Originally posted by juke1225:
You are right I do have some

insecurity
resentment
keeping score

after all of this can you blame me?

Blame?

I don't understand how "blame" fits in here?

I wish you felt better about yourself is all.

But I still think that what I said is true. All I want from a woman is someone who I have things in common with, am attracted to, will stand by me as a partner/friend, and be loyal to me. I don't expect Wonderwoman because Wonderwoman doesn't exsist and neither does Superman.

If you could feel super about yourself .... would that be wrong?

If you could feel

confident
peaceful
generous

would you grab that opportunity?

What if feeling that way (super) does not arrive by way of woman?

Pep (I am a wonder of a woman!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep:


Great 2uotes!

Looking for some really SUBSTANTIAL transformation stuff myself, ol' 2long is.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Pep:

Great 2uotes!

Looking for some really SUBSTANTIAL transformation stuff myself, ol' 2long is.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just so you know, my friend.....

this is VERY much a Christian based book.....

truth in advertising.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Pep:

Oh Sh... OOT!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi All.

I have almost completed this book and would like to weigh in on some of the comments.

Issue 1:

Wild at Heart is NOT about affairs, it is about being a man.

The gist of the book is this:

1 – No man has a perfect (fleshly) father.
2 – Thus our fleshly father will make a mistake at some point and wound our masculinity. This mistake takes on various forms addressed in the book.
3 – We try to heal this wound in our flesh. Usually through some form of replacement. Withdrawing, over-achieving, lust-overdrive, abusive tendencies are some.
4 – This results in an unsatisfied life.

The book then goes into the fact that healing the wound comes from our perfect (heavenly) father. It addresses the ways that society is trying to keep “us men” down – like in church, where you are supposed to be a “nice guy” if you are a Christian man. It also goes into how to heal this wound. And addresses the fact that there is a force in this world (evil) that is actively resisting your attempts to heal this wound.

Issue 2:
What does a woman want? I would say a woman wants a knight AND a poet.

But I would caution the men: there is a fine line between a knight and a tyrant.
And I would further caution the men: there is a fine line between a poet and a sissy.

And I would say this to the women: time and patience is the key. If you wait around for you man to become the knight/poet (assuming he is not) BEFORE you act the lady, you are going to lose him. For there will be some woman out there who has life WORSE than you do and she will see him that way. Guess where HE will go. The better lady you are, the better knight he will be.

But this works both ways. If I want to modify someone’s behavior, I CAN do it with a cattle prod. I WILL be able to get you where I want you. But you will resent me and you will only act the way I want when I am around or when I might find out. Is that how we want our relationships?

Better instead to LEAD you where I want you. To treat you better than you deserve (the core issue of the Christ-like servant leader). In that way, you will be motivated to seek my higher level and the better behavior will stick. Simple in theory, actually works, but very difficult in practice. Why? There is an enemy.

Point is, none of us can be perfect all the time. If I am trying to be the knight, but have a bad day, my spouse needs to act out of mercy and grace and TREAT me as the knight (be the lady). The same applies when she does not act the lady. In that way everything stays positive and the marriage gets stronger. Too often we fall into the trap of grabbing the cattle prods. That means short term gain, but long term resentment. Add to this, that the other key is open, honest communication between the two. An attempt to understand things from the other point of view. An HONEST attempt. You may NEVER understand why your spouse feels a certain way about something, but you MUST RESPECT it nonetheless if communicated honestly.

See. MUCH more difficult to do. THAT is why the heavenly father needs to be involved. To help heal the wounds. To give us His strength so that we can give more than we get. That’s what it is all about. I am a man to glorify God, not for my wife. She is a woman to glorify God, not for me. God then blesses us through our spouses. If your spouse is not a blessing, the question to ask is what have YOU been doing to glorify God lately?

Issue 3:
On being the hero…

This “fiber” of the thread bothered me most. Then men saying they were done being the hero, look where it got them.

I was the hero too. (Not perfect, but the hero). And all it got me was a WW.

So why do I not have sour grapes?

Because I wasn’t being the hero for her, I was being the hero for me.

You see, if my marriage fails or succeeds, I still have to look in the mirror every morning. And I would MUCH prefer seeing a hero looking back.

NCWalker

Originally posted by juke1225:
All I want from a woman is someone who I have things in common with, am attracted to, will stand by me as a partner/friend, and be loyal to me.

Quoting from the book

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eve is a garden of delight (Song 4:16). But she is not everything you want, everything you need -- not even close. Of course it will stay a million miles away. You can't get there from here because it's not there. It's not there. The answer to your question can never, ever be found there.

Don't get me wrong. A woman is a captivating thing. More captivating than anything else in all creation. "The naked woman's body is a portion of eternity too great for the eye of man." Femininity can arouse masculinity. Boy oh boy can it. But femininity can never bestow masculinity. It's like asking a pearl to give you a buffalo. It's like asking a field of wildflowers to give you a '57 Chevy. They are different substances entirely.

When a man takes his question to the woman what happends is either addiction or emasculation. Usually both.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can you guess what "the question" is????

Pep

I definately didn't expect perfection out of my wife, but she seemed to expect that out of me. My point is that many seem to expect perfection and it is completely unrealistic. Life is not a fairy tale by any means.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by ncwalker:


If your spouse is not a blessing, the question to ask is what have YOU been doing to glorify God lately?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW !!!!!!

A wonderful post... and this is my favorite part...

I was trying to tease you into this thread....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Thanks for your post....

How's life?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong> Hi All.

I have almost completed this book and would like to weigh in on some of the comments.

Issue 1:

Wild at Heart is NOT about affairs, it is about being a man.

The gist of the book is this:

1 – No man has a perfect (fleshly) father.
2 – Thus our fleshly father will make a mistake at some point and wound our masculinity. This mistake takes on various forms addressed in the book.
3 – We try to heal this wound in our flesh. Usually through some form of replacement. Withdrawing, over-achieving, lust-overdrive, abusive tendencies are some.
4 – This results in an unsatisfied life.
NCWalker </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So the fact I only met my father once, where does that leave me? HMM! Up the creek without a paddle I suppose or in need of much much healing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong> I was the hero too. (Not perfect, but the hero). And all it got me was a WW.

So why do I not have sour grapes?

Because I wasn’t being the hero for her, I was being the hero for me.

You see, if my marriage fails or succeeds, I still have to look in the mirror every morning. And I would MUCH prefer seeing a hero looking back.

NCWalker </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was a bit emotionally charged when I first responded tot his thread, but I do appreciate the way you expressed this "HERO" notion NC. I do not regret my actions at attempting to be that "GUY" but I know realize I should only be that GUY for myself and not for my W specifically.

I'll say again this is a great thread topic! It has me examining so many things I've done, but more importantly WHY I've done them. I'm looking at today and tomorrow and trying to understand what actions I should take to be true to "MYSELF". An understanding of self is my true journey at this point, I'm so tired of chasing my tail for short-term goals sake. Good posts EVERYONE!

I have to admit...this is one of the most enlightening things I have ever read.

I agree 100% with the excerpts.
It could not be explained any better than this.

I sure could have used it a few months ago when posting on the EN forum.

There was a "debate" about the act of sex being something special between committed couples...and a few posters disagreed that it didn't need to be between committed couples. It was something enjoyable to do with anyone that they wanted to share it with. There was no "need" for a commitment because it was "simply" a sharing of emotions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> "Simple" is not the word that I would use.

This kinda throws that theory out of the water.

oh Well...the people on EN are a different kettle of fish anyways.


JMHO
committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by juke1225:
My point is that many seem to expect perfection and it is completely unrealistic.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder who in your young life told you that you needed to be perfect in order to be loved?

Of course you will feel that you are "never enough".

This is a wound..... can you see that?

Pep

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

"gave this southern girl the vapors..... "

JPH you are too cute!

I think it gave me the vapors too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Man that first excerpt Pep posted - WOW


I think ya'll are on to something here.

NCW, you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On being the hero…

This “fiber” of the thread bothered me most. Then men saying they were done being the hero, look where it got them.

I was the hero too. (Not perfect, but the hero). And all it got me was a WW.

So why do I not have sour grapes?

Because I wasn’t being the hero for her, I was being the hero for me.

You see, if my marriage fails or succeeds, I still have to look in the mirror every morning. And I would MUCH prefer seeing a hero looking back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good to have to have you back buddy. You have an amazing insight. Appreciate your sharing it with us!

I have a question for you based on what you said above. Were you consciously thinking that you were a "hero" and if so did you go wrong in that you were providing (or not meeting, as the case may be) the appropriate needs of your lady? Do these relate to the same EN's that the Harley's talk about or would you say these are separate?

In my case, I can't say that I thought of myself as a "hero." But I did have that goal to retire in 6 years (which would be about 15 years early) so that I could be with and around my W more than I was. So " it " was about me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks for all the great posts!
RH

OK,

Here are some responses:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:
How's life?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well…

I try to do this…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I would caution the men: there is a fine line between a knight and a tyrant.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and I need to listen to my own advice more.

I also try to do this…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Better instead to LEAD you where I want you. To treat you better than you deserve (the core issue of the Christ-like servant leader).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and many times I fail.

And RAP is trying to do this…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> my spouse needs to act out of mercy and grace and TREAT me as the knight (be the lady).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">… and many times she fails.

And we both try to do this…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Add to this, that the other key is open, honest communication between the two.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">…and we usually do when we are not being selfish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But fortunately we BOTH have a new appreciation for this…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MUCH more difficult to do. THAT is why the heavenly father needs to be involved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So while things aren’t completely healed, we are on the way.

=======================

FamilyMatters:

Been lurking on and off and watching your story.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So the fact I only met my father once, where does that leave me? HMM! Up the creek without a paddle I suppose or in need of much much healing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say the latter. Wouldn’t even JEST about the former. “Wild at Heart” does address the healing. And spiritual healing is addressed in many books. Take heart to this common theme, which I also have mentioned before. The Enemy is FINITE. Only God is infinite. The Enemy must conserve his resources and he is a phenomenal tactician. So when you are about to make a big step forward is when he will pull the full-court press on you. You’ll have a goal, and the enemy will make you settle for a lesser goal, or make you feel like you don’t deserve it. If you have submitted to God’s will and have the resolve to resist the enemy, that is all it takes. There’s like a million promises in the Bible. Claim them and pray about them LIKE YOU ALREADY OWN THEM. Not “Please God, if only you would give me this…,” rather “Hey God, you know that promise YOU made ME in Romans? How about it?” Ever notice how in life you get what you expect? You usually figure all that out with the old 20/20 hindsight. Why? LEARN from that. Expect the promises and your 20/20 hindsight will change from “If only I had… “ to “I’m glad I did …”

========

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovering H:
I have a question for you based on what you said above. Were you consciously thinking that you were a "hero" and if so did you go wrong in that you were providing (or not meeting, as the case may be) the appropriate needs of your lady? Do these relate to the same EN's that the Harley's talk about or would you say these are separate?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting question. Yes. I have always lived as the “hero.” I ALWAYS help the underdog. I ALWAYS act with integrity and honesty. I ALWAYS think of others first and will sacrifice my time and energy for them. (ALWAYS is strong, it is really probably mostly. My point is the personal character I developed growing up has these as very strong themes).

Before the affair, I ALWAYS met my wife’s emotional needs. (Thunderheads rolling in the background, awaiting the lightning). As far as me being the hero, I thought I was. What I missed was the fact that what I was really doing was meeting the emotional needs I THOUGHT she had.

So I was serving, and doing right, it is just that my choices were not that effective. I could look at myself and be pleased, if judging my actions, my hero status, was based on effort expended. But here goes the old 20/20 hindsight – I wasn’t a very EFFECTIVE hero because I was not tilling the right soil. Do you farm to break a sweat or harvest the vegetables? The latter, I think. Presence of the former is not a guarantee of the latter.

So I was a hero, but a selfish one in that I didn’t consider the needs of the lady. I sort of rescued her, swept her off her feet, and went galloping down the road to take her home to her father, the king. She would occasionally say that I was heading to the wrong kingdom, but I was too busy to listen.

Be nice if RAP threw in some comments here, but she is busy and doesn’t get on line so much anymore.

But regarding the last question, no, I don’t think meeting the ENs of your spouse makes you the hero. That makes you a good spouse. The being the male hero from “Wild at Heart” INCLUDES being good to your wife, but applies married or not. It is about being the TRUE biblical man.

Standing up for what is right and setting that example.
Honesty and integrity.
Protecting the weak.
Harboring the innocent.
Having the courage to say “This is wrong” and not go with the flow.
Face down the giants.
Shepherding the youths.
Treating the women with respect.

That kind of stuff. The point of the book is that in our society, there has been a push for the adult male to become “Mr. Nice Guy.” Or that the man is supposed to “turn the other cheek.” Or that anger is bad. (Remember, emotions are a thing, ACTIONS are good and bad. Anger resulting in rage and wife-beating is bad. But anger resulting in OUTrage at civil injustice is GOOD.)

The point of the book is quit being emotionally gelded by society. Choose a cause to fight for. Rescue your damsel. Be a man. Nothing wrong with it.

Wishing you all the best – but realizing all you have to do is pray for it,

NCWalker

I've finally decided I'm too imperfect to do this alone. My male role models were not of the best moral character and though my actions ARENT nearly saintly compared to theirs...I do need so much more growth to be the MAN I wish to be. I am in all fairness to myself, a good man. I was shopping years back, actually browsing in a upscale men clothing store, peering at all of the fancy suits I couldn't afford, when I came upon a wallet. When I picked it up the weight of it screamed there was money inside! Without even thinking I walked over to the customer service desk and asked for a security guard. Two guards came out and I handed them the wallet and told them I had found it by the suit racks. You should have seen their faces! SHOCKED! Utterly suprised that I would hand over this wallet full of money to them. I instinctively strive to do right things, without any aforethought. I'm no saint because later I did think, hey am I an idiot for returning that wallet full of money? In essence FM is good natured, will instinctively strive to do the moral thing etc... My point is many people I've known, been friends with and seen as male role models would do the opposite. They'd be there with me in situations such as the lost wallet, and they would berate me for wanting to do the right thing. They were devoid of character instinctively, maybe upon reflection after doing the wrong thing they would ponder maybe they should have done the right thing, but always in that order. I guess that was a ramble, but it is my humble experience and my reality. I realize my role models being stuck in a mind frame of selfishness, dishonesty and deciet is no excuse for me to do likewise. I must be the best man I can be and raise my children to do the same with their lives.

As I type this, I'm researching The Servant Leader concept. I'm also reading Mark 10:43-45 and when I turned the pages...I felt a rush of emotion that I could locate the passage so quickly! I was once one the road to becoming a elder in my mothers religious congregation. The bible was something I read often, but there have been years since I've visited these scriptures. As a teenager I had given many sermons, my first at age 11. It's been years since I've picked up a bible, but I'm glad to return to GOD's word. The Servant Leader seems to be a light into what I'm searching for, a way to lead my family by example and love.

Okay I'm rambling, I just wanted you folks to know a little more about me and that your insightful, kind words were not falling on deaf ears. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

NCW: Thanks.

FM: Your last post was excellent. It's amazing how far people can come in such a short time. Just by the "tone" of your post I can see tremendous growth in the last day. Keep it up and good luck!

RH

FM:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've finally decided I'm too imperfect to do this alone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only person who can help has been waiting for you to say that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just remember, the only person who wants you to fail has been fearing you would say that. There is a huge pitfall ahead of you, my friend. The enemy IS going to try and make you think all this bad junk in your life was BECAUSE of you. You have some wounds, and they are NOT YOUR FAULT.

Be vigilant. Ask yourself right before you go to bed "How did the enemy turn me from the right course today?" Then ask yourself what you are going to do tomorrow to see it coming beforehand and KEEP him from doing that. It will make your life easier. Tends to...

... keep your foot out of your mouth.
... stop the DJs and the AOs.
... lower your overall stress level.
... help you find the joy (this IS the day the Lord has made).

BE VIGILANT. If you are on the verge of a breakthrough, the deceit is coming your way. Anger, guilt and depression will be the "flaming arrows" and the shield of faith stops them.

It IS a battle. Learn the tactics of your enemy. Take away his advantage.

NCW

Pep: Got the book and practically read it straight through. Great book. It was strange reading it, because I read it while at my son's football practice and a couple other places. What was strange was that certain places it was hard to read and I couldn't get into it and others where it should have been hard to read it wasn't. But I think I went through it too fast and will probably reread it. But mostly, I just wanted to thank you for recommending the book and putting enough up in the thread to make me want to go read it.

Thanks again,
R

First off, I will admit that I did not read all the posts on this thread. Just the first by Pep, and a few after. I guess a lot has to do with interpretation of the words. The part I identified with is:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wanted to look like the knight, but I didn't want to bleed like one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In MC, we often refer to my H's desire to please, as his "Boy Scout." In the past, H would agree to whatever he perceived I wanted, so that he could see himself as the "hero," always giving of himself to please the woman.

*Ugh* is what I have to say to that. So, during the A, I was accused of railroading him, making all the major decisions in the M, being domineering. He even went so far as to claim that our personalities made it impossible for our M to work any other way, in that I am head-strong and opinionated, and he is laid-back.

Anyway, I digress. Basically, he wanted to be the hero, the knight, but didn't want to do battle. So he just agreed to everything. That's not what I ever wanted. I really respect H's opinion, his thoughts. I didn't marry a dummy, a push-over. I wanted him to tell me his POV, yell it at me if need be, until I heard it.

Now, he does. Now, he does what he wants, whether it pleases me or not. And it is GREAT. I LOVE the fact that he listens to his own moral compass now, his own mind and heart, to make his decisions. That is how I can know him. That is how I know him. I LOVE that he is not afraid of the "Slayer" part of me - he barks right back at me!!! Yay!!!

Pep, you have recommended this book to me before, and I am determined to purchase it this week. My perspective of the excerpt in your post is very in-line with what my H and I have dealt with, and continue to deal with (old habits are hard to break, and are sneaky devils!).

Thanks for the post.

SS

Mr Pep and I watched a movie this weekend...

~~Nobody's Fool~~

starring Paul Newman, features Melanie Griffith, and Bruce Willis

As we watched .... we were both struck with how some of this movie touched on the issues at the core of the book ~Wild At Heart~ .... staying for the battle.... wounds men have been given by their fathers.... and men showing a little boy his hero's strength!

Watch it if you can. See if you can spot the healing moments.

There is an infidelity issue in the movie... just a warning for the newbies.

Pep