So the sparrow called to tell me she's not coming. Not enough time, she says. She suggested we get together this week and talk about how to divide things up, then she could come over next Saturday to do it.

I should have said okay.

Instead, I told her again that I'm confused about things, because she's sent me a legal document that says one thing, and now she's wanting to do it another way...

Eventually, I said "I could have had a garage sale and sold all your clothes two months ago." Cheap, easy. Dumb.

She became angry. I said, "You know sparrow, being angry is very easy. You always feel justified, no matter how wrong you are. So go ahead and get angry if it makes you feel like you don't have to listen to the truth."

I said, "I'm the one who has reason to be angry. AFTER you had abandoned me, you came back secretly, brought a man into our house, and had sex with him in our bed. You have created a new way of life for yourself that is based on betrayal, adultery, and destruction. Is this something you can be proud of?"

I asked her what has she done that can be admired in the last five months. I asked her what she thought of a world where you have to hurt people and damage their lives in order to find your version of happiness. Silence.

I went on a bit more, and she said she didn't want to have this conversation, that it was too emotional.

I said, "Why can't you answer those questions I've asked?" She said "I don't know." I said "Well maybe you should figure out some of the answers before you take all these drastic actions. Maybe you need to figure things out a little more before you continue on a path that you can't even figure out why you're taking or whether it's a good idea."

She said something snotty about me knowing everything. I said, "I don't deserve that. I am offering you a chance to give me answers to these questions, and it isn't my fault that you can't answer them. They're simple questions."

She acted confused about the stuff about finding happiness by hurting people. I said, "Sparrow, this is not rocket science. It's perfectly rational stuff I'm pointing out. And for some reason it makes no sense to you at all. Don't you wonder why?"

I told her that by following through on what she's doing, she is defining herself through nasty, evil deeds. I told her that if she continues, she will live the rest of her life with the knowledge that she willfully destroyed the lives of several people. I said, "Sparrow, if you define yourself and your happiness based on who you are sleeping with, if you believe that love is about being consumed with another person, you have a very mixed up idea of what love is about. If you think that real love requires causing all this pain and anguish, there is something wrong with you."

I psychoanalyzed her. I said she is afraid of being abandoned. I said I wondered if she's ever made peace with her father. I wondered what makes her cling so tightly and then sabotage her relationships. She said, "I don't need to be psychoanalyzed." Fair enough. I said, "Sparrow, I'm saying all this to you because I love you, and I hate to watch you fall. It kills me to witness it."

Finally, I asked her stillseeking's question. I said, "Why do you fight to take a father away from his children?"

"I have to go," she said.

And that was that.

I did not say my peace yesterday. I don't care if this makes her hate me. She needed to hear the truth from me, and by god she did.

If I hadn't said this now, I'd always wonder if I should have.

Now I've said my peace. Let the chips fall.

GC

Hi GC,

Well,I'm sorry you had to go through that with your WW but I can certainly sympathize with wanting to get things off your chest.Unfortunately,I am sure all she heard was you controlling her,trying to advise her and making her feel bad.It's all true what you said but you know in a WS's eyes,they see the horizon very differently.

In the future,I would not agree to seeing her at all.This business about her getting together with you,picking up her stuff,talking about divisions.Nope.That doesn't fly.She is only going to hurt you and you are only going to get hurt by being near her,interacting with her and trying to get her to see your side of things which will invariably happen again.

Tell her to make a list,you review it and agree or disagree to divisions.Anything you have that she needs she can pick it up outside at the end of the drive or in the garage.She does not need to be inside the home anymore.

Wouldn't that just be lovely,she is involved with another man,your marriage is just about over,and she wants to saunter over,chit chat about dividing property all in the same home where she betrayed you and soiled your home for her selfish sexual purposes(by the way,I must have missed this post from you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )Gross.

If I were you,I would stay 300 feet away from WS at all times.If I could I would but my dear philandering husband still has to live here until he can get a new job and move away.Help me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

Graycloud,

There comes a time in every BS life that you need to say what's on your mind & express how badly they've hurt you. Not only does sometimes, not always, but sometimes make the WS think, but it makes you feel good to get it off your chest to the person directly who hurt you. I applaud you for standing up for yourself & telling her what you think.

I remember when I totally let loose on my H about a few weeks b4 he came home. I had had just about enough of the way I was being treated & him sitting on top of that fence, not sure what he was going to do. He didn't want a D, he didn't want to reconcile, what exactly did he want to do? And my C told me that if I pushed him one way, he was going to fall the opposite way. Natural occurrence. If you push, they'll fall the opposite direction. But I had had it. I couldn't take anymore. So I let him know in no uncertain terms that what he was doing was destroying everyone around him and he needed to make a decision. He reacted pretty much the same way your W did & I was so scared that I had just wrecked any chance of him ever coming home. All he could say to me was, "I think I need to go home & pray about it." What?! This man, the man who turned away from God, thinking God is the one who directed him to leave in the first place? I couldn't believe it!

Then he starts coming around more, laughing more, staying here longer & spending nights on the couch. A few weeks later, he wanted to come back home & make things work. And he's been home ever since & we're working through our recovery. So, in my case, maybe it was needed. Maybe, just maybe, he cared about me more than he thought he did. Maybe it opened his eyes to see how much hurt was actually there & he didn't want to go down that path anymore.

Now, he's happy he decided to give it another try b/c now he has the M he's always wanted & all it took was for me to say, Enough! I'm a human being & I DON'T deserve to be treated this way! I can't be friends w/you. You want to part as friends & I need time to heal & get my life together b4 I can ever be there 4 you the way you want me to be. I needed to walk away from him in order 4 him to see that I meant more to him than what he realized. He indeed missed his family. He indeed missed my support. He indeed missed the R we shared.

So did you do a bad thing? In my opinion, NO. You did what you HAD to do 4 YOU.

Love in Christ,
Y

Losing it? I'd hardly call a frank discussion regarding your perceptions of her chosen life direction and the personal consequences of her actions losing it. If you have accurately relayed your discussion I can hardly pick out any disrespect there. You even communicated your love.
Sounded fairly eloquent and insightful to me.

So what now? Stay in plan A and keep sending the white doves? Or.... A short period of it and Plan B?

I just don't want to see things degrade to some serious name-calling and really damaging dialogue that threatens all the good work you've done so far.

Thanks, everybody.

My portrayal of the conversation is accurate. I didn't say anything to hurt her, except the dumb remark about having a garage sale to get rid of her clothes. I was tempted. Something I found out from car4love - at the very beginning, OM gave the sparrow a painting. He said, "It's called 'Spring', because you are my spring."

Car4love told me yesterday that she named the painting.

I wanted to tell sparrow that, but I thought it would be gratuitous, so I didn't tell her.

O, you're probably right. Probably all she'll take away from this is how it made her feel, not what I said.

But JohnH the other day pointed out that the things I was doing weren't working, and maybe it was time to do something different. So I did.

These thoughts have been banging on the walls of my mind, screaming to be shared with the sparrow. I tried to give her a chance to figure them out on her own. I tried to be gentle and let her find the truth. But she wasn't finding it, and time is running out. So I gave it to her directly.

I don't feel much hope about any good coming of this, but I had to get it off my chest.

GC

I'm glad you got this off your chest, like I said yesterday I think this stuff needed to be said. Do you have plans for tonight? You need to get out of the house and do something fun.

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: kloe72 ]</small>

I think the reason you went off on her was because you were so terribly disappointed that she wasn't coming. Because you had planned, cleaned and looked forward to seeing her, for her seeing you.

That is why ABHORE this crap. It is the crushing disappointments over and over again, when the hours in between that is all you wait for, think of, and then THIS!

She knows nothing of this, of what goes on in your head endlessly, and wouldn't care if she did, but still it hurts so badly.

I am glad you spoke your truth, even if it came from hurt and disappointment. What you said is still the truth.

I am so sorry Gray.

I'm not promoting plan B to you in your sitch, but this is why plan B is needed, to put an end to this very type of misery for the BS.

I'm making up for the things I could have said gently and calmly, plan A style, during the early days of the A if she'd stuck around.

You're right. I was very disappointed. I reacted emotionally and did not entirely keep my head. But I didn't say anything cruel. I'm going to send her the gift I'd planned to give her today, and a little note saying I'm sorry our conversation was hard on you.

A few more white doves...

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I'm making up for the things I could have said gently and calmly, plan A style, during the early days of the A if she'd stuck around.

You're right. I was very disappointed. I reacted emotionally and did not entirely keep my head. But I didn't say anything cruel. I'm going to send her the gift I'd planned to give her today, and a little note saying I'm sorry our conversation was hard on you.

A few more white doves...

GC </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you sorry?

I am not sorry you said those things....

Truth can hurt....

"The biopsy came back showing malignant cells. You have cancer."

You gave Sparrow the diagnosis.

You did not give her this disease . You named it, spoken clearly and from the heart. Not to shame her, but to clear her eyes as to where she is headed if she ignores the truth. She selected the disease of adultery like a smoker lighting up accepts the cancer risk.

Are you REALLY sorry you said these things? or.... are you REALLY sorry that what you said to her is ..... the painful awful truth?

Pep

Graycloud,

You said a lot of things taking a position of total honesty. Call it what you may but "losing it" would not be my description of what happened.

I agree with 10Girl( how are you?)that WW's interpretation was probably 180 from yours, radical unemotional honesty can never truly hurt a relationship.

Graycloud...

I've never posted to you before, but have followed your thread. You had your share of ups and downs, my man!

You're doing awesome. She may not "hear" the truth you spoke to her now, but she WILL understand it later (Like Hans and Frans say (SNL) "Hear me now, understand me LATER).

Another thing I heard (in church, no less) is "the truth is the truth no matter who says it".

Words to live by, for sure. It doesn' matter if you or someone else said these things to her, they are still the truth. Sparrow still can't UNDERSTAND them now, tho.

The fact that you said these things without being angry or vicious, also matters A LOT!

Like I was told on this very site, you have only set your boundaries. Very clearly. Line in the sand.

Have her make that list, and then you agree or disagree. And put her things where she can get them. This is the choice she has to live with.

Did you know that the sun shining behind grayclouds makes them look darker? But, that doesn't mean the sun ISN'T shining!

Step aside, Graycloud. Let that sun shine on YOU. (isn't it sooo much easier to give someone ELSE advice that you can't seem to take for yourself? Easy for me to say!)

K72172

graycloud -

I have done the same thing. So don't worry about it. I was much worse than you. I told OW to get off her back and start taking care of her daughter. Told WH that I have no respect for him -he has no respect, blah, blah, blah. It made me feel great.

Since then he is getting a little less foggy.

Gray

dont think you lost it at all. Yes you told her a lot of things she didn't want to hear
That she was so silent while you said the important things probably means it hit home, try as she might to not hear it.
The other stuff about psychoanalyzing her was water off a ducks back, the first piece you said to her when she started to attack you, yes I think it hit home.
I'm not sure you should aplogize at all, it may be more harmful than not at this time. She is mostly still there in the fog by the sound of it.
I have an idea that as the fog lifts & she finds herself in deep water, even if it was boiling water she would not admit to you she was wrong. My guess is that one day you will find out she is living elsewhere &/or the OM has gone.
Maybe then you will have an opportunity to discuss all of it in detail.
But you need to do what is good for you now.
I have to say that the idea of no further contact is probably a good one, you are just needlessly giving yourself pain when you meet her now.
Hope you can find some peace & happiness.

<small>[ September 11, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: aussie2 ]</small>

GC,
I agree, these are things you would've said much earlier if she hadn't turned and run. Please don't beat yourself up for saying the truth. It may take time for the truth to sink in.

I'm not sorry for anything I said. Only sorry it had to be said. Or rather than sorry, I should say I'm saddened by having had to say it.

She was very quiet during most of my screed. At one point I stopped talking, and the other end of the line was dead quiet for I bet ten seconds. I thought she'd hung up. I waited, waited, waited. Finally she spoke again.

This was the classic pursuit-and-withdrawal scenario. I have to go, I don't want to have this conversation right now, blah blah blah. But she didn't hang up. She could have hung up any time.

I don't know a good way to thank you fine people. I haven't been very helpful to others on this board for a couple of weeks now; just too wrapped up in my own mess. I'll try to do better, assuming my thoughts are useful some of the time.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I'm not sorry for anything I said. Only sorry it had to be said. Or rather than sorry, I should say I'm saddened by having had to say it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TRUE!
That's how I felt last night talking to my W. I felt like crap that I had to have yet another discussion about OM. I'm passed tired of having his name or references to him being brought up in my home. WHY the heck do I have to reason with you regarding writing a letter of no contact if you are committed to our M and have agreed to NO CONTACT??

It's very sad indeed.

In your situation, I'm glad you expressed your feelings and communicated it in a non-threatening way. Your are so right, she could have hung up the phone at any time. That might mean something as far as what's going thru her mind. Hmmmm. Could there be a little hope?

Hey Graycloud!

I've found that just getting differing points of view can really help you think.

We're all kind of wrapped up in our own messes here. These kinds of situations....I mean, seriously! how can we even concentrate on anythin else!!!!

But every once in a while, we look at someone else's mess, and have a little bit of light to shed on their sitch. Just from our own messy experience.

I have always been one to learn from others experience. You have plenty to share.

I like your intestinal fortitude! Just reading how you handle your problems is an inspiration to me and others.

And seeing how others have wavered, helps me know that I'm not alone.

I'm not the dullest knife in the drawer....

not the dimmest light bulb... not the dullest crayon....

See where I'm coming from?

(((((GC))))))

K

gc:

I just saw this. Pep was RIGHT ON (do people talk like that these days?).

Your W split so fast after the A started and got on this fast track 2 DV you, and has been "plan Bing you" precisely because she couldn't face the truth of what she was doing. And she NEEDED 2 hear it from you.

I think she didn't hang up because she can't 2uite let go - or your delivery wasn't what she "wanted" so that she could feel less guilty about her guilty behavior, and she was hoping for a handle that would allow her 2 steer the conversation in a direction more 2 her liking.

You didn't bite that particular worm (and not because it wasn't sprayed with WD-40... ...'nother story!) and so she finally did have 2 "go."

And so she went back 2 her artificial shell, where she'll stay until she grows the hell up and realizes it's not real.

I think that what you said may have planted some seeds. They may take a while 2 germinate, but unless she's a throwback 2 our reptilian ancestors from the early Triassic, her conscience will be triggered at some point and she'll start 2 wake.

If you do get oppor2nities for conversations like that again, by all means seize them.

-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks, 2long. I don't know what will happen now. She wants her things, but she has to either go through me to get them or bust into the house and swipe them.

It's going to be her call.

If the dude remembers to bring it, I'm getting the wedding video tonight. Total rough footage, but something I want to give the sparrow.

I had a gift for her on Saturday, but now I think I'll keep it for myself and just send her a card.

GC

Another thing, about planting seeds.

I thought I did a very good job of planting seeds the other times I spoke to her. She almost told me so. She thanked me for helping her understand what's happening and agreed she had a lot to think about. But immediately after each of those occasions, she created a drama that put more distance between us.

Now she's got nothing left she can do to blow the seeds away. She's all out of ammunition.

I don't expect her back. I dread the possibility a little. Of course I would try to recover. But most of the time, I just can't see her doing it. Whenever she's tempted by the thought, she probably thinks, It's too late; I blew it.

O-kay then sparrow, fly fly.

GC