with OM. Don't let MB procedures take your eye off the ball. MBstuff INCLUDING WS starts ONLY after the A ends and Withdrawal becomes bearable. Its all 'bout you till then, my friend. You are your family's pillar of sanity. A heroes gig.

It is NOT a LB to tell WS how you feel about flagrant emotional abuse or disrespect of you.

Plan A INFLUENCES but not EFFECTS the end of an A. When the A ends, your WW will look around and everything will be smashed - he whole life will be crap - everything except, after your plan A, you will have provided a suprisingly welcoming place for her, where she take take initial refuge and lick her wounds. You do that well enough she may even consider hopping aboard the TDVA train earlier than otherwise.

Don't be frustrated, the A WILL end, and plan A, although it feels passive is a PROVEN method of accelerating the end of affairs and to fast-path recovery afterwards.

Stick with it mate, back off from relationship talk, don't take ANY humiliation and be a calm, supportive catch that any woman would like. Make sure you do not neglect your own social life - get out there, dress up, smell nice, have a laugh. Make her realie the FACT that you ain't sittin' home crying waitin' on her caprice to turn yo' way.

A beer in my local awaits you mate, anytime you're in England {{{{TDVA}}}}

<small>[ September 20, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

TDVA, heres a thing I posted in the 'desert' of plana/plan b forum a while back. I know you know this stuff, but worth restating anyway, right ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Hi Thatsall and Snoopwell !

I understand your concerns. I have had something of a 'microwave' plan A in the last three months so I have the luxury of the logic of it all falling into place pretty quickly ( although it didn't seem that way).
Old heads please swat me : this is Bob opinion !

* Your instinct as a BS is to be angry, indignant, sad, fearful, reactionary etc and no-one could blame you. However actions supporting these emotions will REINFORCE the fantasy in your WS warped mind that you are a worse bet as a life partner than the OP and that the A was justified.

* You may feel 'better' by venting, doing the vengeance dance etc, but this will almost certainly fatally break your relationship.

* Plan A is a carefully calculated response to the fact of an affair that recognises the strengths and weaknesses of the BS position at this time, and who wants to save their M. It is NOT instinctive, in fact it is counter-intuitive, but it works if adhered to. To use MaddyKs analogy :scratching poison ivy rash feels SO GOOD but causes nothing but grief. Instinct does not always help in complex situations.

* FACT a BS cannot directly stop an affair unless they kill or kidnap one or both infidels, and thats not usually recommended by MC

* FACT NEITHER is a BS as helpless as they think they are, and has an armoury of weapons to use. Plan A bundles these for use in a proven strategy.

* Plan A recognises the uncomfortable reality that although the BS is IN NO WAY responsible for the A and that an A is NEVER JUSTIFIED or OK the BS HAS contributed to the marital environment being ripe for an A. This is a major thing to choke down for most BS ( it was for me!) , but its also a major enabler to recovery. Once you know what broke in YOU you can start fixing it.

* Using tools such as exposure the affairs bindings can be exposed to the light. Typically A's only make sense in a by-the-hour highway motel for two hours at a time when only the lying infidels listen to each others fog drivel and 'lets pretend' sex. Exposure to OPs significant other, and carefully targeted family and friends and colleagues forces this shaky, sex-justfying bag of fluff to the scrutiny of the real world. In MOST cases, the bindings disappear like vampires in the sun leaving the infidels 'love affair' looking like the tawdry, cowardly alternative to fixing a flagging marriage that it truly is.
And YES exposing is counter intuitive too, but it WORKS !! see now ?

* So when the A is exposed as a shabby thing, Plan A also makes sure that you, the BS have ALREADY and PROACTIVELY recognised the failings in your behaviour and demeanour that led to the marriage flagging and made a start at fixing them. You have also patently disarmed your WS by not being violent, disrespectful, unforgiving nor any of the other things that they expected and FEARED you would be. In fact you raised your game SIGNIFICANTLY as spouse material and they begin to notice it, really.

* WSs fear that with the death of the A, they have no safe place to go, not the OP and certainly not home to face the judgment and wrath of the BS they have hurt do much....except the BS has done everything possible to provide a place of calm safety for the WS to return to. My own FWW thought it was a trick! She couldn't believe the loving and non-hudgmental "nest" I'd made for her when she felt she deserved it so little...through Plan A I'm a better Dad than I've been in years, a better listener and more thoughtful of my FWWs needs. Plus MUCH slimmer, fitter and more buff ( GgrrrrOOOWWWLLLLL ! )

* SOME A's bindings are stronger than others and SOME WSs find it harder than others to return home, so plan A may not always work at killing the A and providing a sanctuary for the WS to recover in. Thats when plan B kicks in. Plan B REMOVES the sanctuary , love , forgiveness and support so carefully built and demonstrated in PLAN A from the WS. You do a good plan A and you will be REALLY missed, while OM looks everyday more like the unreliable, lying betrayers they always are.

* See how it works ? By choosing to lay down your righteous indignation in plan A you are in NO WAY a doormat any more than spying for the Allies made brave intelligence folks in WW2 Nazis. You are bravely and deliberately overruling your primal instinct in support of the marriage God gave you and you gave to God and each other.

* Follow carefully what you WS DOES during plan A not what they SAY. The 'Fog' of addiction messes with infidels minds in a truly terrible way. Learn reverse fog babble to help. Expect hurtful lying horseapples and you'lll not be disappointed from your WS during plan A.

* STUDY(not just read) SAA, HN/HN , this site, the old heads stories and become aware of the dynamics of affairs. Deconstruct your own situation and apply the principles to it. Knowledge is power. Understand that affairs are JUST LIKE medical conditions, the symptoms, prognosis and cure are all utterly predictable in most cases. Your sitch feels unique BUT IT AIN'T ! THIS STUFF HAS WORKED FOR THOUSANDS OF COUPLES IN EXACTLY YOUR SITCH !

* Finally I have said before that Plan A is a heroes gig and I still think so. For a 'silverback' like me the easy way is to go crashing around hitting people , suing people and making lives bad. Instinct isn't bravery.

Bravery is doing what is needed, however uncomfortable, frightening and counter-instuitive to rebuild a stable loving platform for all involved in the mess of an affair.

Even if Plan A and Plan B doesn't recover your M , it will leave you a much more "examined" person able to move on in life and not repeat the errors that contributed to the problems in the M.


I hope I have helped explain my take on Plan A. And to close, Plan A has worked UP THE WAZOO for us so far so I'm not talking theory.

All blessings folks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

How do I negotiate an end to the A?

you don't negotiate an end to an affair...the truth is the affair either ends...or the marriage ends...

bob pure said this..it's great...

"When you contact OM it humiliates me quite knowingly in a way that I do not feel I deserve. I cannot force you to stop contact because I love you, but I want you to know how enabling it will be to restoring our M if you stop contacting OM, and how happy it would make me."

oooh good stuff...really good...

tdva..what's the tone in the house...

oppressive...
any joy anywhere?

Plan A INFLUENCES but not EFFECTS the end of an A.

dang tdva...you don't need me...just read and re-read what bobpure wrote...

ark

Thanks for the help. Just got off the phone with WW. Explained to her that I was hurting and that I missed her. Told her I will continue to love her and the family.

Told her it hurts me that she is contacting and seeing him. WW asked for proof. Told her I didn't have any.

Anyway, she says she is going through the motions with me. Feels stuck.

Doesn't want to go back to me. Scared to move forward "alone". I almost had to laugh when she said "alone".

I hope I handled the call alright. Stated my position on how I'd like her to end contact with OM, that I still love her, and that I don't have a desire to leave the house or kids or sit down with a mediator with her. Told her it hurts and that I'd love for her to work at this marriage with me. But I know that sounds scary and that it isn't very romantic or exciting.

was that okay?

But I know that sounds scary and that it isn't very romantic or exciting.


TDVA I will only advise where I know a bit, like Plan A but I WILL say don't apologise for not being her infidel !!!

A good husband like you are willing to be is as exciting and romatic as it comes.! NO decent woman wants anything else in her life than that ! Than YOU ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is NO "romance" in the filth of an affair, no more than there is an any junkie shooting up heroin.

Kids read about Aerosmith's , or G'n'R's bad boy history , say and think being a junkie rock star is romantic and exciting, when what it actully is is a self-deluding, cowardly, immoral way to hide from lifes true responsibilities and joys. Just like An A.

Be careful but not apologetic when dealing with your WW. Let her know that you have other options too, and if she strings you along for too long, she ain't gonna have 'a backup position' in her life.

FOG babble update.

Got my WW to engage in some conversation today. first time in a couple of weeks.

Spoke of how she is not in love with me, doesn't want to stay married. And doesn't think there is a way to get it back.

Said she'd hope I wouldn't put the kids in the middle of this.

Thinks I'm trying to put the kids on "my side".

Said she would be up for counseling, just not any kind of couples counseling. Something more "traditional".

Said in a perfect life, we would stay married, be happy, and raise the kids, but this isn't a perfect life.

Asked me what I've told the kids about our situation.


I did my best to hesitate, dodge, and not answer just to confuse her a bit. At least I've got her wheels spinning again.

sorry, forgot a couple of FOG babbles:


I am doing everything perfectly

I am doing things out of the textbook

she will be the bad guy and have all the guilt. she's prepared for that.

everyone will be on my side

Spoke of how she is not in love with me, doesn't want to stay married. And doesn't think there is a way to get it back.
I said to FWWs ILYBINILWY "I also feel a strangeness in my love for you. Perhaps thats how people feel when involved people are having affairs ?"

Said she'd hope I wouldn't put the kids in the middle of this.
I replied to this statement " I agree the kids shouldn't be put in the position of being amidst an affair, they should have a stable married environment to thrive in"

Thinks I'm trying to put the kids on "my side".

another one I've heard from FWW! I said " I'm supporting my kids the best way I know how, by loving them and doing all I can to keep them safe and happy. The kids and I would welcome you on 'my side' too if you chose to rejoin us.

Said she would be up for counseling, just not any kind of couples counseling. Something more "traditional".
Now THAT is funny babble ! What does she want to do, throw out MB for an Amish counsellor or something ? Or get Santa to do it, he's traditional ! LOL ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
My FWW dismisses MB, the books I study and any concept of counselling right now, but that sbecause she suspects no-one will agree with her viuew that the A was a beautiful good, God given thing ! Same with yours I guess

Said in a perfect life, we would stay married, be happy, and raise the kids, but this isn't a perfect life.

I'd say " I fully agree ! This isn;t a perfect life because one of us is choosing an imperfect alternative to that life right now

TDVA, that stuff stabs your heart I KNOW but its FOG man. FOG. She can't help that caca. Detach yo'se'f from it for a while.

<small>[ September 20, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

thanks for the input. I need to get better at this and the FOG thing. It is tough because she steadfastly denies there even is an affair. Very different than first time, where she bragged that the A and the OM were perfect for her. She is doing her best to separate out me from OM, but I know she can't, and I won't let her.

I wrote this e-mail to her. I will pull back now. I just wanted to get her brain going a little bit to know I'm still out here an not going anywhere. Let me know if this was appropriate:


I'm trying to be better at discussing my feelings with you without judging you. I want to be clear about my thoughts and not just emotionally attack you. I hope you saw progress on the calls today.

I see where you feel stuck. You don't want to go back to me & you and our old relationship. I know that we have work in front of us to try to build our relationship, and recover from this. I will take back something I said earlier today. I said that staying with me and working at this doesn't sound very exciting or romantic. The more I thought the more I realized that being with you and rebuilding our marriage would be very exciting. As we grow together and learn to meet each other's needs it will be the most romantic relationship I could think of. And to do it while loving and raising three great kids tops it all off.

I want to be clear about what I asked you today: -- I believe our family is the foundation that can give both of us the energy to work at this and have the loving, happy marriage we both want and need. I believe the best happiness and life for us and our kids is for us to be in a strong, loving marriage, raising our kids under one roof, but it also takes the most amount of time and effort. --

I look at I's eyes, hear P's voice, or see K skateboard and that is all the strength I need to continue to love and work at our marriage.


I know it is short notice, but would you be willing to attend the following Marriage Seminar this weekend? It is Friday evening and all day Saturday. If so, I will make arrangements and we can have someone come in to watch the kids. I think it is important for us to go to something like this to hear firsthand what is out there and how love and marriage work.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi011_0409.html

Dr. Harley has written the books Love Busters; His Needs, Her Needs; and others. The object of the weekend is the following:

The Marriage Builders® Weekend provides couples with an opportunity to learn how to fall in love and stay in love. Dr. Harley will lead the workshop himself and introduce to you the basic concepts that have made his solutions to marital problems so successful.
In Dr. Harley's workshop you will learn:
What the feeling of love is. How it is created. How it is destroyed.
How our instincts and habits affect the feeling of love.
What important emotional needs are, and how you can identify them.
How to meet each other's most important emotional needs.
How to protect each other from your destructive predispositions.
How fair negotiation can help you fall in love and stay in love.

TDVA, My FWW would tell me to stuff it, but I wish you the best of luck with your suggestions.

{{{tdva}}}}

Thanks.

Boy, I'm really finding myself questioning everything this morning. Is my WW right, was it not really that good a M? Is it too hard to go back to us again? Would we be happier apart? Maybe I'm not the right person for her, etc.


tough morning. need MB to lift me back up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TDVA:
<strong>
The more I thought the more I realized that being with you and rebuilding our marriage would be very exciting. As we grow together and learn to meet each other's needs it will be the most romantic relationship I could think of. And to do it while loving and raising three great kids tops it all off.

I want to be clear about what I asked you today: -- I believe our family is the foundation that can give both of us the energy to work at this and have the loving, happy marriage we both want and need. I believe the best happiness and life for us and our kids is for us to be in a strong, loving marriage, raising our kids under one roof, but it also takes the most amount of time and effort. --

I look at I's eyes, hear P's voice, or see K skateboard and that is all the strength I need to continue to love and work at our marriage.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't comment on whether the email was appropriate in your situation as I don't know enough about the current state of your relationship...but I did want to tell you that I think the email was completely beautiful. I simply can't imagine getting an email like that and not being moved to tears.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

tough morning. need MB to lift me back up. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sending you a lot of positive thoughts and prayers and holding you in the light.

TVDA...Im am really concerned about your lovebusters and desire to have deep conversations with your wife about your relationship.

Right now she is IN THE FOG. This means that she is incapable of having a rational discussion about the relationship anyway. If you want to discuss your relationship then do it here. we are all willing to listen and sympathise.

More worrying is your lovebusting. remember that your wife is looking for excuses to end your marriage. Any loss of temper on your part will be capitalised on by her to justify her role as an abused and neglected spouse. We all understand your frustration but u need to find some otehr way of letting your anger out. when I was having my affair (the one where i truly felt in love with the guy) my husband would vacilate between being over nice to me (presents, flowers etc) and verbally getting at me and calling me names when his frustrations got the better of him. In the end this really made me believe that I would be happier without him.

PlanA is about u being cool, calm and collected. A reasonable and pleasant person. When your wife comes out of the fog she needs to have memories of a ncie person not a raging bull!!!

patience is a virtue..pray for itand practise it!

thanks for the input. I appreciate it and find myself in my own FOG about this. Let me run this one by all of you:

I went to my counselor today and discussed what I was doing - Plan A, etc.

My counselor's concern is that I'm not setting up any boundaries, that I'm letting my WW do what she wants and letting her think she is getting away with it.

Probably the biggest problem with my M was that both my WW and myself would avoid conflict. Instead of trusting and expressing our feelings in the moment and resolving an issue, we'd either ignore it or say the right things, then handle it on our own. This lead to a build up of frustration that would occasionally boil over.

So, given that as the biggest problem in my M, is Plan A helping my WW along? She feels no pressure to end the A and work on our M. Are we both still avoiding conflict?

Perfect example, I found a text message on her phone Sunday morning from OM. I chose not to confront her about it. Should I say something to let her know I looked at her phone and found the text message?

Help!!!

what are you afraid of in not confronting with evidence...

have you exposed the affair...

is he attached at all..

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> what are you afraid of in not confronting with evidence...

Good question. I guess the whole Plan A this is confusing me. Do I still confront her? Maybe that is my problem all along. I don't handle confrontation with her well


have you exposed the affair...

Yes to her sister and her friend at work. I have not to her parents yet. When she had a first affair 4 years ago I exposed to all. She was angry and seems to still hold that against me, so I'm struggling with exposure


is he attached at all..

No, he is divorced, military guy. Kids on west coast. he lives outside DC, but also think he travels a bunch. When he is here he has no distractions and spends all time fawning over her


ark </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

you definitly confront those things plan a...
you set boundaries...

you confront logically without name calling and judgement...


you speak of your pain with seriousness and good eye contact...

do not power struggle...


don't let your own fears become your own fog...

you can't make her do a thing...
you are not the cause of her affair or it's actions...

ark

got it. That is where I'm struggling.

Question, can I send this e-mail instead? Or is this best done eye-to-eye?

Okay, I'm not very good at this. This is one thing I need to improve in my next relationship. One reason I'm going to counseling. I need to trust my feelings, identify an issue when it happens, and work through it to resolution.

I still believe and want that next relationship to be with you.

That being said, Monday when we spoke you asked me what was bothering me. I hesitated, but did not answer. I know I should be doing this in person, eye-to-eye, but I need to take baby steps, so e-mail will have to do. I don't want to fight about this, and there is no point in arguing as I know your position and you know mine.


I did see the text message on your phone Sunday morning from the OM.

That hurt me like you cannot comprehend. I was proud of myself for not exploding or overreacting. I gathered myself and went on with my day. That is the inner strength I am building and working on through prayer and counseling.


I look forward to work at this marriage with you.