About boundaries...

first u need to decide where your boundaries are. What are u prepared and not prepared to put up with?

When I first came back, my husband told me that he was planning a trip to Cyprus in the summer to meet his online lover. I took stock and then told him that under no circumstances was I prepared to put up with this. It has not been often that I have set up boundaries but this was one of them. Was it a LB? yes, absolutely. Did it achieve what I wanted ....also absolutely. He made no trip to cyprus. The boundaries you set will be up to you, but choose them carefully as u will have to live with them and your WS's reaction to them. My husband still chats online every day. i hate this but I have not chosen it as a battle. You do not need to shout and make a scene when you set your boundaries. Simply tell your wife calmly what they are and refuse to be drawn into argument or negotiation about them.

Now...about exposure. YES its a lovebuster but its part of PlanA for a reason. Exposure does tend to lead to the ending of the affair and therefore it IS worth it. It is part of PlanA because it is tried and tested. It is not part that you can choose to leave out. Why doesnt your life want u to expose? because it would be uncomfortable for her. At the moment she is very comfortable in her affair. Exposure will rock her boat. It may or may not sink it but its certainly worth a try. After u expose she will tell you that you now have NO CHANCE of ever getting her back. This is Fog talk standard. She is trying to set non exposure as a boundary for you!!! Remember that you will only need to expose ONCE and that she will get over it. Just be prepared for a backlash for few days. By not exposing you are enabling her affair. You have described how exposure did help to end her last affair. It will probably help end this one as well.

Get the exposure over with as soon as possible and then get back into your normal sweet PlanA mode.

Do notbe afraid of telling your wofe when something that she does hurts hurts you, as you have in this email with reference to the text. Your wife needs to know the pain that she is inflicting.

Have you read Bob Pure's posts? He has done a textbook PlanA , including exposure (and facing the aftermath). he also let his wife know when she was hurting him.

Keep going, you are really on the right road. Noone can guarantee the MB will work but at the end of the day you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did your very best, whatever the outcome.

OOOH...did u say he was a military guy?

Doesnt having an affair with a married woman make him a security risk? How about exposing to his commanding officer?

yes it does pose a security risk. My WW is in the same classified world, so it impacts her too. Only reason I have not done that.

I plan on writing a letter to my in-laws and enclosing the Harley book Surviving and Affair so they understand why we got here and how we can recover.

Next question for all you veterans:

Do I tell my WW I am exposing her to her family? Do I give her any warning? Do I tell her after I've done it?

Or do I write the letters and be quiet about it.

TDVA...read posts from Faithinme....she also has a similar problem with exposure. It was posted to her that should this come to the notice of her superiors that she would need to agree to end the affair to keep her standing, him too. have a poke about on FIMs posts and see what you can find.

Send the letter and wait for the poop to hit the fan. No need to warn her...she will only give your double teh trouble.

The reason that your counsellor said u r not setting boundaries is simply because you are doing only the NICE bit of planA....The fact is that if you dont expose you arent doing PlanA at all but being treated like a doormat.

Thanks for the help.

Well, I did it. We didn't get a chance to talk yesterday evening, so I went with the letter. Left it in her car for her to read on the way to work. That way she can think about it all day without attacking me.

I'll give you the update after this evening.

In one sense it is a huge relief that I confronted her on this. On the other hand, I'm scared to death that I'm pushing her out the door.

mid day update.

WW called me to discuss afternoon and evening plans. I have softball, she's got to be home to handle dinner, etc. Actually a very good conversation.

I asked her about her day, told her how cute the kids were this morning, told her how my work was going, etc.

I have no idea what any of this means. Still scared to death, but glad I threw out my first boundary. Thanks to all for the help

someone has posted to u on my fog definitions thread...check it out:)

thanks. Yes, I'm working on the exposure part. The problem is I still respect my WW and know how important her family is to her. I am trying with all my heart to not have to embarass her and have this come out. Unfortunately, her actions dictate otherwise.

I have e-mail, phone number of OM, his family on the West Coast (I think ex-wife), also of his good friends on the West Coast.

I love the Internet! There is almost nothing you can't find with google!!

I also am preparing to expose to her familiy and my family. With each letter I'm going to send a copy of Surviving an Affair. I want everyone to realize there are reasons why this happens and that it is so complex and deep. I also want them to know I take my share of responsibility for creating an atmosphere in our marriage where our needs were not met.


BTW, I have started to throw out some boundaries. WW is going out of town to West Coast on Sunday. She is flying out early, renting her own car, and staying at a hotel by herself. Other people in group are flying out later and staying at a different hotel. I told her it bothered my that she was doing this and that I did not like it. Did not argue about it or attack her other than she said "I give you my word I'm going out there and will be alone", to which I replied - You have not given me any reason to believe you.

She made no comment about my letter referencing the text message.

I do plan on the kids and I making her breakfast in bed on Sunday morning before we go to the airport. I do want her to leave with good feelings about our house.

and know how important her family is to her
Well, obviously at least right now, it's not very important at all.

WW left me a voice mail yesterday regarding the note I left her about the text-message.

Here is what she said:

"The text-message was just a joke. Didn't mean anything by it. There is no forever. OM is going to be moving back to west coast shortly. Whatever I thought all along has been incorrect. She is contemplating separation and divorce to be by herself. There is no relationship."


So what do I do? Do I bring this up again and argue with her about it? Ignore it? I know this is fog babble. I know she is lying based upon cell phone records.

One thing I do have is taped voice mails from July from him to her. I have not shared those with her yet? Should I do that now? Leave a note in the car with the tape?

Help!

I'm realizing I should have put all my cards on the table first, then done Plan A. Right now I'm trying to do Plan A while still telling her about things I know about the other relationship.

I think it is confusing and making it harder for WW to feel any love in the house.

Exposure Letter to her family and my family. Please read and edit as you see fit:

To my family,

I have held off writing this letter for 3 months, hoping that things would change. However, I see no indications to lead me to that belief, so I must do this as a way to protect my family.

I have found out that since June, L is having an affair with someone she works with. His name is JN. His family is outside SD and he is out here in VA by himself. He is either divorced or separated with kids and is still in the military.

I found out about this the weekend I was at the K's house in VA and L flew to CA. That is the reason I was walking around in a daze. I had held off telling all of you out of respect for L. I know how much she values your opinions of her and wants your respect. I know how much she values family. However, there is nothing respectful about her actions over the last 4 months and her decisions are hurting our family. She alone must take responsibility for her decisions regarding this relationship with J and its impacts on K, P, and I, our extended families, and myself.

I only exposing this affair with the hopes that it will help it die a natural death and L and I can work at recovering and rebuilding our marriage. Exposure is the best way to end an affair as most affairs are built on fantasy and wishful thinking. I have been doing a lot of reading to understand why this has happened again, and why our marriage was in its current state. Among the books I’ve read are The Five Love Languages, His Needs/Her Needs, Love Busters, and the book I’ve enclosed for you to read – Surviving an Affair.

The reason I’ve included this book is because I want you to understand why L was unhappy and why an affair was possible. She had every right to be unhappy as I now realize I was not meeting her most basic, most important emotional needs. I take my share of responsibility for creating an environment at home where our key emotional needs were not being met by each other. My ignorance to my own needs and L's needs still upsets me. However, L alone must take responsibility for her decisions regarding this relationship with J and its impacts on K, P, I, our extended families, and myself.

Honestly, I wish I found these books four years ago. L and I recovered the first time, but we did not recover correctly. We did not really sit down and understand why it happened, and what really needed to be changed in our behaviors with each other. We just got into a lot of bad habits with regards to meeting each other’s needs and dealing with conflicts and difficult issues.

I have agreed with L that our marriage is in need of changes. I don’t think either of us was as happy as we’d like to be. I don’t want to go back to our old marriage. I want to learn from our past mistakes and build the fulfilling marriage we are both looking for.

I have started going to a counselor on my own to work through my own issues with my needs, my relationship with L, and how I handle conflicts. I can now identify times where I am falling back into my old ways, and am able to adjust course. It is awkward at first, but it is getting easier. Believe me, it is not a pleasant experience to look inside and see all those ghosts and skeletons.

I believe our family is the best foundation that can give both of us the strength and energy to make individual changes, work at our marriage and have the fulfilling marriage we both want and need. I believe the best happiness we could hope for is our kids and us is for us to be in a strong, loving marriage, raising them under one roof, but it also takes the most amounts of time and effort. --

I will admit there are times I question what am I doing. Is it worth the effort? Is it supposed to be this hard? But then I look into I’s eyes, hear P’s raspy voice, or watch K do a handstand and think about all the happiness and love they have, that they deserve, and that answers my questions.

I cannot imagine what L is feeling inside to think separation and divorce and J is her best option. I know she is hurting inside and I am sorry for her pain.

Love,

TD

I think it' s too long and too detailed for anyone except her parents and your parents.

Sending them the book? Nah. Doubt any of them will read it and they will simply think your trying to be an "armchair psychologist".
Also, remember that you should not try to "educate" others. It comes off as pretty condescending.

Simply tell them the facts. She's having an affair. You have learned/are learning a lot about relationships and have some books which help. You don't want a divorce and this is the reason for the letter, to end the affair as you marriage will not improve while it is going on.
You are working on changing any behaviors which are not good for relationships.


I suggest you leave out the following;
The reason I’ve included this book is because I want you to understand why L was unhappy and why an affair was possible. She had every right to be unhappy as I now realize I was not meeting her most basic, most important emotional needs. I take my share of responsibility for creating an environment at home where our key emotional needs were not being met by each other. My ignorance to my own needs and L's needs still upsets me.

Unless they have a bit more understanding of Marriage Builders/relationship knowledge, this will simply look like you created all teh problems and she was justified in doing what she is doing.
And sending them the book will not make them get "intereseted" in the subject. Leave the titles on so they can get them if they want.

<small>[ September 24, 2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Seems a little too long to me. Try and cut it by half. Also include a list of any evidence you have. Remember that your wife will deny this and say u r delusional!

thanks for the input. Actually her family thinks the world of me. They know she was a fault the first time. They know she has issues with insecurity. They are old-school work at the marriage kind of people. If we do separate I could see me and the kids being invited to the in-laws and my WW left out in the cold.


FOG UPDATE:

I have started trying to establish boundaries. I told my WW I didn't appreciate her taking an earlier flight on Sunday, traveling alone to the CA and getting out there early with her own rental car and separate hotel from the group.

She called me today to tell me she changed to the later flight. I thanked her and told her I appreciated it.

I think she is trying to get me to feel comfortable. I know she is still calling him multiple times during the day.

I'm all set to send an exposure letter to her family and mine. Also going to contact OM's ex-wife to see if they are separated, divorced or whatever. Also have e-mails for about 20 friends of theirs in CA. I do plan on exposing this to his friends and rock his world a little bit.

I planned on doing it next week while my WW was in CA. Now, I'm not so sure.

WW about to go out to West Coast for week for work. I believe OM will be out there waiting. I decided I had to tell her all I knew about existing relationship. She gave me her word that she would be out there alone. But also bought 5 new pairs of thong underwear for the trip.

To all you veterans. I know this letter is way too long, but I've been keeping this inside for 3 months as I tried Plan A without setting boundaries. Now that I'm doing Plan A with some boundaries, I hope this helps.

Please let me know if the letter is okay. Tone, wording, etc. I have put it in her suitcase with a photo album of pictures of us and the family.

I have no idea what to expect when she comes back on Thursday.

Here is the letter:

Dear L,

Thank you for leaving me a voice message regarding the note I left in your car. Under no circumstances could that text message be looked at as a joke. Regardless of your message, your actions over the last several months have dictated that you are having an affair with Jack. Emotional and physical affairs have no place in any marriage. I take my share of responsibility for creating an environment at home where our needs were not being met by each other. My ignorance to my own needs and your needs still upsets me. However, you alone must take responsibility for your decisions regarding this relationship with Jack and its impacts on K, P, I, our extended families, and myself.

I’ve been holding this in for three months, hoping it would go away. I’ve shed so many tears that the only way I can do this is when you are 3000 miles away. While you were traveling to California in July I listened to your saved voice mails at work. I heard all the two minute long voice mails from J that you had saved.

He was telling you he loved you on every message-- he enjoyed your kiss after you left his house one afternoon; you were together in mind, body, and soul; he kept checking his voice mails so he didn’t miss your calls; told you to page him - 1 for I love you, 2 for I love you and 3 for I love you; wrote a song about you and sang it while driving “that crazy picnic” etc.; that he was in California already, going to see his kids and looked forward to seeing you when you landed; he had to masturbate one Sunday thinking of you; to page him when you got to your hotel and he would leave the restaurant, pick you up and make love to you all night long; etc. I had avoided telling you this because again I was trying to avoid conflict and hoped we could be working this out together. Also, I know I wanted to believe this would go away and I could shut my brain down and try to forget what I heard.

Between his CD writings, your list of things that J does to make you feel good, and these voice mails there is no question what has been going on. I had held off on revealing this thinking (incorrectly) that avoiding this conflict could somehow be helpful. Again trying to avoid conflict by making things “right”. I cannot do that any longer and it does neither of us any good.

Your relationship and continued contact with J hurts me in ways you cannot imagine. I have been struggling with this hurt and I have done my best not to react to your blatant, hurtful actions.

I will admit there are times I question what am I doing. Is it worth the effort? Is it supposed to be this hard? But then I look into I’s eyes, hear P’s raspy voice, or watch K do a handstand and think about all the happiness and love they have, that they deserve, and that answers my questions.

I know we have different views of marriage and love and what that all means. I know right now you see no hope for us. But the beauty of marriage is for the other person to be there to support their spouse in the best of times and the worst of times. I have enough hope and love for the both of us to carry us through this difficult time. That is what I committed to you 11 years ago.


I will tell you that J and I are not fighting for you. I am fighting for the woman I used to know. The woman I fell in love with, married, and chose to build a family. The woman who cared about me, family, and others, and whose love and happiness was boundless. The woman who was a great wife, mother, daughter, sister, and friend. I know that woman would like to make some changes inside her and her life, and she needs and has the support of me and our family to do that.

I do not want a divorce, but the only way we can begin a recovery is for your relationship with J to end. I do not want our old marriage back. I want to be open and honest with you about the last 11 years so that we can learn from our past and utilize it to build a happy, healthy marriage and raise our three kids together. I am working on eliminating the behaviors that I know are not productive to a healthy marriage.

I said that staying with me and working at this doesn't sound very exciting or romantic. The more I thought the more I realized that rebuilding our marriage would be very exciting. As we grow together and learn to meet each other's needs it will be the most romantic relationship I could think of. And to do it while loving and raising three great kids and watching them all get taller than you tops it all off.

I want to be clear about what I have said: -- I believe our family is the best foundation that can give both of us the strength and energy to make individual changes, work at our marriage and have the fulfilling marriage we both want and need. I believe the best happiness we could all hope for is for our kids and us to be in a strong, loving marriage, raising them under one roof, but it also takes the most amounts of time and effort. --

I cannot imagine what you are feeling inside to think an affair, separation, and divorce is your best option and the best option for our family. I know you are hurting inside and I am sorry for your pain.

I will miss you this week and we will all welcome you with love and happiness on Thursday.

Love,

TD


P.S. I know I’m still not great at this conflict stuff. I should have done this in July when I first found out. Also, I know this letter is way too long so you probably have to read it 100 times like I have done for it to make any sense.

It is fine. It says what is in your heart and what you want....lets see how she reacts....

just to update:

WW sent me a quick text message today. I made it okay.. and I got your note.

I almost immediately responded out of habit, then realized I need to give her space and time.

Also, hit the jackpot last night. Spoke to OM's ex-W. We talked for 4 hours!

He had 4 A's with her over 14 years.
some history of domestic violence
uses his kids to get back at her
has a girlfriend on the west coast
Is totally into himself.

I have no idea if my wife will come back and try at our marriage, but I am scared for her. This guy is very smart, and takes advantage of women with his job and power. I know my WW is hurting, but I don't want her to get hurt by him.

Scary. Classic textbook of OM and history of A's, etc.

Plan A as best I can.

Is this the exposure letter, a Plan B letter or? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

TDVA, from your posts I perceive that you are itching to make gestures to your WW. Letters, big discussions etc. You need to " DO SOMETHING!"

I may be speaking out of turn here but sir, that is not sensible. Wise heads aren't lying when they suggest your WW is suffering from a temporary mental disorder or 'kidnapped by aliens'.

Your WW is UNABLE to rationalise with you logically right now, her emotions and calculations are all broken. Your sentient thought is not reciprocated by her.

Your gestures are falling on stony ground.

Detach yourself from it all. Don't do anything but efficiently police your boundaries and make life as happy for yourself (and your WW) as you can. Your words are wasted now, your genuine , consistent actions are what counts.

Don't send this letter TDVA. Don't send any letter unless you want to do a Plan A or a plan B letter.

I never told my FWW I was in 'plan A'. She wouldn't give a stuff at the time and 'the plans' are far more about the implementer than the recipient anyway.

I just concentrated on being a great dad to my kids, supportive of FWW OTHER than enabling the A, sucking up her fog ,spite and bullsh1t, praising any small efforts at being my lovely FWW once again..... and NEVER asking her to do A THING that required reasonableness or thought.

Its all really hard TDVA, but it WORKS and its the ONLY WAY to beat this stuff. I know you are desperate to involve your WW but she can't respond sensibly (even if she wanted to). CANNOT.

Withdraw friend, detach emotionally from the sitch and improve yourself by rote using Plan A template.

I truly wish I could bottle how clear plan A & Plan B are to me now. I have been in teh deepest sh1t imaginable but a properly adhered to plan A worked wonders for us. WONDERS. I KNOW its not instinctive but your instinct is wrong here, TDVA.


All blessings

Bob

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>