CV,

I learned a bunch from you this day... As well as from many others. Thanks for the laughs and inspiration, everybody.

Hello CV:

I’ve pretty much stopped posting, but for you I’ll make an exception.

Why do you think that you have this ennui towards your marriage, and towards your husband specifically? I wonder what you thought would happen if you two did reconcile? Maybe you never really gave it a lot of thought because you thought you never could get past this? Maybe you're not past it yet? Maybe this has made you jaded about human relationships?

I guess at some point you must ask yourself if you really want this man, that betrayed you, to still be your husband. Is this the man with whom you wish to grow old? Can you make yourself vulnerable to this man again . . . are you willing to expose the “soft-underbelly” of your emotions again? Can you trust this person to treat you as the precious gift that you are?

I think that all BS sometimes look at the returned WS and think “why in the world did I try so hard to get THAT back. . . . I should have let the b!tch have him.” (I refuse to make my writing gender-neutral, sorry)

Take care CV . . . I’m stepping silently back into the shadows . . . it is quiet there.

Spidey, I've been wondering about you. I figured you were either doing really good, or really bad. I'm glad it's good.

How amazing that you can feel compassion towards the BF OW. I'm reading the forgiveness part of "Not Just Friends" now. The author says forgiveness starts happening when we don't feel like getting revenge. I realize I must be getting closer to forgiving H because I'm not thinking my favorite revenge fantasy anymore. At least not very often. It's the one where he left me for OW and then got to see what it really was like with her out in the open. He gets to deal with his teenage boys, and so does she. He gets to spend his time hanging out at OWs favorite bar while I get the house and still have my family and his beside me. Oh I could go on and on with that fantasy. But truthfully I'm not wishing it on him anymore.

Now the OW is a different story. Expartner was in town a few weeks ago. He told me that he went out with some cousins who wanted to stop by OW's favorite bar. They like this drink there. ExP waited in the car because he didn't want to see her. Well, cousins said she was there, slumped over the bar drinking. At this point in time I don't feel sorry for her in the least. Maybe one day I will, but don't even want to now.

Thanks for your hopeful words and giving a glimpse of what recovery can look like. H told me he doesn't like talking about their sex because it makes him feel bad. I asked him if he's having fond memories and he said more like bad memories. For me, I do the math. An average of 2x a week for at least 6 months, well you get the picture. That's a lot of sex. It's not one time in the missionary position! The last few days it hasn't bothered me, but I know it will again.

Concerning MC, that is a step that we have to take. H told me that he might be ready to stop his IC. I am feeling the same way about my IC. We are talking to Steve when we can. Personally I want MC to get clear on the pre-A issues. Steve has been great in just helping us through the after A muck. Anyway, I am glad you and your H are moving in a good direction. There are miracles in all of this. Also, I'm not as gloomy as I must sound. I'm not going through the intense grief I've been through before. More like realizing at some point I will want more than this. I too hope we can one day meet and have that vino together. I know we'll laugh!

WOE, H told me yesterday that he thinks about the A and the damage done every day. I wouldn't have necessarily known that. I do know that he is a remorseful FWS.

SD, this is off topic. Were you ever into Stevie Winwood? H and I caught his concert on PBS. If you were into him do you remember "Dear Mr. Fantasy?" He played it and it was awesome. Brought me back to the 7th grade. It's true. My brother had the album that song was on.

3, I'm shocked. People actually posted. But what is "Tucks". Will I feel really stupid when you tell me?

jmh, glad you enjoyed this thread and got something out of my ramblings.

CN, I was seriously getting ready to put a call out for you. I was kind of worried about you after we last posted. I wondered if I drove you right off of this MB site. I know, I'm giving myself way too much credit. Thanks for coming out of your quiet space to post to me.

I had to look up "ennui". That is quite a word, but does it fit how I feel towards H or my M? "Listlessness and dissatisfaction resulting from lack of interest; boredom." Actually I'm not bored or disinterested, but I definitely want more. Your next series of questions are thought provoking. Truthfully I went from survival mode, to more survival mode. I knew that if we did recover it would have to be to something even better than what we had. I'm not going through all this SH&& for mediocre. Did I think I could get past the A? Truthfully I thought I could, but wasn't sure. And I'm definitely not past it yet.
I don't think I'm jaded about relationships. Unfortunately I did lose an innocence I had.

Concerning your next batch of questions, I am weighing them all out. I would be lying if I said I 100% want to be with this man. I think I do. Maybe I'm waiting to see if H actually lets me know I'm that "precious gift".

CN, I hope you are doing well, and that you have talked to your W. Please come out of the shadows again sometime. You know I always appreciate what you have to say to me. CV

CV, thanks. Just . . . thanks.

CV said:

"Unfortunately I did lose an innocence I had."

You know, that is what sucks the most about this whole mess. I have caused my wife to lose her innocence too.

Sometimes I just wish this life would just blow away . . . that I could start over . . . and be that kid with the big eyes that looked forward to the next dawn. It has been a long time since I looked joyfully for the dawn. I really need to change something.

edited to add . . .

I haven't really talked to my wife. I don't know what to say. She hates what I did . . . she hates me a litte too. She probably should.

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

{{{{{{{{{CN}}}}}}}}}, look at me! I'm having empathy for a FWS. Maybe at some point my empathy will grow for my own personal FWS. I hope you know I'm kidding, even though my humor might not be that great. What's even funnier is that I'm going to attempt to give you advice. I bet your relishing advice coming from a BS who still holds on to the option of dumping her FWS. But here goes!

The fact that you said your W hates what you did seems different than what you wrote the last time you posted to me. Then the message I got was that your W doesn't care, only likes to shop, and is only with you for financial reasons. If that were the case she wouldn't hate the fact that you had an A. How long have you two been in recovery? How long was the A? I remember early on for me you wrote about your own withdrawal and how it took many months to get over the withdrawal. What have you and your W done to recover? Have you been the typical FWS that prefers to just move on because of the pain? Or have you and your W cleaned out the A wound? If you manage to come out of the shadows again I'd like to know.

A few weeks ago I told H that the men on MB know me better than he does. At least the deepest feelings I have concerning my struggles over the A. I can't share everything with him yet, especially not my ambivalence. At some point he needs to know more than you guys know. As Shirley Glass says in "Not Just Friends" an A is about a door being put up with our Ss, and a window being opened for the OP. Eventually the window has to be wide open between us and our Ss.

Anytime H and I have felt the worst in our M is when we aren't opening up to each other. It's probably not a huge surprise to say that H has always been the avoider and I'm the one who wants to be open and talk. Whenever H opens up he feels closer to me. Not sure what the dynamics are in your M but not talking about your feelings sure isn't going to increase the intimacy in your M.

Is it possible your W wants the same things as you? Maybe she is afraid to talk because of being vulnerable. Maybe it would be too scary for her to realize you aren't happy and she would take it personally? I don't know if I'm unusual in this or not, but I won't go back to the place where H was holding all the cards. No can do! It was a very lonely place one year ago when the door was slammed in my face and OW had the benefits of the window being open. I know what I need and what constitutes a good M. Seriously, what's to lose? Keep my mouth shut and never heal? As a result either be in a cold, distant M, or eventually get Ded? Or speak up and talk about what at least I will need to do to recover? Have you asked your W what she needs?

OK, too much talking. Sorry CN if I went on a tangent here. I know you are a man who regrets the A and the pain it caused. I think you said once you don't have any spiritual beliefs. Maybe that helps me because I know we wouldn't be where we are today without some help from a higher power. I know there's some life lesson in all of this, just don't know what it is yet.

I'm sure you know this, but it's OK for you to ask for help here. You've given back and I respect that. If you need to toss things around on here I'll be watching, and if I can, be a person who maybe can help you unscramble some of the confusion. You and your W deserve to be happy. That wide-eyed boy is still in there CN. I bet your W would like to know him. Take care! CV

CV,, maybe I got this wrong I do not think so .

YOU said, you feel like a pain in the A$$.

TUCKS is a wipe for HEMRIODS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK the humor goes over board sometimes. LOL

Thought I would give ya a good laugh .

CV,, maybe I got this wrong I do not think so .

YOU said, you feel like a pain in the A$$.

TUCKS is a wipe for HEMRIODS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK the humor goes over board sometimes. LOL

Thought I would give ya a good laugh .

3, I told you I'm a little slow. After giving birth to 2 kids I should have gotten your joke. Now that I understand it was very funny. LOL! I thought it was some computer lingo that stood for something else. I'm too lazy to look all those abreviations up. I usually guess what people are saying when they use them. Anyway, thanks for the laugh! CV

CV,

Wow what a lot of words. Let me try to respond a bit. First, I tend to be moody, especially lately. My emotional state clearly comes through in my writing. I don’t expect empathy, it is just nice to communicate with someone with a similar history albeit from a diametrically opposed view. I will take any advice that you have.

Yes I know I don’t always post the same thing . . . consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . . . How I view my marital relationship does change based on recent events. If things are smooth I tend to be optimistic, if they are strained then I dwell on the negative. Let me try to answer some specifics. Of course my wife hates what I did. I think that this damage guides many of our interactions. Things are viewed through the lense of infidelity and it touches all aspects of our lives. My affair was over about three years ago. It was with a woman that I have known for decades. The emotional attachment probably went on for years . . . the physical aspects for four months or so.

I ached after the affair was abandoned. I didn’t pine away for her . . . I didn’t mope or cry or any of that. I didn’t tell my wife how wonderful the OP was. I never left home or harbored fantasies of doing so. After it was over, I just ached . . . I don’t know how else to put it. My wife and I did the MC suff on and off for a couple of years. We came to grips with what were some of the reasons our marriage got into so much trouble. Basically, it came down to us not really having a conception of what a married couple really is. We both had our separate lives . . . which was fine at first. After the first child came, I became the nanny while my wife resumed her activities. I began to build huge amounts of resentment. I would either try to drown it or run from it. Neither option proved reliable in the long run. I’m just trying to add some limbs so you can attach some of the details to this tree of life that I am relating. My wife and I can talk as long is it is just about the minutiae of daily life . . . what we need at the store, or when the next Dr. appointment is, or what she is going to buy next.

I’m not so much of a conflict avoider, I just would rather not have conflict if there is an alternative. I see the need for it and will use it, but only as a last resort. I do not like emotional conversations. I don’t like to discuss marital issues with my wife. I just hated MC. I hated sitting there blathering on about my pathetic little life. God, I’m glad that is over. I don’t think I would ever do that again. My wife would be fine all week and then, once in the MC’s office, Blamo, she would let lose on all this stuff that I was doing or not doing. It was just so confusing at the time. Anyway, my wife is quiet too . . . she really doesn’t have much introspection, she doesn’t like to navel-gaze and she really doesn’t like relational conversations either. She really had no questions about the affair. She didn’t want to know anything really. She just wanted me to know that I was a right [censored] . . . I did get that message.

I don’t have spiritual beliefs in the Christian sense. I’m intellectually and emotionally more a Buddhist. It is the only one of the major religions that makes a lick of sense to me. I firmly agree with one of the tenants of Buddhism, which I summarize as:

The essence of life is suffering.

We suffer because we wish thing to be different than they are.


I would ask for help, but first I have to determine what I need help with.

Wow CN! I just read what you wrote. The computer has been occupied all night with my older son doing homework. I just took a shot of nyquil so am getting kind of sleepy. I'll respond tomorrow when my head is clearer. CV

Hi CN. I've had some sort of flu thing going on, but mostly have just felt too blah to respond to you yet. I talked to Steve Harley today, which always helps clear my brain up. He has a way of explaining me to me very accurately. That is no small task.

Truthfully I'm a bit baffled by your M dynamics. You don't want to talk about your relationship or anything emotional. Does that work for you two? I mean isn't an M a relationship? As humans don't we feel emotions? I'm not trying to be a smart@@@ here. You said you're not a conflict avoider, but would rather find alternatives in dealing with it. I guess I just think that some conflict is inevitable. Two people with 2 different points of view. My H always assumed if there was conflict then maybe we suck. A good R shouldn't have any conflict. I think a good R is about acknowledging the conflict and being able to talk and understand each other, not necessarily agree.

You say that your W does not like introspection, and you hated MC. Yet you don't come off at all like a shallow, superficial man. So what's that about? I'd be curious as to why you hated MC so much. When H and I went to MC for 1 1/2 yrs, he hated it in the beginning. He always felt on the hot seat. Mostly because I was so verbal. Truthfully, I also think he had more crap to work through. It's true! I think our MC was balanced. Maybe you felt ganged up on?

I told Steve today that I was feeling kind of indifferent towards H. He asked me how I thought people fall in love? Of course I know the MB answer. When each person is meeting each other's ENs. He asked me if I thought H was meeting my ENs. I listed all the positives, but ended up saying not the top ones fully yet. Basically he told me that's why I'm feeling indifferent.

My question to you. Do you and your W know what your top needs are? If so, what are you 2 doing to meet those needs? I feel like a hypocrite even writing this to you given you are 3 yrs. into recovery and I still don't know what the HE&& I'm doing. But this is what came to me in my weakened state. Also I was curious as to what you think we have in common. If you feel like telling me I'd be interested.

Well hopefully you are coming out of the shadows enough to even see this. Hope you're well! CV