</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What exactly would happen if each and every person learned to give and do for their spouse and really expect nothing in return...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We wouldn't be disappointed in our relationships, would we? Because we would have no expectations of someone expressing love or caring in return. I think in a lot of cases we would give but get nothing in return because they wouldn't feel the need to try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what's the best that can happen???
what's the worst that can happen???
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Best: Pure love based on making yourself happy by making someone else happy. Mutual love and respect. A "perfect" relationship!

Worst: Having more and more expected from you by the "taker". Being used. Being walked on. Being left with the kids while husband pleased himself with friends, girlfriends etc.... Becoming Cinderella before the "fairy tale" part kicked in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> why do people struggle with that concept so much
why are we humans raised to believe that we should give and do for return
why do we need something in return
what happens to fill that need for return...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is probably a learned response. When you are a baby you smile and someone smiles back. You cry, you get fed or changed. You learn what you need to do to get and receive the response you want. Older children will do something nice, like make you breakfast in bed but imagine not giving a loving response in return, they would be shattered if you did not appreciate the gesture.

Relationships are the same. I don't mind getting up with my husband on my days off to make him coffee and spend time with him before he leaves. But if he doesn't get up with me on his days off, I miss our time together. It is something I look forward to. It is something I don't expect him to do for me but feels good when he does it.

The more he does for me the more I want to do for him an vise versa. It builds the relationship and makes each one feel special and wanted.

Cathy

Another interesting topic to ponder!

Funny though, cuz I heard Dr. Tony Evans speaking on a similar subject this morning. I think the word you are all searching for is "Agape" - it's that unconditional, more than a brother, more than a like, it's a God-love...plain and simple.

Dr. Evans was talking around the same things that you all have mentioned - pros and cons on all sides...and gave these two examples...paraphrased, of course...no photographic memory here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The love God wants us to have towards one another is that unconditional Agape type-love...and He will one day reveal to us (and everyone else) how well we did with that, at the Judgement Seat of Christ. It'll be sort of like this:

Imagine a football game that has been taped for viewing later...and, for each of the players a "highlights" tape has also been made...you know, a tape that will contain every great catch, throw, block, run past that line of scrimage, etc. What this highlights tape will not show will be all the fumbles, all the tackles, etc. So it is when we get to the Judgement Seat...here will be this tape played of our lives, all the things we've done, even some we've forgotten about, including the sadness and disappointing things we've done, but there will also be a "highlights" tape, and this tape will show all of those "Agape" moments...when you gave up your seat on the bus, because you wanted to, not because you had to...when you smiled and told someone "hello" that maybe no one else even noticed...when you bought a lunch for that bum down on the corner, because you didn't trust how he'd use the money, but knew he needed to eat...how you Plan A'd your butt off, even though your WS was so far into fogland, they could barely see the light of day...how you showed love and support to a stranger on an internet board...etc...etc...etc...and for all of these "agape" moments, you'll be rewarded.

Another example was...It's sort of like charitable giving during the year - you don't get anything for giving to the United Way, or Jerry's Kids, or tithing to your church...nothing tangible to say, I got this for helping out...but, at the end of the year, you get to claim those "gifts of love" on your taxes, and the IRS allows you to take off some of the debt owed to them, because of your selfless acts during the year...in the same way the IRS credits your gifts, so the Heavenly Father will credit your "Agape" moments.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just another perspective, and I thought it ran pretty close with what you all were saying. Anyway, he was also saying how that agape love was so much a necessary part of the marital relationship...it's not so much of how much I love my S, but how much I love God, to be able to show that love to my S. Anyway, as I said, just another perspective.

bumping up...

ark

Worst: Having more and more expected from you by the "taker". Being used. Being walked on. Being left with the kids while husband pleased himself with friends, girlfriends etc.... Becoming Cinderella before the "fairy tale" part kicked in.

This statement by Cathy is what I would fear. Is this dependent on who your spouse is? Or would uncondional love beget uncondional love from another?

Reading this by ARK somewhat answers this question for me.....but (always that but)

and if we write off her acts as unobtainable or as beyond our ability to give...then we disgrace both God's gift of Grace of earth...and each humans potential to give....

And then in reading more of this thread, I read this by YL -

.it's not so much of how much I love my S, but how much I love God, to be able to show that love to my S.


Just thinking this through for myself (on cyber paper).

These statements help me to remember that it is obtainable, and desirable. One still has to obtain a certain level of enlightenment to become the type of person who can love unconditionally, but as in all things the first step would be "the thought" or the seed.

Thank you Ark for bumping this it is probably the most important goal one can aspire to in ones lifetime.

weaver....

One thing that always depresses me about this time in history ...though in reality it may be the way of man for centuries and since this is my only experience...I get so dismayed about the knee jerk responses of people and society...

so much of our society appears to me be so extreme in views....

example.....

the politically correctness of seperation of church and state...and terms like offended by this word or that word....

the knee jerk response to teenage pregnancy so that we assume and perpetuate all teens will have sex...so lets just flood them with condoms...and how to put them on...
and skip all other education

even this last election was so darn polarized that I was almost fearful at times to speak of whom I would vote....

and I think this even carries over into our visions in our personal lives...

well if I do that...then I will just be used or hurt...

or

well no one can be as good as this person or that person so what's the point in even trying cause I might get hurt....

my feelings about giving is something I try to keep close to me...

that I always have the choice to give/do/say something....

that I have no control over what the receiver does with my giving/doing/saying

and that their response should not always be my primary motivator in giving/doing/saying...

I don't want to sound like some great martyr giver type person....
I am not..

I don't think that people that know would even describe me as someone always doing and willing to give.....

but the day to day struggle in dealing with and doing....
the repeatitive stuff that makes us crazy and feel like saying Is this all there is???

that's the stuff I changed my attitude about...
and I have the same crap and chaos that eveyone else has...but I have found that starting with me..
and changing MY attitude about doing and giving...
has made my own giving and doing easier in life...

and when i made those changes for me...
I found myself ..
less unhappy with life...
less concerned about what needed done...cause I just did it...and found in the end ...it really isn't that hard.....
once I started...

I worry that we are knee-jerking our ability to give too much...

that some recent generations really are too much the ME generation.....

that it is so much about our own self fullfilling gratification that giving and doing is becoming a strong weapon to be used against those we claim to love.....

I don't have the answers on this one by a long shot....

but perhaps we are not meant to find ourselves in what we get..which so many people seem to think...

and perhaps we aren't meant to find ourselves in giving extremely with the wrong attitude...so we empty ourselves...

perhaps we have just lost if we ever had it...
a way to find and live joyfully in a happy medium...
but I know it has to start somewhere...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ARK

Ark, I tend to agree for the masses it would seem that way.

I am reading these Firefox books where the people of appalacia tell their stories and philosphies. Well one old lady is a black woman whose grandpa was broght to the US from Africa and sold into slavery. And she herself worked for a family who were klu klux klan members. She said her granddaddy and daddy never said a bad word about their owners, and she said she was the same, couldn't think of bad things about her employers. Could only see the good. That is how she was raised. Interesting don't you think?

I have learned so much from books such as "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lamma, and "A Course in Miracles". In fact both books have pretty much changed my entire way of thinking. The common theme, as is the same for the New Testament, where Jesus' one command is that we love one another. That's it, and to seek first the kingdom of heaven and all riches here on earth will be ours. (abundance but not just material).

Anyway, my thing is that I live my life that way for the most part but cannot live/act/think that way with my partner, no matter who he has been.

Well do you think that the reason the holy people such as Mother Theresa, His Holiness the Dalai Lamma and Jesus remained single? Because the lessons they wanted to teach, and the examples they needed to set were not conducive to being in a romantic relationship, because romantic relationships screw you up and you can't remain unselfish and all loving while in one?

I'm not being funny, I really would like to know that.

What exactly would happen if each and every person learned to give and do for their spouse and really expect nothing in return...
Nirvana. Reciprocated unconditional care would meet everyones ENs with perfect symmetry.

to give with no strings attached...

I think humas reserve SOMETHING out of fear of NON reciprocity. We can feel used if our care is not retruned.

what's the best that can happen???
As I said - Nirvana - perfect relationship
what's the worst that can happen???

Not sure theres a worst but this concept is fantastic. Peoples ENs and other peoples ability to MEET them are so variable and dynamic that it is very unlikely that any couple could constantly and perpetually meet each others needs.

The best I hope for is perpetual, mutual ATTEMPTS to unreserved meet ENs in love.

Interesting question though.

I was a giver for years and a lot of good THAT did me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well I have a take on this from to seperate perspectives.

First when my FWW was active in her A the only way I survived was to find that place where I was able to do and give and not expect anything in return. If I had not found that place I would have gone mad. However, having said that I think it is only possible to stay in this place for a period of time. Thus the time limit on plan A's.

Now that FWW and I are well into recovery I do expect a return on my emotional investment. Certainly not act for act but something.

My FWW and I had a long talk this past weekend after I had returned from an out of state business trip. One of the things I wanted to do is to tell her that I forgave her, but that more importantly it was time for her to forgive herself.

We went on to talk about something Dr. Harley had written that had become very meaningfull to me, and of course I am paraphrasing here, but it goes something like this; rather than ask if our spouse loves us we should ask ourselves each day if in fact we deserved to be loved.

I told her I had been asking myself that question each day for the past 7 or 8 months and I asked her to start doing the same. After all it is or should be a two way street. No?

Okay, my point is really this. If we do not return kindness and unselfish acts are we worthy of being loved?

Gosh,my mind is flooded with things I want to touch on but I will try to create a fluid stream here of what I feel related to ark's inital Q.It still may come out jumbled.

What if we all gave to our spouses(and other's)and not expect anything in return? This is how I am living today.This is how I have lived most of my life from an early age and with my WH.It is a way of living that is close to God and it's hard to explain but it is nonetheless there for me.This is why I have always felt that the moment you put validation in the hands of other's you fail yourself.The *validation one receives or should receive should not come from other's in adulthood but yet from knowing that you are making decisions/choices from a heart and mind that is in tune with God and His teachings.Loving,caring and living in a selfless way.So that whenever you do give to another and nothing is returned immediately then you can still feel good about how YOU are acting in this world.

When we are children we are conditioned to receive a response for good deeds or behavior usually from parents or other adults who are in some way resonsible for our growth,like teachers.We get the high five for a job well done at school,or a hug for helping a sibling at home or a toy or money for responsibilities that were followed which I believe to be necessary to instill a sense of worth.But as adults,this changeover is hard to make.We are still conditioned to receive praise or material goods for such behavior so it is a dependant one,not one that always comes from free will or from the purity of a good heart.This,IMO,is not taught anywhere in mainstream except maybe in adult schools of Religion or Spirituality.Not even sure about that.

This also ties in to why I think so many people living today are trying desperately to fill in the voids of their lives with THINGS.We are a consumer society.And I don't like the path we are taking.We are trying to heal from the outside in instead of inside out.Material goods,fancy cars,mammoth homes,botox,designer clothes,pills,purses,shopping,eating,excess,entitlement,failure,depression,adultery,destruction are the order of the day.

The spirit and joy of giving seems lost on so many people unless a holiday is nearby.And this also is associated with THINGS,not the acts of caring for another human being.

I have said here before,that I have believed for a long time now,that loving a spouse in marriage IS like a parents love for a child in that it should be held in that most sincerest and sacred of relationships,full trust,protection and honesty are paramount.It is and should be unconditional.It was for me.I loved my WH with all his faults,annoying habits,the whole none yards even with years and years on unmmet "needs",if I placed that much importance on them.I would no more deny or give up my love for my children because they had annoying habits or character "flaws" either if that's what we can call them because I felt that my WH and I had a bond that was close to God.This sacredness is gone IMO.It rarely is seen anymore in relationships today,this kind of sharing.Like someone mentioned recently,it is NOT about the wedding gown,cake,presents,hoopla,etc.Those are significant but what is most important is the bond and vows shared through ceremony that ties you together for life.Of course this tie is broken many times over as are relationships with children and warring families.There seems to me to be no boundaries that cannot be crossed for a variety of reasons.For this I am saddened but what I hold dear and true in my heart and that boundary that NO ONE can cross is my belief and value system of how I live and my faith in God.This is what is always there for me no matter what I am going through in life.It never fails me.It's untouchable by people which keeps it safe.

Ok,I think I have completely run off the track here so I will stop.Too much to say and not the best writer on the planet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

how about this one...

I now look at my oringinal and don't like the way I worded it all...

that perhaps I never ever should said What exactly would happen if each and every person learned to give and do for their spouse and really expect nothing in return

crap I don't think i believe that at all...what was I thinking...why didn't someone hit me harder.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

what a bunch of caa-caa....

mr.e said...

First when my FWW was active in her A the only way I survived was to find that place where I was able to do and give and not expect anything in return. If I had not found that place I would have gone mad. However, having said that I think it is only possible to stay in this place for a period of time. Thus the time limit on plan A's.

and i think that's more what I believe in....and was trying to convey...
giving in plan a is different than giving in a 'healthy' marriage...

as so the expectations should be...

but the learning to give this way does empower and influence other acts of giving in different phases of a relationship....

octobergirl...your post ties in perfectly with the poor neglected vow to cherish and to honor...
way way underplayed but yet they are vows...

that TWO people took.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ARK

Dang it Ark, are going to go and change it now? After all this time I've been racking my brain and kicking myself because I am just not capable of being truly, unselfishly giving in a romantic relationship?????

Did you see my last post? I have even been trying to figure out if that is why The Dalai Lama never married!

Oh Ark, you went and changed the rules.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ah well, luv ya anyway!


PS - O girl, you are soooo like me, with my thoughts all over the place. Especially on a topic that means something to me!

I have an observation, I think.

I operated this way for the past seven years, from about a year before DDay1 right up through DDay2. This was even before I read what I was doing is called Plan A. At least the meeting of her EN parts of it. I guarantee you, there were no strings attached whatsoever. Well, maybe one. That she honor our marriage contract.

Results:

W's A continued unabated for another five years.

The mountain of lies grew into a continental divide.

It allowed her feel safer in her deceptions. Get away with it easier.

I received neither caring nor ENs in return.

I look back on those unconditional giving years as being a pretty good co-dependent enabler.

Sorry. She does not get unconditional giving anymore.

Why would anyone with half a brain give unconditionally to an A addict? But should we care? Yes, smart care. Love designed to help the person become well and whole. And yes, even to freely giving, but with answerable consequences. There must be responsibility involved on both sides.

If not, it is enabling behavior.

T