Actually, my comment about college age kids was more general - there seem to be many members here who seem to think that it is normal to throw your kids out as soon as they hit 18. Most of my daughter's peers ended up living at home after college.

Pepperband,

I know it must be different and much harder to have a child in residential treatment. I don't actually have any "rules" for my over 18 kids, although I have sometimes (probably often) given them advice, which they don't necessarily want - then again, drinking or drugs have never been an issue, so that just leaves minor things.

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

LINY - These are the wonder years. You wonder why you ever had them in the first place.

As a mom of 8, I have been thru it all. Caught daughter at 15 crawling thru the window at 4:00AM, coming home from sneaking out. Let's see, what else? Been through catching kids taking drugs, having sex, running away, and on and on.

It has not been easy. But through everything, it was the "rule of the roof". If they wanted to live under my roof, it was my way.

Now the kids have mostly moved out and are doing well. Although my youngest son went surfing last night, and his surfboard hit him in the face and his teeth popped through his face. So now he has five holes under his lips.

So quit whining. In the end they usually turn out fine, and become normal people at about 21.

Hi Liny...you are so far ahead of the game with regard to parenting I feel a bit silly even offerring advice...I feel presumptuous even. I'm not going to lecture about your home and your boundaries, you already know that...but I recall from my own teenagedom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> that the relationship that I had with my parents was ultimately a stronger influence on me than any threat they might make or even carry out. Your son is too old to be pulled forcibly off the path he is hurtling towards..I think the best that you can do for him now is to work on your relationship with him..build it strong, deep, and wide...and then never..ever..get in the way of the consequences of his choices hitting him square in the chest. Even if you and your wife have done everything "right" in raising him [a lofty dream, no?] he is still an individual who has a will as free as your own. If he insists on learning the hard way, pray that the lessons taught be merciless and swift so that he will learn sooner rather than later. It must be terribly difficult to watch your child fail. Stumble right out of the gates of adulthood and seem not to be even aware of it. Worry not, the awareness will come..and with it will come regrets...just love him and support him..be a safe place to fall [but don't pick up the tab].

There is a book..a very trite and oversimplistic book called Whale Done..it is really intended for managers..but hey, the principals still apply..maybe check it out?

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by Nellie1:

Pepperband,

I don't actually have any "rules" for my over 18 kids

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie! My son wants to come live with you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> a home with "no rules".... because living at your house....

he can play his music as loud as he wants, at any time, night or day...

he can smoke inside....

he won't have to tell you where he's going or what time he might return, so he can disappear for days without warning anyone....

he can come into the house at 3AM and turn on the TV and make noise....

he can have girls sleep over. in his bed ...

he can return stoned or high and pass out....

he can leave his stuff out all over the house....

he can have his friends call the house at any hour, even late at night or early in the morning

he can leave the lights on all the time....

he can leave food out in his room for as long as he likes....

he can leave wet towels on the hardwood floor....

he can "borrow" things from you without asking....

he can sleep all day and party all night....

he can swear as much as he'd like....

he can leave his dirty dishes on the table, the floor, or the patio for as long as he likes ....

he will not have to help clean anything.....

Yep! No rules is for sure where he'd like to live... when can he move in???

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Nellie.... "no rules" really ???not even one ??

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Dang! When can *I* move in, nellie?!?!? I don't want to play anymore!

OK. Responses. If they're a little "awkward" I have been inhaling bleach all day. (And I hit my last call already! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Nellie, all I know that when I was a kid (OMG!--I didn't just say "that" did I?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) there were expectations of my living arrangements. Because I had no clue on what I wanted to be when I grew up (still don't), the guilt was tremendous "wasting" my $$ and my parents $$ (as the main reason) that I moved out. Kids today (there I go again!) have very little respect in general. Not their "fault"--they're just practicing what was taught them--nothing. I'm *NOT* pointing fingers, but like the majority said, "You live under our roof, they're our rules. There's the door, just in case."

Pep...you are just *THE* expert at any reverse-babble to be dealt with! My "problem" is, I get too emotional.

believer. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now the kids have mostly moved out and are doing well. Although my youngest son went surfing last night, and his surfboard hit him in the face and his teeth popped through his face. So now he has five holes under his lips.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chicklets in one hand would be a definite er visit!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So quit whining. In the end they usually turn out fine, and become normal people at about 21.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just the mere fact you *gave birth* to *8* children, I should shut up! But do I haveta wait that long?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Noodle...very insightful...what brown has mentioned to me too. Again, I'm having difficulty finding the balance of "picking my fights" and "getting over it." Just tonight, while I was cleaning the new house, there was an "episode." Short version: busting my a$$ all week (took off) to get house ready; downstairs apt where S's will live (and pay rent); condition 1 is that they have to clean it before move in (10/15); youngest son has done nothing; found trampoline in one of the sheds; was in the process of putting it together when I went ballistic. Even my Mom who was watching my youngest D said "take it easy on him." Some words must've gotten through as both S's are still over there now cleaning. (Or maybe secretly putting together the trampoline! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Not sure how you say "I'm ahead of the game" but thanks--I think! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 12, 2004, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

Oy!!!!! I don't even know where to begin .... the mom's POV.

I love my family!!!!

I had to support 2 kids I had before my 19th B-day. I was responsible for my 2 "gifts from God". I had to "get right" real quick and grow up. I don't think the boys even realize the sacrifice I made (no whining here - I just did it!). Their lives made my life. I hold no resentment for that.

And then I married LINY. He's been an excellent "Dad" to all 4 of our children. He was 23 when he married *US*. (I don't think the boys even realize the sacrifice *WE* made (no whining here - We just did it!).

Now - We are willing to "help" them, but they have done nothing to "help" them with. They still expect for us to do it for them. They only "choose" to be adults when it suits them. I don't expect them to move out at 18 or 19 or even 20 - b/c they can't. However, we started telling them at 14 or 15 YO, you will want things that we cannot and will not help you do and get - you will need to make your own way. We will help you any way we can. Oh and yes, there are boundaries - they have outgrown them. I believe in "let go and let grow" (And maybe "get out!" after that).

The experience my H is having w/ our S's are "normal" and "age appropriate". (And I have seen and heard of worse). We will "grow from this as a "family", but in the mean time - there will be "growing pains". I just don't know when they will be "GROWN" (and we have 2 D's to look forward to raising - Oy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

It has been a cause of LBing and not fufilling EN's b/c of stress, finances, QT, etc. They are sucking the life out of *US* (LOL). Does anyone think they would notice if *WE* ran away ?!?!?

RIF90 - Yes, they need the Corps or a swift kick their arses!!! I think the younger S would get an allergic reaction to the sand fleas (or the authority). The older S would get himself shot in BT week 1. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The last I looked it was "The Few. The Proud. The Marines." Have they added "The Clueless"? And I don't think it's "First in ...when we get up at 2:00 pm ... Last out ...when we come home at 3:00 am" (LOL).

Nellie - They would enjoy living with you - as most of their friends households are run that way too. No Rules! We're all ADULTS! Blah! (no disrespect intended - it's not that easy) ("The grass is always greener over the septic tank" - Erma Bombeck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Pep and Believer - God bless you (nuff said) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This does explain alot about your responses and outlook on life. I love you guys!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I can't forget my friend FM - OY! OY! OY! You have a D (LOL). This is a whole new world!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> "They just don't get it" - LINY of MB.

To everyone - thank you for your support.

I think I'll start a new thread "Your favorite PARENTAL QUOTES" - My personal fav's are "Do I look like the 1st national bank?", "Does it say maid on my back?", "No I wasn't in the middle of doing anything!", and "I love you very much, I just don't like you right now!"

Brown

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by LINY:

Pep...you are just *THE* expert at any reverse-babble to be dealt with! My "problem" is, I get too emotional.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So.... this is something within your power to control. This is a GOOD thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In most conversations there is an obvious text, the subject. AND, there is a less obvious subtext, the underlying issue being explored via the subject.

At any time of your choosing, you can decide to take a stand on the issue and stop argueing the subject.

It is up to you to remain unemotional and think to yourself .... "LINY, what is the issue at hand beneath the subject?"

If you decide what the issue is for you, (do not try to decide what the other person's issue is, you are only responsible for your issue) then you can decide what your relationship to the issue is.

Let's say the discussion is about money. If you feel yourself becoming emotional and it is ruining your conversational momentum.... stop and think, "What issue concerns me right now?"

responsibility?
wastefulness?
priorities?
resources?
greed?
power?
equality?
authority?
respect?
ambition?

Once you decide what the real issue is for you about the subject (money), your emotionality is far lessened.... and sometimes you can stop the "Yes but...." rebuttals if you begin to uphold and support your issue rather than the subject.

I think many parents get into arguements with teens about some subject.... and the actual discussion (for the parent) is about respect for parental authority.

The minutia of the subject can be wildly out of control .... and the discussion usually deteriorates.... "You did this".... "Yes but, you did that!" .... the minutia avoids the bigger picture of the issue.

As a parent, the issue is often respect (or lack of) for parental authority. And argueing the minutia with your child errodes your authority! And doing this, a parent feels more and more disrespected, which creates the emotionality of self doubts, and that makes a parent angry and weak. Once your child has made you yell and lose control of yourself .... please be aware, your emotions feel angry and ashamed you have lost your position of authority.

The way not to yell and lose self control, is to find your underlying issue, and support it.... and not to pick at the minutia.

Pep

Oh I forgot.... I was taught this in family group therapy...

"Nevertheless ..... (state your issue) .... (refer to the subject) "

If the issue is money and how to spend it.

"I know you want the $200 jacket. Nevertheless .... my decision is this" {this is stating your authority} .... "we cannot afford it." {which refers to the subject}

The child complains, argues, whines, makes her demand......

you say ... "I understand you are upset. Nevertheless.... this is my decision. We cannot afford it."

and you do not discuss the minutia of the jacket, how many she already has, how many you have, why this style will be out of fashion in 2 months, why she doesn't need to follow every fashion trend..... all that is part of the subject, you stick to the issue.

Pep

<small>[ September 12, 2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

noodle. Hey! I just realized! You'll have to be "dealing" with this soon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> To any "new" mother, I always say, with the utmost sincerity and certainly respect: Enjoy them now!!!!! I loved and love just watching them go through their routines of exploring and just watching them grow. Literally, watching them grow. What a beautiful gifts we've received! As they get older, those moments are just so far and few between.

Pep...words of wisdom, once again. Thank you.
You know? I am a "new" manager at my job (for a year now) and have asked my peers (who will *completely* tell me the truth) about my progress. They say I am doing just fine. One of the criticisms that comes up quite frequently is, though, "Man, K you need to calm down!" This is after the issues are solved/worked on and I am "venting" to them.) I think I run a pretty good ship. (This is a whole 'nother issue that I'm, once again, *NOT* going to get into, though.) But the reason why I mention this, is I have 15 other "kids" I must take care of. I can do it with them, so why can't I perfect these same techniques with my real children?
I'm working on it--my impulsive trait sometimes takes over and says, "'Get it'--NOW!"

Coming full circle with the topic of the thread--I just don't want any more "obstacles"--and I don't mean the kids, I mean the lids' issues-- preventing brown and I from moving in the right direction.

Thanks all!

<small>[ September 12, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

Liny,

Our oldest is 6..and already the foul stench of "attitude" is on the menu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> meh..one battle at a time. I'll get this whale eaten eventually.

--Noodle

OOOOHHHHH....Blubber! Where's Orchid and Nik when we need recipes?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LINY -

I only gave birth to two of the kids. The others are my step-children, and their two sisters. So I have lots of experience raising teens.

I do want to tell you that it was not easy, and we were not a TV family. Our time together included the dining table being broken during Bible study one night when my husband and stepson had a "disagreement", a wrestling match in the middle of the street between my son and husband (this was on the way to school).

One day I came home from work tired and asked my youngest son to take out the trash. He said "Mom, I am too tired. Do you know how hard it is to paddle a surfboard for hours in those huge waves?"
And he was completely serious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But they all came out just fine. Yours will too.

Along with brown's suggestion about parents' quotes, I think we should start one about teens' quotes--that one would be up there!

~LOL~ Believer! (surfing fatigue.... poor baby)

One day son asked for "lunch money".... which I knew was being spent on cigs....

so I said "No money. I will pack your lunch if you like."

the arguements poured out of his mouth ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> what a lousy mother I am coz I don't care if he starves.... why did I adopt him if I wasn't going to feed him? .... I am not his "real mother" anyway.... (always a last ditch effort to pry guilt out of me and weaken me) .... Believer, I am sure you heard that one too!

So, angry as hell .... son goes to the freezer and picks out an entire frozen chicken and slams it into his backpack.... all the while watching me for a reaction...

I say .... nothing.... and go about my business .... silently praying he keep that chicken in his backpack long enough for the thawing juices to run doen his butt and down his pants legs..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Unfortunately .... he did a re-think of the situation while waiting for the bus, and came back inside and threw the chicken back into the freezer.

I said ..... nothing.... but I was dying with laughter inside.

I recently spoke to him about this memory... and know what? he completely forgot all about that day! amazing

Pep

LINY

that is so natural with your own kids I think.

I always have to remind myself that mine were not recruits who had to jump around the 'old man' because I was hard arsed SOB...lol

Of course that never relly worked with my daughter after she learnt to talk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now if aany of you ladies have ANY ideas on how to stop your 17 yr old D going out with LOSERS until freaking near 2.00 am in the morning I'm holding my breath in anticipation..please???

Mum says she has 'talked' to her & its all ok , what does that mean????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Is this one of those things Dads dont want to hear????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh dear, aussie....can't wait! (D10, D2)!!!!

Pep--LMAO!!!!! I wonder if he would have shared with his friends!

Aussie - The battles between the boys and my husband were NOTHING compared to the battles between him and his daughter. YIKES! They could hardly be in the same room together.

And my husband was not at all shy about talking to her loser boyfriends. He showed up at one "party house" and let the guys know that his daughter was only 17, and if they wanted to stay out of jail they better stay away.

Another of her boyfriends shoved her against the wall. He had a very nice customized car that he was very proud of. My husband went to his house and let him know if he ever saw or heard about him again with daughter, that "something" would happen to his beloved car. Vandals were likely to take a baseball bat to it.

Now daughter and husband are very, very, close and they laugh about the old days.

OK, now I don't want to turn this thread into a b1tch-fest, however, let me give another example of his complete disregard and disrespect.

After he came back home, the phone calls of course started coming again. Most of the kids were OK and polite (phone etiquette is a HUGE pet peeve of mine!), but I just can not tolerate people calling and not leaving messages. (Yeah, I know--a bit AR, but...) So, I get this call one day at about 11:30 (pm). I answer and the other person hangs up. Whatever. The next day...2(am) in the morning. Same thing. I *69--an area code I don't know. Next night, about 12 (am). Can you guess? So I research the area code--turns out to be a fairly ne NYC area code. So I said, WTF. I was that pissed. I called back and left a message on an unnamed cell, which went something like this: "I don't know who this is or why you are calling my number everyday at all hours of the night. Do me a favor the next time you call my number leave a f@#$%ing messageor have the ba11s to have the common decency to say 'sorry, I've been trying to contact someone else." Something like that. 15 minutes later, the little $hit calls me back and once again hangs up on me! I was turning several shades of red. (I checked the mirror!) The next day I confronted both S' and asked if they knew this #--youngest S said this was so and so's name. I 'said' something to the effect of, "Tell that little pr1ck of a friend of yours to never call this f#$%ing house again. I don't want to hear about him, have him call, or don't want him anywhere near my house!"
Last week, S asked if he could take the phone in his bedroom as he was expecting a call. I asked who, he said so and so. I said something to the effect of, "Did you not hear what I told you about him last time? WTF? You want to call him? Certainly. This time be sure you tell him not to call my home ever."
Today. I see three of S' friends go into my house (I was cleaning the new one) and S comes over. Asks if he could do whatever. As he was walking away, I asked, "Oh, BTW, who's here?" So he says the first two. I said, "And?" Then said so and so. (Calmly this time--very calmly) I said "And X, this is why I say you completely disrespect me. You just slapped me in the face without raising your hand." And brown and I were playing tag team--trying oh so desperately to show him this.

Just another example--not really trying to whine. Just that, everyday, brown and I say, "OK...what's it going to be today?" It really is something everyday.

Vent over.

believer...I know your H is being a real a$$, but, that was really cool what he did. (Sounds like something I would do!) And with two older brothers, I think my D's will be well protected! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LINY, sorry haven't read all the thread just down to where Pep stepped in with her story. I will go back and read it all because it is very relevant to our son.

He is 26 years old <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> dropped out of school when he was 14 and has been hanging around us ever since. He left home for 2 years but came back last year. He is a cause of a great deal of friction in our house. He is a very good person but totally unmotivated apart from his music. He contributes NOTHING to our household in the way of money or help around the place. Boy, do we need to set some boundaries. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Daughter (24) on the other hand held down a part time job while going to college, graduated with a good degree, has a very good job and moved out of home last year. How can two kids with the same parents be SO different.

Anyway, I'm going to read the thread completely now.

Jen

<small>[ September 12, 2004, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>