FM,
There is honor in always doing the right thing, regardless of the reaction or results.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by FamilyMatters:


I was that guy, that GREAT HERO RESCUE THE DAMSEL, BRAVE THE FIRE, SCALE THE CASTLE FOR THE FAIR MAIDEN TYPE OF AN IDIOT!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quoting from the book

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But I have counseled many young men to break up with the woman they were dating because they had made her their life. She was the sun of his universe, around which he orbited. A man needs a much bigger orbit than a woman. He needs a mission, a life purpose, and he needs to know his name. Only then is he fit for a woman, for only then does he have something to invite her into.

I have seen far too many young men commit a kind of emotional promiscuity with a young woman. He will persue her, not to offer her his strength but to drink from her beauty, to be affirmed by her and feel like a man.

When we feel the pull toward the golden-haired woman, we must recognize that something deeper is at play. As Bly says, [from Iron John]

"What does it mean when a man falls in love with a radient face across the room? It means that he has some soul work to do. His soul is the issue. Instead of pursuing the woman and trying to get her alone ... he needs to go alone himself, perhaps to a mountain cabin, for three months, write poetry, canoe down a river, and dream. That would save some women a lot of trouble"

~~~~~~~~

Pep

Very interesting follow up. I'm curious now. Before just angry. Hmmm.

I might check it out. It has merit, but, in the brief description originally posted, it doesn't identify how much a man doing a plan a to a ww is really a knight in God's armor. At least, that is my take on the passive stance I took on my wife's a.

As far as men, hmmm...gosh, who really knows what the heck we want. At times, I think I know, then, my wife changes her mood on me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TTSi:
<strong> FM,
There is honor in always doing the right thing, regardless of the reaction or results. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you TTSi. I know in my heart my intentions were noble and true, but life does have a way of getting in the way. Being a Hero is it's own reward as is behaving honorably in the face of challenges.

Pep this is an excellent topic, if my W returns to me whole-heartedly one day maybe I can regain my heroic stature? The downside to storming the castle is you may began to identify with your ability to perform heroic deeds. I am at my best reading my S a bedtime story or having a heart to heart discussion on with my teenage D about R's, Love and boys. This is true heroism and the only form of sacrifice I am capable of these days. Hopefully even if I end up divorced, I'll still have a few miraculous acts left in me.

Pep this is an excellent topic, if my W returns to me whole-heartedly one day maybe I can regain my heroic stature?

Sorry if you misunderstand... RIGHT NOW, you ARE the hero in your own life .... not necessarily via your WW's opinion of you, but by your relationship with God.


The downside to storming the castle is you may began to identify with your ability to perform heroic deeds. I am at my best reading my S a bedtime story or having a heart to heart discussion on with my teenage D about R's, Love and boys. This is true heroism and the only form of sacrifice I am capable of these days.

Exactly describes why you ARE the hero in your own story. Your heroism is love .... isn't that the biggest risk of all?

Hopefully even if I end up divorced, I'll still have a few miraculous acts left in me.

I have no doubt about that.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by FamilyMatters:


I was that guy, that GREAT HERO RESCUE THE DAMSEL, BRAVE THE FIRE, SCALE THE CASTLE FOR THE FAIR MAIDEN TYPE OF AN IDIOT!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quoting from the book

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But I have counseled many young men to break up with the woman they were dating because they had made her their life. She was the sun of his universe, around which he orbited. A man needs a much bigger orbit than a woman. He needs a mission, a life purpose, and he needs to know his name. Only then is he fit for a woman, for only then does he have something to invite her into.

I have seen far too many young men commit a kind of emotional promiscuity with a young woman. He will persue her, not to offer her his strength but to drink from her beauty, to be affirmed by her and feel like a man.

When we feel the pull toward the golden-haired woman, we must recognize that something deeper is at play. As Bly says, [from Iron John]

"What does it mean when a man falls in love with a radient face across the room? It means that he has some soul work to do. His soul is the issue. Instead of pursuing the woman and trying to get her alone ... he needs to go alone himself, perhaps to a mountain cabin, for three months, write poetry, canoe down a river, and dream. That would save some women a lot of trouble"

~~~~~~~~

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Touche'

Shouldn't we all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And women should not live in fairytales but real life as well. BUT if this were the case many of us would not have been born, because by the time you become wise enough to comprehend such matters of the heart your what 30?

Hindsight is 20/20. I wonder how old the author of this book is? I'd guess he isn't 17 and a senior in highschool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

besides my tales of heroism and love make great stories to tell my friends while I deaden my angst with samuel adams or a vodka and tonic...ohh I was once SPRY for love, now I'm just SPRY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by RookKev:

how much a man doing a plan a to a ww is really a knight in God's armor. At least, that is my take on the passive stance I took on my wife's a.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A is NOT passive! It is an aggressive charge on the affair battlefield! An aggressive charge made without expectation of reward! Very brave. Very risky.

Pep

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hero's saving the distressed maiden from the depths of the pit?!?!? I am not sure if the “hero” in real life survives long after the honeymoon. Real life settles in and the two normally become a balancing act for the other spouse. I would like to think I brought my FWW into a better world but we both found out, my strength overcame her weakness and her strength balanced out my weakness and flaws.

So many issues have been discussed on this thread and I don’t quite have a handle on what the real issue is. Is it fair that we toil till we bleed for our spouse and another person steps in and scores with our spouses and hasn’t even broke a sweat for them in the real world. Absolutely not! Our weak spouses have let us down and the reason they give us is we fell short as BS’S so it was our fault. How dare the WS’s accept responsibility for their selfish actions without blaming us for not filling an EN.

I took full blame early on for not filling my FWW’s EN’s and it gained me nothing. The WS’s rewrite the history of our marriages and we have to say that’s right, we caused their affairs. On the other hand, something was missing and emptiness was created and Mr. or Mrs. Wonderful stepped into fill our shoes. I was a busy working a ton of hours trying to support the family and build a future for us together and I was punished for it. We all have legitimate reasons to be shell-shocked since we have been wronged by our WS’s. On the other hand, are we better to have loved and lost than not loved at all? We all have to answer that question based on our own situations. My FWW let me down hard but I probably disappointed her time and time again and that let her down.

I watch Hour of Power with Robert Schuller on Sunday Mornings and have for 25 years and the guest speaker last Sunday wrote the Words that Mother Theresa had on her office walls for 30 years and it might be the answer to this entire thread and debate. Would we do it again knowing what we know today? Read the words and maybe it will help you decide.


ANYWAY

People are unreasonable, illogical and self-centered, Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives, Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies, Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow, Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable, Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spent years building may be destroyed overnight, Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack you when you help them, Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you’ll get disparaged and ridiculed, Give the world the best you've got anyway.

Adapted from the book "A Simple Path" by Mother Teresa of Calcutta

Now here is one I am adding:

Even if you dedicate your whole life to your spouse you love, he or she may betray you, Dedicate your whole life and love your spouse anyway.

TooSoon

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by boobyprize:


Also true! Some men hold back their emotions. They never really tell you what or how they are feeling. They leave it to you to guess what they are feeling, you should know they love you, they shouldn't have to say it or show it.

My husband never told me he loved me and would never be affectionate and he could take or leave sex, mostly leave it because there was always a TV program to watch or he had to get some sleep. So yeah, the "starving" wife is something I can relate to easily, I lived that for 20 years.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quoting from the book....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm like him too -- a true son of Abraham. I mentioned that the early years of our life were good ones -- but that's not the full story. I also had an affair -- with my work. I married my wife without ever resolving or even knowing the deeper questions of my own soul.

Suddenly, the day after our wedding, I am faced with the reality that I now have this woman as my constant companion and I have no idea what it really means to love her, nor if I have whatever it is she needs from me. What if I offer her all I have as a man and it is not enough? That's a risk I was not willing to take. But I knew I had what it took at the theater, and so slowly I began to spend more and more time there. Late nights, weekends, eventually every waking moment. I was hiding, like Adam, running from the fact that my strength was being called for and I really doubted I had any.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pep

The book brings up porn as a matter of fact!

quoting

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most men want the maiden without any sort of cost to themselves. They want all the joys of the beauty without any of the woes of the battle. This is the sinister nature of pornography -- enjoying the woman at her expense. Pornography is what happends when a man insists on being energized by a woman, he uses her to get a feeling that he is a man. It is a false strength, as I've said, because it depends on an outside source rather than emanating from deep within his center. And it is the paragon of selfishness. He offers nothing and takes everything.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pep

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

PS.I've been slaughtered on here every times I've dared to raise a little gorilla dust in support for my M. * ahem *

I have always defended my W and F from external attack, very forcefully. Its the INTERNAL confrontation I've never deat with. the armourgets in the way when you're sat over breakfast coffee trying to negotiate why WW shouldn't go away fifth weekend in a row to a sport she loves ...selfishly....when " Theyre your kids too, YOU look after 'em".

Knight heroism's one thing, but not everything for some women it seems.

Pep, I’ve just read this thread and I just want to say, I LOVE the following part of the quote from you first post:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>There is something mythic in the way that a man is with a woman. Our sexuality offers a parable of amazing depth when it comes to being masculine and feminine. The man comes to offer his strength and the woman invites the man into herself, an act that requires courage and vulnerability and selflessness for both of them. Notice first that if the man will not rise to the occasion, nothing will happen. He must move, his strength must swell before he can enter her. But neither will the love consummate unless the woman opens herself in stunning vulnerability. When both are living as they were meant to live, the man enters the woman and offers her his strength. He spills himself there, in her, for her, she draws him in, embraces and envelops him. When all is over, he is spent, but ah, what a sweet death it is.

And that is how life is created. The beauty of a woman arouses a man to play the man, the strength of a man, offered tenderly to his woman, allows her to be beautiful, it brings life to her and to many.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is SO beautifully and wonderfully said and written…and I believe this is the real & deep meaning of sex in marriage and how God created it. And this is how sex between a man and his wife is supposed to be: Clean, neat, deep & meaningful… I believe “making love” is one of the highest form of intimacy a man and woman can reach physically, emotionally & spiritually. But what happen in this world we are living in? People get influenced by Satan and use this beautiful act which is suppose to take place between one woman and one man in marriage and reduce it to something sinful, cheap and ugly by practicing sex outside marriage, adultery, sexual abuse, rape etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Pepper,

I love this thread, and I am going to have to check out this book.

We all have a different idea of what a hero is. For me, a man who 'fights' for me isn't necessarily fighting an external force. He is pushing himself to be honest and demonstrative even when it is difficult. After D-Day, I have longed to hear my H say, 'I'll do whatever it takes to fix this.' That would be a hero in my eyes. Instead DH is hesitant and avoids the issue because it is so uncomfortable to be intimate.

I may get slammed for this post, but what the heck.

Sometimes I feel like women expect much more out of men than vice versa.

We are supposed to be sensitive yet tough.

A fighter, but also a lover.

A provider, but not work too much.

Give constant affection, but not expect sex too much.

Give women equal treatment, but special treatment at the same time.

Listen endlessly, but not to drag our wives down with our own problems.

Go easy on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Originally posted by Suzet*:
This is SO beautifully and wonderfully said and written…and I believe this is the real & deep meaning of sex in marriage and how God created it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too!!!

Suzet* .... I first heard about htis book on this forum. Maybe a year ago. It was mentioned on a thread started by a WH (name something like madlytruelydeeply ... but there were several names similar, so I am not exactly sure) The WH said he was suggested he should read this book by OW's HUSBAND!

Well.... that made me curious.... so I looked up the book.... and eventually I spotted it in the bookstore one day, and bought it for Mr. Pep as a gift.

My H read the book and raved.

Soooooo, one of our recovery techniques for quality time together ... is nighttime reading aloud.

My H just finished reading this book to me a few nights ago.

The passage you like so much ... took my breath away.

We made love later, and I cried during the lovemaking .... from soul overflowing gratitude and love fullfillment.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Originally posted by julie_hula:

We all have a different idea of what a hero is. For me, a man who 'fights' for me isn't necessarily fighting an external force. He is pushing himself to be honest and demonstrative even when it is difficult.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY!

Many men do not know how strong they can be in the love and tenderness arena ... because they are too afraid to fail.

They are afraid they don't have what it takes.

The book goes into great detail about a man's "wounds" given him early in life ... mostly by his father.

The wounds need to be healed.... but NOT by the man's relationship with his woman.... but by his relationship with his God.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by juke1225:
<strong> I may get slammed for this post, but what the heck.

Sometimes I feel like women expect much more out of men than vice versa.

We are supposed to be sensitive yet tough.

A fighter, but also a lover.

A provider, but not work too much.

Give constant affection, but not expect sex too much.

Give women equal treatment, but special treatment at the same time.

Listen endlessly, but not to drag our wives down with our own problems.

Go easy on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I hear when I read your post is ....

insecurity
resentment
keeping score

In your life, what matters most to you Juke?

Pep

Pep:

Okay... I'm going 2 make a renewed effort 2 find that nuke in the garage when I get home this evening. ...it must be there somewhere.... hm.... Maybe under the workbench behind the Model A?

...BOOM!

oops, found it!
-ol' 2long

You are right I do have some

insecurity
resentment
keeping score

after all of this can you blame me? But I still think that what I said is true. All I want from a woman is someone who I have things in common with, am attracted to, will stand by me as a partner/friend, and be loyal to me. I don't expect Wonderwoman because Wonderwoman doesn't exsist and neither does Superman.

Prior to dday, had I read this thread, my response probably would have been more like Juke's.

Pep said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I hear when I read your post is ....

insecurity
resentment
keeping score </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that was me.

I think the responses from some here are definitely related to where they are at in their recovery (or not).

(Of course, if I had read this thread prior to dday, I would have been wondering what the he11 I was doing here.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

RH