ncwalker,

I don't think I've ever read anything more helpful or inspirational than that. I am waiting for my WW to make up her mind, and was trying to remember why I wanted her back in the first place. Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If your spouse is being disrespectful, by all means she should be told. You would tell your boss and still be his servant, right? Do it with respect. Use your strength to keep your head cool and CHOOSE the right time to do it. Establish proper boundaries for your family. You ARE the spiritual head of the household. Just make sure they are appropriate boundaries for Godly reasons and not selfish reasons.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Re: your last post, can you give examples of being firm:

NCwalker, an inspriational post I agree.

The one thing I DISAGREE with is that unconditional forgiveness should be given to WSs without remorse being shown. Even God does not forgiv eunless asked ( altough THEN He forgive freely AMEN !)

Right now I have a haughty, unremorseful woman in my house, speaking pleasantly with me yes, but doing NOTHING to recognise or alleviate the pain her actions have caused or even recognised that she has caused pain.

I will give her time for God to work on her heart, but in faith I cannot forgive until she asks for forgiveness. I ACHE to try to forgive her, but I cannot right now as she doe snot recognoise that forgiveness is required from me or more importantly from GOD right now.

Sorry if this is unbiblical or wrong. Its how I feel.

OK guys, some responses to what is turning into an excellent thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FM:
I am on board, reporting for duty as called. Its time I stop being a dictator and adopt a more spiritual mindset, …. Trust must be reearned and our bond reaffirmed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No 2x4. You are right on track. There is nothing wrong with that as a requirement. Always try and move the scenario to a different one and see if it passes the logic test. You are placing a requirement on your wife because of her previous bad behavior. You feel in your heart that you are doing this for the betterment of your family. She probably feels it is all against her, because SHE is having the requirement placed on her, so now the situation is sticky. However, it is pretty clear to most who are not in the fog that it is reasonable. How do you handle that?

Transfer the issue to another issue. Suppose your wife bounced a lot of checks. That would have a negative impact on your family via check fees, etc. So as the head of the household, you say that she needs to produce the checkbook register every other day for a period of time and you will check the balance via phone to make sure she is keeping up with her budgeted amounts. Is that unreasonable? Would it be unreasonable to take her off the checking account if she was costing THE FAMILY money for needed clothes, food, vacation, etc. via check bouncing fees?

No. That scenario passes the logic test. Just make sure the REASON the boundary is placed is truly for the good of the family, and not selfish. If my wife balked at me requiring to inspect her check register every other day, I would say you can check mine too. I mean, that’s even, right? Just be willing to meet her half-way on another issue. Maybe you have to quit golfing for a while. That is magnanimity. That is a token sacrifice to show her you can sacrifice for the good of all. NEVER MIND you already have letting her back. Are we scorekeeping or working towards a better marriage? It is most likely that the scope of her trespass hasn’t sunk in yet. She will realize what she did to you and what you have done for her. If she doesn’t, or doesn’t seem to be able, I would do some SERIOUS soul searching on if she really is the spouse for you. Hate to say that, but it is true. You have every right to go through life NOT being walked on and to take steps to make that happen.

This is where it gets gray in an affair. If she is doing something that is causing you physical turmoil resulting in poor performance at work, or some such, it does affect the family. Have a reasonable conversation about it. Tell her “look, I don’t understand WHY you had an affair, but I have to accept it because we are partners in life together. In the same way, you may not UNDERSTAND why it bothers me when you do fill in the blank but you have to accept it for the same reasons. We win together or not at all.”

She may not be of the mindset to listen to this. Her issues may be too deep. She may say “Oh yeah, well what are YOU going to give up?”

That is where YOU must ask how bad you want the marriage to work. If you can’t POJA something together, then what is the point? Frankly, if you can’t begin to come to an agreeable condition on anything, what chance does your marriage REALLY HAVE 5 yrs after recovery? TELL HER these things. It will be a hard conversation. You servant-leadership comes in when she begins to escalate. If an argument starts, separate. Cool off. Get back to it. Heck, have the conversation with your MC present.

At the end of the day, if she is not willing to behave in a reasonable fashion, it still comes down to YOUR choice. How much unreasonable behavior are you willing to tolerate? You need to have THAT boundary clearly defined, for it is sure to be tested.

Don't fret your mistakes. God doesn't. Just learn from them. What else can you do?

NCWalker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LINY:
But in my interpretation, it's still laying down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hear hear. Was a little word play on my part. No one deserves to be stepped on for no reason. Sometimes we choose to be in a “negative” situation to reap a greater reward later. But when it is forced on us, who would blame you for trying to escape. These choices are SIMPLE in every day life. It is hard in the adulterous situation because the EMOTIONS are ratcheted up so many more notches it is hard to separate what makes sense from what you want. It is hard to consider things from other points of view. That’s why we all come here mostly. To hear other views. Thanks for adding yours.

NCW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SnoopWell
Re: your last post, can you give examples of being firm:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is more than just being firm. Being firm is more of a quick establishment of authority, but it does not make a leader. You are trying to be a servant-leader.

Consider: You are in a crowded elevator and the power goes out plunging the elevator in darkness and you and the other 10 people in the car are trapped. A few are afraid of the dark, or claustrophobic. Their general sense of panic will begin to spread. I’m not talking clawing one another’s eyes out, but just the sense of fear and panic of an unexpected situation where the solution is not apparent. Got the mental picture? So the general “din” of panic noises and motions and body language is rising. Then you FIRMLY say “OK everyone, we have to pull together.” Guess what. You will be elected leader, by default. You will have exerted your leadership through your demeanor, your firmness. There might be a CEO in there, or a fireman, or a building engineer, but YOU will be the leader because you picked up the mantle. And they will follow.

But now suppose you are about as bright as a 3 watt bulb. And your plan is to loosen the bolts to the elevator cable mounts, dropping the elevator the remaining 10 stories where it will crack open on impact and free you all. Still think you will be the leader then? Maybe to the most panicked, but anyone with a reasonable mind will either rebel or try and take leadership from you.

Your spouse KNOWS you. And the sudden firmness, beating the chest, I am the leader, hear me roar body language will not hold water. She KNOWS your faults, your baggage. (Which BTW should be comforting to you about the OM in your scenario. She hasn’t learned his baggage yet, so don’t feel that he has beaten you. It is more SHE is being obtuse. DON’T take it personal, it will eat you up.)

The people in the elevator have a little time to evaluate your (poorly conceived) plan, and your initial firmness wears thin. See?

The servant-leader has the best interests of the group (the marriage or family) in mind at all times. Everything he does in an act of service to the group, to better it. Have you been doing this? More importantly, DOES IT APPEAR TO HER that you have been doing this. To her, what she INTERPRETS is REALITY, not what you EXERT. Think about that. If that has not been the case, she will take some more convincing than you just being firm.

The rub of all this, the source of frustration, is that the WS is NOT being REASONABLE. Under what circumstances would an affair EVER be reasonable? It is not. At least, no one has been able to present me with a case where I said, “yeah, that infidelity was a reasonable thing to do.”

So the frustration is you have this VERY REASONABLE request that doesn’t make sense to your WS. Or maybe it DOES and she just doesn’t want to. That is a hard call. Resist the temptation to make her prove something to you. (I am guilty of doing this, something I am working on.) THIS IS NOT A TEST. You TESTED whether you wanted to be with her when you dated her. The TEST is OVER. So give her the answers. Tell her what behavior bothers you. Make sure you are not blaming her, it must be clear to her that it is your interpretation of what she is doing and IT may be and probably is unreasonable to her. SHE needs to understand also that YOUR reality is what you interpret, NOT what she does. The Bible says you are made strong in humbling yourself. If there is some behavior (and I am ASSUMING the A is OVER and you two are trying to recover at this point, if the A is NOT over you should be in protect the family mode, no holds barred) she is doing you do not like because it causes what you feel is unnecessary pain or grief, HUMBLY explain it to her. Do not let the conversation escalate into a fight. Maybe you have to write a letter to her. I don’t know.

Again, TRANSFER the situation to something YOU are familiar with (I mean who is FAMILIAR with an affair?!?) How about work. Think of your wife as your boss, not such a stretch because she IS holding all the cards. You want her back, she may not be sure. (For really STUPID reasons, probably, but we are dealing with what IS not what SHOULD BE.) If your boss was treating you in some way that you felt was unreasonable, you have this internal gauge that evaluates this situation. Is it worth losing the job by approaching the boss with this issue? You may be risking that. How would you approach the boss with the issue? Where would your threshold be? What is the goal? To keep the job and end the unreasonable behavior? Maybe the goal is to give the boss a piece of your mind and find another job? Work this out in your head (chance favors the prepared mind) and then approach the wife.

At the end of the day, it AGAIN boils down to your choice. You can’t MAKE her do anything. Would you honestly want a wife who would let you? Your BEST chance is to portray to her that YOU have the best interests of the family at heart and what she is doing is contrary to that. Your best chance is to do that WITHOUT LBs. At the end of the day, what more can you do? Yeah. Lock her in the house. But that ain’t a relationship.

NCWalker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob Pure:
The one thing I DISAGREE with is that unconditional forgiveness should be given to WSs without remorse being shown. Even God does not forgiv eunless asked ( altough THEN He forgive freely AMEN !)

Right now I have a haughty, unremorseful woman in my house, speaking pleasantly with me yes, but doing NOTHING to recognise or alleviate the pain her actions have caused or even recognised that she has caused pain.

I will give her time for God to work on her heart, but in faith I cannot forgive until she asks for forgiveness. I ACHE to try to forgive her, but I cannot right now as she doe snot recognoise that forgiveness is required from me or more importantly from GOD right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob. You don’t have to apologize to me. I feel that way many times, too. But you are right. It is NOT biblical, but in the Bible the answer lies. I, however, will give you something to think about WITHOUT being biblical.

Suppose you are driving down the road (and I assume you are a reasonable person who does not take joy in the pain of others or anything really unnatural) on a motorcycle. And you are coming up on a small child on a bike. You are about to pass the kid and he panics and pulls in front of you. You run him down and hurt him pretty bad.

Now this not really your fault. No great speeds were involved, the kid just panicked and pulled in front of you. There was nothing you could do. But you still ran this little kid down. So you begin the process that any reasonable person would do. Get an ambulance, find the parents. I mean you would be genuinely concerned for the child. So you do all the right things to make amends. But it turns out, the kid has some injury that prevents him from playing football successfully. I mean he can play, but he will never be a star. But his older brothers are all great players. All got scholarships to college, some are now in the NFL.

The dad of this kid is crushed. He thinks you are a b*stard for robbing his son of the football birthright. He is angry that his youngest son will not see college because he cannot get a scholarship now. His intellectual skills will not win him one and the family cannot afford it. I mean, there was no GUARANTEE that the kid would get a scholarship, but it is highly likely. Likely enough to convince his dad that he lost something.

So being reasonable (and wealthy) you put this kid through college. You have bent over backwards to make a situation that was not your fault as nearly right as you could. But the kid’s dad still hates you because he will never get to see his last son make that touchdown at the collegiate level.

What would you do, or feel, at that point? I mean, you have done your best and this father STILL thinks you are the scum of the earth. Could you live out the rest of your life at peace knowing you did your best? Sure you could, because you DID your best. So tell me. Why does the kids dad’s FORGIVENESS of you MATTER? The answer is IT DOESN’T.

You are NOT forgiving your wife for HER, you are FORGIVING her FOR YOU. You do it whether she is repentant or NOT. Think about the injured kids dad, pining away til the end of his days over a lost dream. What a sad way to live. THAT is the kind of stuff forgiveness prevents, and it does it in you.

That does not mean you wife gets away free. There is a wound that will not heal unless she helps heal it. There is a closeness that comes from giving as well as receiving that she must be a part of for your marriage to be restored. All that is true. All that is right. If she does not do her part (and it may take time for her to realize this or actually do it, so where is your threshold) then your marriage WILL be in jeopardy. Yes, she must take steps and be understanding that there are things she will have to earn back. That there are things she sacrificed. Just be careful that the things you are requiring are NOT OUT OF MALICE TO MAKE HER FEEL YOUR PAIN. That just isn’t right. What if the father of the kid you run down says “I won’t feel better until I get to run down YOUR kid.” Does THAT make sense? Heck no. YOU weren’t acting out of malice.

But Bob, you HAVE TO forgive her. THAT is where YOUR peace of mind and health comes in. Forgive her for YOU. So where does her remorse come in? Or does it come in? Sure it does. Have HER ask me how to get rid of her guilt.

That is biblical.

NCWalker

NC and Friends,
I have read your replies to my posts and I do appreciate this thread, it's very enlightening to say the least. I must comment on something that has begun to occur within me, and I needed your input if possible.

Since I've began reading further on the Christ-like Servant Leader concepts and mind you I am following scriptures as I do this. I've located some excellent studies, call it a lesson plan for Servant Leadership training. I must say this...this ...for lack of a better word, THIS HURTS LIKE HELL! Please allow me to explain.

My Children

I have made so many mistakes...LORD I have made so many mistakes and it pains me to realize all this time I thought I was doing the right things. I led my household like a dictator, a heavy hand with my D, S and W. LORD forgive me. I had no male role models for how to relate to my W especially and my mother, bless her soul, she was always so over-burdened with being a wife, and the disciplinarian she was angry most often and said many things out of anger. Angry outbursts with hurtful name calling was her way of leading her children. Mind you, I never call my children names, but loud YES I can be loud. I have thought wrong for so long it pains me to realize how negative I've been. I realize now that in my dealing with my C I must reflect Christ as best I can. I am their representative of Christ in human form. I am their fleshly father, and that is as GOD is to the church. I have been struggling with these feeling since yesterday and it is painful to realize though you meant well that you were so offbase. I know that today is a new day and with my new understanding GOD has given me an opportunity to correct my ways and follow his word more closely in the nurturing of my greatest treasure; My Children. I had always thought they needed me to be FIRM, in contrast to their mother who is so gentle with them, almost to the point of enabling bad behaviour. I thought my role was to be the big voice, the one they feared, now I see I must direct them with love, care, patience as Christ directed the church, the disciples and all of man. I am determined to continue my studies and grow so that I might raise them with the love and tenderness they crave, need and is my duty to provide.

MY WIFE:

I had no role model for the correct way to interact with my W on complicated issues. I see this now, OOH how do I see this. I never once saw my stepdad have a meaningful conversation with my mother where he was leading or directing her. The roles in my household were very much off center when it came to leadership and direction. My mother has always resented this fact about her H (My Stepdad) He was/is an excellent provider, he left all of the leading to my mother and YES her shoulders still ache from that load. The issue that hurts me most regarding my W is that now I'm learning how a M should function and how I should have led my wife with the love, caring consideration, no envy, no resentment, unprovoked, calmly, with understanding always from a place of love as I would my own self, never behaving rudely an mind you these are all clearly defined in the scriptures: 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. So now that I see this, now that I realize I was sooo wrong, all of the things my W fell short in, or at least most if not ALL, are of my own doing. I am the head of my household. My actions set the tone, if I treat my W as the bible prescribes then almost from default she will treat me as I need. These acts of the Servant Leader lends itself to recipriocity of that love and caring. How could my W act in her natural manner as a Christian W, if I conduct myself out of line with my proper role as a H in Christ. If a H does not HONOR his wife then his prayers will not be answered: 1 Peter 3:7. This new way of thinking stings. It drives to the core of my heart. My W's faults are my faults as are my daughters and sons, because I am the spiritual head of my household, I set the tone, mind you I know that my W may have chose to not fulfill her rightful position as a Christlike W, but in all probability I feel if I had followed Christ example, many of my M an family issues would have been avoided. A W's faults are the faults of the H if he is not following the path of Christ! WHEW! I need a breather.

In conclusion:

I see my road now. My W at one time was ready, she was ready! A man knows when he has a woman who will follow him and a man knows when he does not. It was me who did not know the word or the way to lead. Out of desperation I used outbursts or heavy-handed approaches. It was me who had no idea how to lead. I did a good job of pretending I knew what I was doing. My eyes are open people! I see the light now. I will hang in here with my W for as long as I can because I know it will take time for my changes to sink in. It takes time to show you are actually on a path, I do not think my W will have any problems giving up any of her extracurricular activities for the benefit of her M and family once she knows I'm HERE, I'm LEADING in a Christ-Like manner. I feel so strongly now. I feel her soul has ached for me to wake up and understand these things. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be a better H and father. A H is a leader not by his power, his loud voice, his physical strength but by his loving, caring, selfless insight and protection for those that he leads. NC am I making you proud? I know that I'm making my mother proud and GOD forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel finally I am making my GOD proud also. This has been an awakening. My family thanks you all, and especially you NC WALKER. God Bless you brother!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

~ wow ~

quite the thread here.......

Pep

Wow. That's the second wor that came to mind. Amen, being the first.

That my, brothers, my friends, my teachers, was some of the most inspiring reading--no, words spoken truly from the heart with the wisdom of the Good Lord powering every keystroke. Reread this. I did.

Thank you.

So how come NCWalker is even ON this board if he gives such great advice? How come HIS wife marriage was in a state that allowed his wife’s affair to happen?

Simple.

I am a fleshly man, same as all of you. No better. No worse.

I have a good heart, WHEN I CHOOSE TO USE IT.

I have a terrible mind (I really mean ego, earthly wisdom) that is hard on my family WHEN I CHOOSE TO USE THAT. Of which I probably chose more often in say years 7 through 11 of my 13 year marriage.

FM: You brought tears to my eyes as I read your post. I have been going through the same issues as you. I have been making the same choices. It is actually quite a load off my shoulders to hear someone else AGREE that is truly what it means to be a man, as I have been questioning that of late.

Your realization of what you have done to your family, the sorrow, the fear, the questions like “how can they forgive me for what I have done?” Those are good things.

The Bible talks a lot about the roles of the women, what they should do to be the wife of noble character. Stuff is actually listed out in Proverbs. But to the man, it pretty much only says be the spiritual head. Other things are in there too, like love your wife as Christ loved the church. Where is the checklist? The Proverbs 31 for guys?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCWalker’s aside: Here is an INTERESTING question. There is a difference between men and women. Most men I know are VERY checklist driven. Give us a list, we’ll just do it, no questions. Most women I know are VERY climate driven – the tone of the situation they are in drives their actions. BOTH of us could use a little more skill in each others strengths. Maybe that is why God gives the women the checklist, to say they need a little more planning to help the enemy stay out of their heads. And men get zip. To say they need a little more empathy as lack of a list FORCES them to seek God himself for answers. Think I’ll start a thread with this question.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Back to you FM: That spiritual head thing carries with it quite a burden. Part of the male birthright is accountability for your family when you get to heaven. Not only are you going to answer for your spiritual state when you get there, but that of your wife and children as well. Just as the pastor of a church will answer for his flock. Quite a burden when you stop and think about it. You should be scared. Scares the he11 out of me. Not fear, but the reverential awe of our Creator. Maybe a little bit of raw fear, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Fortunately, God doesn’t really care (beyond accepting his Son as Savior) where you are at when the time comes, but how you walked. Not how bright your light was, but who you shined it on. Think of your kids going through potty training. Maybe they trained early. Maybe they trained late. I had two early ones and one really late one (the middle). Heck, the last one ALMOST learned BEFORE the middle one. At the time, I was really concerned about the middle one and his training given his age. Looking back now, I am just thankful he accomplished it.

God is going to be thankful that you have learned a lesson. You may feel you have learned it late. But this is not starting some retirement fund or college fund, where the earlier the better. This is God’s GRACE we are talking about here. You learned it and at the end of the day, that is what matters to him. Don’t fret the past, that is almost a slap in His face. Are you saying He cannot NOW work a miraculous healing in your family now that his tool (you as the servant-leader of your house) is being honed?

You have seen the “dark side” so you should be able to tell when you are heading back for it. Your kids are resilient. God’s grace can heal them at any time. All this stuff about “scarring our children for life” is psychobabble. It engenders paranoia and makes us afraid to parent them. (Book plug: Get “Parenting with Dignity” by Mac Bledsoe, very good read for a guy.) I’m not saying you can be as abusive as you want and it won’t affect your kids, I’m just saying our current society has us wearing kid’s gloves with our kid’s. Afraid that every mistake we make will turn them into mass-murderers. If that were the case, we would have all killed each other by now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

I will promise you this, FM, for it will happen. You will have times when your kids HATE you. But it will be the enemy working on them. Feeding their egos, telling them they don’t need you. Typical rebellion. The promise I have is this: If you truly have changed and take the spiritual leadership role to heart, one day each of your children will realize what their dad OVERCAME for no other reason than love for them. You’ll see it in their eyes.

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

No, thank YOU

NCWalker

Update:
I talked to my W last night about my recent mood changes, she had inquired on more than one ocassion asking if I were okay. I told her of my studies, though she has seen me with the bible and was interested in my actions, me and the bible? Yes, ME and THE BIBLE. I gave her glimpse int whats swirling around in my mind and my new insight into what my role is and should be. My W was mostly quiet, as she was still exhausted from missing sleep working on her extracurricular pursuits. I chose not to advise her on any of these things, instead I went to the word regarding what the bible says I SHOULD BE DOING. These things did seem to resonate within her, but the full impact of GOD's words will need to settle in. It was not a very lengthy conversation or dissertation, it was one of me revealing so many things I needed to do for myself so that I could be a H embodying the WORD. I talked of my children and my need ending my heavy handed tactics, I talked of her and my errors in our previous talks on controversial issues that impacted our M and family. I revealed my own lack of understanding to this point, the revelation that these scriptures incited with me; A GLOW. I did touch on one point about her actions and said that I do feel responsible for the current condition of our M, but these things were not intentional. I have begun learning how I should conference with my W, how I should approach all issues selflessly out of love and compassion. I did however explain that now this path is being chosen, not only in deeds but in actions that she will be accoutable not only to me as a H, but to the LORD. I reminded her that the bible is straightforward regarding our duties to one another and if we neglect those duties GOD's blessings cannot touch us fully. Infact, I told her that my previous actions though well-intentioned put me in a place that my prayers would go unanswered, I mean how could they? How can a man pray and have no faith? How can a man look for GODS blessings and not attempt to follow his WORD, at least if I were attempting to follow the lessons of CHRIST, my channel and communicatino with him might be open. Words were said last night, as well as deeds displayed. I hugged my children and told them I loved them, which is something I do often, but it felt different last night. It felt like I'm finally getting it. I said so many things last night that I can't recall them all, but I did remember saying to my W that I needn't be loud, Fear and Force is not necessary when you are leading your family as their Servant and Leader. When a man is leading relying on his own instincts and desperation, force and demands are his only tools. I want to use a carefully crafted wrench to screw the bolts on our families vessel, not a HAMMER. My W went to bed early and she didn't speak of my words to hear regarding all of this. I'm sure she thought about her H's awakening as she drifted off. I'm sure she was stunned that I was quoting scriptures and being calm yet engaging. My W will have decisions to make, but the most telling part of the conversation was when I said,
My studies instruct me to be this Servant Leader, to HONOR my W and to make it my goal as H to make sure that she feels cherished as I cherish my own body, these are my duties to my children as well. If I fulfill these duties as best I can, my W will fulfill my needs as best she can. A happy, loved, cherished, honored W beams and she in turn comforts her H and the children inturn honor their parents. She agreed with all of this, though I think a small part of her doesn't care too much for my biblical quotes, What Christian can argue with scripture? My W might feel more trapped now, trapped in her own confusion between her needs, wants and their contrast to GOD's words. It does bother me that she knew these words and chose not to follow them, but it bothers me more that I am just now seeking them out. My W has pained herself so by neglecting these words. I saw a statement from our Medical Provider and there was a doctors visit recorded for 3 weeks ago that I had no clue about. I asked my W about it and she finally confessed that she passed out on the street the same day that she left after we had an arguement. She finally divulged that she was walking down the street, had an aching headache and then she just went black. She says she woke up in the hospital and was kept there overnight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I asked her why she didn't tell ma about this? She contends that we were not in a good place at the time. I responded that she has been back home for almost 2 weeks and that this is something I feel that she should have communicated to me. OHH the independence of this woman! I didn't get upset, stunned and disheartened is the better description. How can my W not feel that it's important for me to know she passed out walking down the street, strangers found her and called the ambulance, and she spent a night in the hospital? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Please explain to me where it will kick in that she is M'd? When will she realize that she isnot this person on an island? Where is the honesty and communication? I didn't berate her or ridicule her for her secrecy, I only stated that we must communicate if we are to rebuild our trust, bond and that her not confiding in me this event is dis-heartening. She kissed me on the forehead and went to bed. I HAVE MUCH WORK TO DO! PRAY FOR ME PEOPLE, THIS WILL NOT BE EASY I WILL NEED GOD TO GUIDE ME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Excellent all around!

NC, Again this is great perspective. The post from FamilyMatters is more my perspective. I was not a good leader for my W (no kids) and rarely made things win-win for us. Now that I have seen the light, I am trying to make it right. But she has lost her faith in me, and is putting her interests above the interest of our M. So, in trying to lead, I am trying to do what's best for our M (us), instead of what's best for either individual. She either can't see that anymore, or doesn't care.

I am trying to walk the path of the servant-leader, and I feel like it is SHE that is knocking me off. I struggle and slip, as all people do, and I wish I had the ability to get her to work with me instead of against me.

The truth is that I can never know whether the A is still active or not. She says its not. If she's lying, or she still wishes the A were active, I can't change that. I have spyed and it made me feel worse, even when I found nothing. I actually feel better assuming the A is still active, and just accepting my Plan A as a demonstration of love.

FM:

Geez, man. Give me a HARD one to answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The answer is this. You be who you need to be. Don't worry about whether she is being who she needs to be. With the implication she is not being destructive to herself, you, or the kids. And I mean DESTRUCTIVE. She may have to suffer some mistakes, you know the adage “Experience keeps a dear school, but a fool will learn in no other.”

Here is how God is going to work. If God’s will is that the two of you have a restored marriage, you WILL get there.

Where does your free will come in to play? The path you take to the destination. You can choose the path of obedience to Him, and it will go easy. Or you can choose the path of rebellion to Him, and it will go hard. But you CAN’T choose your wife’s path.

She may need to take some lumps. Remember the prodigal son. He had to sleep with the pigs before he realized what he lost.

NCW

Edited For PS:

PS - There is no promise that HER chosen path will be easy on you. Stop and think. Maybe you were chosen to be the light for her. Could mean some pain for you. Does that mean you are NOT going to do what He asks of you? You have to be careful and be crystal clear on what He is asking of you. If she NEVER turns around, or not fast enough for your flesh, you have to be very confident in your decision at that point. God MAY YET release you from your marriage if she never repents for He is a merciful God. You don't want to make a mistake on THAT call.

<small>[ September 16, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

How can my W not feel that it's important for me to know she passed out walking down the street, strangers found her and called the ambulance, and she spent a night in the hospital?

I feel qualified, unfortunately, to address this area....

I just recently began to share with my H the issues I have in regards to a chronic medical condition I've had for several years.

I don't share my weakness with my H out of my own pride. I want to be viewed as "strong" in his eyes.... which translates "she doesn't need me" in his brain.... When the truth is this:

I HAVE a weakness (my condition)
It effects how I feel physically
I NEED to share myself wholely with my spouse TRUSTING that H will find me ATTRACTIVE and DESIRABLE in spite of my weakness.

Remember what I wrote on my "What women want" thread.... a woman's greatest fear often is that she is not loved enough to be fought for.... because she is flawed, hence not loveable.

The worm has turned for me...

I am sharing my woes with my H whenever he askes... "How do you feel?"... I now assume he asks because he wants a truthful answer... not an "I'm fine" half truth....

I am fine, in the sense that I am not going to die today or any time in the near future from my condition.... but I hurt, and I am uncomfortable, and it is not "OK" as far as being cured.

I (now) trust my H to love me just as much .... anyway.

I suggest your W does not want to appear weak or needy in your eyes.... perhaps in part because she fears that her neediness will make her less attractive to YOU.

Pep

I've read you comments NC and please believe me friend, I see the light which must burn within me to lead my W properly. I understand that GOD is merciful and will release me from this M if it's his will. These changes will take time, they are not quickly remedied, I feel it a process of baby steps to his word.


Pep,
I see your point as well, I didn't look at her secrecy on this issue from the mindframe of appearing unattractive or needy. I did talk with her about this event again this morning and she did shed some light on her own feelings. She says it will take time for her to fully adapt to realizing she is in her M again and she is not autonomous, and doesn't require a NEED to shoulder all things ALONE. I am finally here. She expressed her relief to have a H that has a mindset of love, compassion, calm, patience within the Christian sense of a H to his W. I spoke to her, further explaining my mindset and actions earlier to be mostly our of frustration and resentment for her actions. I now realize that I have duties that are first to GOD. My W is the beneficiary of me being a new-minded H, but my blessings are results from this new mental state and clarity will come from GOD blessing my M not necessarily my W's actions directly. See this frame of mind allows for less pressure, less looking for a return for my actions. This selfless giving which is the cornerstone of Plan A can in my opinion be more effectively reached when you place Faith and duty to GOD in the equation. If you look to your WS for a payoff of reciprocating your sacrifices during Plan A, how long can you maintain this? My thinking is that I am changing the way I conduct, express, lead and love my W as based on GOD's word, this is a duty to my W but a instruction of my creator so if my W doesn't react a certain way as soon as I would like, this does not stumble me because I am not doing this just for her, I am doing this because this is the H I should be REGARDLESS. This is all so deep for me Pep! I haven't been in this mindset for many years if EVER. This is more my natural way of being. I am a Poet by nature, I even have the word Poet tattooed on my arm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It was I who thought I had to be MR. UNGA BUNGA and lead the family sternly, like a TOUGH COACH so to speak. I would much rather be BILL HUXTABLE, but with SPIRITUAL foundation.

Today before my W left I complimented her on her beauty. It wasn't one of those you look nice compliments either. I told her she was "beautiful, simply beautiful" she responded, "No I'm weird" to this I said "You are beautiful inside and out lady and you arenot weird, You are uniquely you and I love you for all of you. I wouldn't want a wife who was weird and I want you".

She did thank me for my words, and I told her she might as well get used to those compliments, become more comfortable with them because I will speak my mind more often now about my love for her. I'm getting it Pep, at least I feel totally different now and I feel in time she will welcome me back into her heart, infact I don't believe I was ever totally removed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ncwalker
You have a gift or a burden ( not sure which) of stabbing people in the heart with a few words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just be careful that the things you are requiring are NOT OUT OF MALICE TO MAKE HER FEEL YOUR PAIN.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now this made me pull up and think... a lot. Yes I want FWW to know how deeply she has wounded me; I want her to know that my Plan A facade is just that, and it hides a weeping ,empty hole blown in my soul and heart : in my hopes my dreams and my trust. Right now she thinks I'm sailing along in a grown up and fair manner, rather than teetering minute by minute of the brink of collapse which is more like the truth.

I want her to see that she as the only person on earth who could hurt me this badly deliberately chose to hurt me almost beyond endurance. But I do not wish this out of malice. Really. I want her to know the extent of her hurt of me because thats the only way she can ever know the true extent of my love for her.

And I would hope that once she sees the panorama of her near complete destruction of me she would be sorry for that. And I would hope to forgive her. Right now I cannot forgive this hurt. Cannot. I think I need remorse from before I can consider that. I think FWW does not need forgiveness from me anyway. She is behaving quite haughtily over her affair.

I understand your parable/analogy but it is not quite appropriate IMO. I would have needed to have driven deliberately recklessly then done NOTHING to make amends to the boy AND the Dad forgive me anyway for the good of his soul to be a more accurate analogy.

And as the Dad in your story I could not do that as it almost cheapens the act of forgiveness to give it with such abandon IMO.

I want God to fix our hearts. I am not emotionally literate enough to know what is best for us. But this I hope explains how I feel on too readily forgiving deliberate monstrous slights.

Thanks NC. I will save your posts on my PC. {{{NC}}}

<small>[ September 16, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong>
FM: You brought tears to my eyes as I read your post. I have been going through the same issues as you. I have been making the same choices. It is actually quite a load off my shoulders to hear someone else AGREE that is truly what it means to be a man, as I have been questioning that of late.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC,
I overlooked this post in my haste to spill my feelings.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Friend I appreciate your responses very much and your insight. It's great to be connected with people of your fiber and conviction. I have learned more about being a H in the last 3 months than in the previous 35 years of my life. I'm also happy that in some small way I'm able to confirm that you are on the right path. I speak from a clean slate, a H who's never been exposed to these teachings, or at least not at the age that I could comprehend and retain the information as to apply it in my life in the present. So, yes this information has moved me towards the same mental landscape that you are now perched. We are human, we are imperfect of course, but we have chosen to correct our behavious and mindsets on a path that is admirable, and promising if not for the recovery of our M's certainly for the recovery of our relationship with our creator. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FM

<small>[ September 16, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

Bob,

Right or wrong, at the end of the day you gotta live with yourself. The most important thing is consistency, which it sounds like you have.

Here is a funny. You and I are close to about the same timeline. I am having an easier time with the forgiveness, but a harder time with the Plan A facade. I tend to LB a little bit. You got the reverse.

Here is another funny. We are all a bunch of guys talking about spiritual and relationship issues. Hugging each other. Giving each other gut checks when needed. Would we be doing this in person? Or would we be watching the game to a few cold ones?

Best Wishes in Your Struggle - NCW

FamilyMatters,

I pray that your silence is because you have been spending the weekend with the family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just a reminder, in case you have had some stumbles.

The enemy WILL redouble his efforts when you are about to or are making a breakthrough.

He will try and tell you it is not worth the effort - a lie.

He will try and tell you you are finished and make you settle for something less that what God has in mind. Giving you something good to keep you from the best. He is the master of the bait and switch.

He will keep your emotions at a much higher level than normal to psychologically and spiritually wear you down.

You know where to turn for strength and support.

NCWalker

NCWalker -

What you said about the bait and switch is so true, something we should all have taped to our fridges, expecially me.

Thanks for that reminder,

Weaver