Girls:

YOU BOTH keep letting your H's Off The Hook (by making excuses) and stating things like:

He's not good at opening up....OR...He's not comfortable with emotions...ect,...

Well, guess what? They don't have to be good at it to Start.
Fact is.....They will get BETTER at it as they do it.

Also the benefits go beyond just getting the EN talk you want.
Just by the very ACT of them Attempting something you KNOW they don't want to DO....will go a very long way in making YOU SEE that they are serious and they are trying and that they do care and want this too Work (the M, that is).

In addition, they don't have to be "comfortable" or good at it to DO it.
I don't feel comfortable doing lots of things (but they are necessary, so I do it).....such as Public Speaking.
HATE IT!!! Feel scared EVERYTIME.....but must be done when called.

Next, you'll claim: "Well, I can't Make him do it or open up"!
Yes, that is true...you can't force him to do anything (that's not Technically true..but for this rant we'll pretend it is).

But you can do this.
You CAN let them KNOW that if the A (and everything else about it) feelings, reasons, lessons learned, ect,. are NOT talked about ......then there will be a barrier between the 2 of you that will never Go Away.
[NO matter how much time passes]
This CAN be done calmely....without LBing. (really it can)

Then you can turn up the pressure by asking them to talk (either daily, every other day. weekly...basically whatever time table you feel is best) and then if they refuse or clam up....simply remind them that this "issue" is NOT Ever going to go away (on its own) and you will be back tomorrow to ask again.
Remind them that you need this to move on, that you WANT to move on.....but because they are the one that "hurt" you.....you NEED this FROM them in order to be healthy and whole again.

In fact, they are the only ones that can provide this act for you .....
after all (who else are you supposed to ask? The OP...please).
And even in that case the OP couldn't fully tell you what was going on inside of your spouse.
This is information you need to know.
Even if it does cause your H's to have to step outside of their Own "comfort" zones in order to do some True "introspection" to come up with the answers.

Point out to them that your own "personal" recovery is Totally "in their hands".
They have the "key" to either help you through this......or keep you a Prisoner "of" it for years and years.

Finally, point out that "when Momma ain't happy, NOBODIES happy".
So there is some payoff for them as well.

They just need to know that you CAN get past this, that there is light at the end of the tunnel...but honestly they are the ones that Determine HOW LONG this "chaos" goes on for everyone.
When the WS cooperates its a much shorter time frame then for those who have to cobble their Recovery together...all alone.

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Good Morning y'all,

I am really still around. I haven't had time to read up on everyone's posts. Sorry about that.

I do, however, need your prayers and support. H went on a job interview last week. We went with him. It is a good 5 hours away from here. Yeah!! Maybe that is far enough. Anyway, we don't know anything yet. Just need to pray that it works out. It really is a perfect job for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So that is why I haven't had time to post much. Been trying to help him get materials together for the interview process and help him prepare mentally. He is really ready to move. Since he has to work with OW everyday, I feel there is still a connection that can never be broken until he leaves that job. By his own admission, he is still struggling with withdrawal everyday. I know that it is because he has to see her everyday. And there is no getting away from her - they are both managers in the same dept. that report to the same boss. I do believe he is trying not to see her.

Anyway, I promise I will read up as soon as I have time. I'm also working on my project work, kids and everything.

Top Rope - I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that you do most of the taking care of your children. I apologize if I missed something about that in a previous post. Do you have a flexible work environment or work from home? I do hope your 4 year old feels better. That sounds very scary.

HW and 2B - I need to catch up with y'all. I hope you are doing ok with Halloween and other triggers. I did find some stuff to burn. H brought me all the cards she sent him. She even bought him a star. How sappy. Actually, sounds like something I would do - but she can't. And how dare she anyway. See - Anger still here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I'm a fairly mild, small, polite and southern, but don't get me "riled up" or people will be amazed at how someone so sweet can be sooo angry. It is true "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I sometimes feel like telling folks not to mess with me. You really don't want to cross me right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, other than that everything going well here. I think we are going to go to a haunted house Sat. night. Let me know what day y'all are going to burn the stuff. (or you may have said that in one of your posts that I haven't read - sorry!)

Hope you all have a good day.

ng <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok top rope….so you need to just come and tell my H all of this. You can articulate your thoughts so well and I stumble over and over with them.

You made comment that we need to be going do this path together. But he seems to have “gotten over it”. The only time the A is mention is when I bring it up, now granted he hasn’t gotten mad about that but I feel like I am just dredging it up over and over and one of these days he’s just going to throw up his arms and say, you know what I didn’t have to deal with this with her so I am out of her. He says no, but he also said he’d never have an affair.

It’s funny that you mentioned reactions to what is being told. That was one discussion my H and I did have. I told him I was scared to death that because I showed I was irritate when she was still calling him and he’d tell me that he would stop telling me. He again said he promised he would tell me every time she called but man I have that doubt in the back of my head that he won’t. When will that ever go away?

What you have written explains what I am going through so well. I look forward to the day that I can put the A behind me and stop obsessing about it. I feel to a very small degree that I have made some progress. There are a lot of days that (not lately due to triggers dates) I don’t think about the A every minute to hour of the day. I’ll be glad when that is an every day thing just not once in awhile.

I am such a better communicator in writing rather than talking. I can’t tell you how many times I would write my husband a letter to tell him how I was feeling. It was a way for me to get my feelings out without being interrupted and argued with. The last time I wrote my husband a letter telling him my feelings was in Jan. and the affair was still going on. And he responded back in a letter (which was really unusual because normally he would talk to me after I would write him) and he was so horribly cruel and mean. Made the OW out to be this saint and made me out to be this horrible ***** of a wife. I still read the letter once in awhile and wonder how on earth you can be so cruel and hateful to someone you love. Yeah I know fog, but that doesn’t make it any easier. Not only does the affair cause damage but it’s those words that were said that hurt so much and that is engrained in my head. Uggghhhhhhh.

I sit and look at where we are at, 6 months from D-day, some days I think wow we have really made progress then there are other days like recently I wonder, man will I ever make progress. I can say our marriage is much better than what it was. And I feel like I am the one having to “get over it” because it already seems that he’s “gotten over it”. That makes things difficult for me also because it’s like man, how can you get over this so quickly. I just don’t understand that at all. But that is just my H. Nothing ever seems to affect him, and his lack of emotion has always been an issue between us. Guess I shouldn’t expect something to awfully different with this situation. Or should I?

I’ll be the first to say you are right that I have been letting my H “Off the Hook”. A lot of what it has to do with MY fear of what his reaction is going to be when I do discuss my feelings with him. And a lot of that has to do with how he treated me during the affair. I love to rock the boat, but when it comes to my H I avoid it at all costs. I can never say what I mean or how I truly feel. I just clam up and stammer over all my words. It’s horrible.

Last night I so wanted to talk to my H. I had to run some errands and this song came on the radio. Well man oh man let the flood gates opened. And once I have been crying it’s obvious. I came home and H asked me what was wrong. My response, nothing. Nice huh.

Tonight though I decided we are going to have to talk because this weekend I know is going to be hell for me. It’s like a double whammy with triggers. I have a friend who is coming down for the weekend and at first I was looking forward to it but now I wish she wasn’t coming. I just want to be able to deal with the weekend and my emotions by myself and not have to worry about entertaining someone. Isn’t that awful.

Ohhhhhh top rope, you just need to look into that magic ball of yours and tell me how all of this is going to turn out. Pull some more potions out of your pocket and make this pain just go away…….

Thank you for your post, everything you said is true at least for me and my actions. I will try and implement your suggestions and I’m going to tell you now it’s going to be a HUGE challenge for me, but I know I can do this. Even thinking about it now I feel sick to my stomach and have tears in my eyes. Why does this have to be soooooo freaking hard.

You are a true inspiration and thank you for believing that we can do this!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugs,
LJB

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]</small>

Ms. NG….

We were worried about you , glad to hear from you!

So I’ve got my fingers and toes crossed for you. I would love to be able to move from here. H is pretty mobile for with job, it’s mine that is the hard one. I will be hoping for the very best this would be a great new start! I applied for another job a few months ago in another state and when I told my H that I was thinking of doing this he about died because he thought I’d never move from here. Boy did I surprise him…but I didn’t get the job, but I’d still move if the right job came along.

I wouldn’t be able to handle it if my H still saw OW everyday (they also worked together). That would put me over the edge. You are so strong I don’t know how you do it.

Glad you found some things to burn. I found some more stuff to burn, there is a letter I was telling top rope about that I need to burn because it brings back really crappy memories. So there is one more thing to add. I don’t think the OW ever gave H any cards or anything and if she did, he left them at work or with her. Ohhh the thought, that is the worst part I think, what your imagination does to you. Wish we had a switch that could just turn the damn thing off.

I am burning my stuff on Halloween, not sure when HW is burning her stuff? That day is going to be a horrible trigger for me so that will relieve some tension, well I am hoping anyway. And if that won’t I know lots and lots of alcohol will.

Well I better get some work done. Glad to hear from you!!!! Let us know about the job, and I’ll be praying and keeping my fingers crossed for you!

Hugs,
LJB

Good Morning everyone!

Well top rope I finally told H what has been bugging me. I didn't go into real detail, I probably should have, but I told him I just wanted this weekend to be over and explained why. At first he tried to say that isn't where he was at that he was trick or treating with us, and oh my god, I thought I was going to blow a freaking casket. So I refreshed his memory, and well he was pretty quiet after that.

He said he was sorry and he loved me then hugged me. So well at least now he knows, it's a start for me I guess.

2B,

Good for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You have to start somewhere and sometime.....and the First step is always the hardest.

(Well, the 2nd step can sometimes be.....depending on the reaction you got to the 1st). [??]

Anywho, Congrats on at least starting to do something different. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> That is a big Victory in and of itself.

We're Proud <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> of YOU!

aside: [Don't you just HATE IT when they are totally busted but STILL attempt to "explain" things away].
Especially when it makes it seem like your feelings are not valid or that your somehow "overreacting".
Unfortunately, I usually Do Blow A Gasket when that happens.
So you have my regards in being able to "hold" your emotions In Check.
{Even if you didn't feel like it}

I'd call that "Progress" all around.

In addition, Your making positive steps on many fronts (even one's not planned).
Sometimes the unexpected Ones....are the ones that you get the most out of.

(cause we always either over analyze or over value the ones we have "mapped" out)

And guess what?
Just by bringing this to your H's attention has given you something "other" then the actual trigger date to focus on (thereby lessening the effects of said trigger date).

Kind of neat how that works, Huh??

Keep up the good work.
Don't let YOU "talk" you out of continuing.
Believe me, I've seen it happen (to me) more times then I can count.

HW?

Now to you NG.
Very Happy to Read of the Job Prospects. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I HAVE added my faith to yours that your H WILL get this position and that it will be what he/you need.
I too went out of my way to get my W her current job. (She didn't even WANT to apply...she did it basically to SHUT ME up!)
And now she not only GOT the job, but she goes for her 3rd interview next week to get another promotion.
These are opportunities she never could have gotten at her old job (with or without the CLB.
So sometimes golden opportunities come out of our darkest hours.
I'll keep believing in one for you guys as well.

[And I'm still NOT burnin NOTHIN!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ]

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

Hey guys...busy day today. Sorry I haven't been able to post. We will do the burning Saturday I guess. I don't know. What do you think?

I will post more lately. I received some bad news yesterday. My best friend's little boy has bells palsey (sp??) and things are a little rough right now.

Please keep him in your prayers. I'll try to post more later. I was just thinking about you guys and thought I'd better post or you would think that I had forgotten you or was in a deep depression.

Things like this make what I'm going through seem so trivial. I feel so sorry for him and his family.

Love and hugs to you all.

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: heroswife ]</small>

Good to hear from you HW.....

Sorry to hear about your friends little boy. My mom had that, for the most part everything turned out okay. YOu can tell when she is really tired, her left eye gets droopy but other than that you'd never know.

I think whatever day works for you on the whole burning thing. I have mixed feelings about it, I want to do it but there is just something that says, I'm not sure if I am ready for that. Pretty silly huh.

Anyway, I won first place on the pumpkin carving contest. I was so excited. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I carved a skelton that looks like a pirate. Pretty kewl. Did you get a chance to go to the website I posted that shows my puppy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hugs,
LJB

OK everyone...

Here is my email address is you'd like it. I know this weekend is going to be tough and I have company this weekend so I won't be on much. I always check my email so if you need to talk (HW) you've got my email address!!!!!!

twobeusagain@hotmail.com

Hgus to you all!
LJB

All -

I don't know where to start. I tried to take Top-Rope's suggestion to confront my H with my questions and tell him that if he didn't answer them now I'd just continue to ask them. I told him I felt like I was stuck and couldn't move on because he would tell me what I needed to know.

Long story short he flipped out. At first he was just yelling at me. I started to cry and begged him to be quiet and not to yell. The kids were asleep in the next room. He wouldn't listen, he just kept yelling at me. I was pleading with him to please keep his voice down. I grabbed his arm and squeezed it really hard saying 'you are out of control, calm down' and that was it. He lost it. He jumped out of bed and screamed and yelled and said terrible things. He was in my face with his finger screaming at me. I am not sure if I really thought he would hit me. I think that was probably about as close as he has ever come to laying a hand on me. Please keep in mind that in the past I have been the physical one. Not him. It's not a good trait and it only happened once but it was too much for me at the time and he was saying such hurtful things.

I wound up collapsing on the floor in a pool of tears and dilerium. He was out of control and he wouldn't listen to me or talk to me like an adult. He made me feel like I'm stupid for even wanting to know the answers or being depressed this time of year. Like I don't have the right to those feelings.

Oh he also grabbed my books off the dresser and started throwing them about the room...monogamy myth, adultery, not just friends....on and on. He said, I have to look at these everyday. How do you think that makes me feel?

It was terrible. I'll just disclose those details and leave the rest to your imagination.

Needless to say the weekend was not good for me. We ended up on a semi good note. He picked me up off the floor and held me on the bed. He cried and begged me to forgive him for hurting me. He said he made a mistake and it will never happen again. He said it kills him everyday knowing what he did to me and that he'd give anything if he could take it back. He put me in the bed and laid down next to me. He pulled himself very close to me and held me tight. He whisperd to me that he needed to be close to me and would I please stay as close to him as I could. He said he just needed to feel me next to him. He kissed the back of my head until I fell asleep.

So I need feedback. I need to hear from you Top-Rope. What do you think?

2B - does this sound anything like what your H is like?

NG - I have said a prayer for you and your H. I hope your H gets the job. I know you need a fresh start in a new place. I'm living proof that living in the same city as the OP is not good...much less the same neighborhood.


2B - if you don't mind will you email my address to the others if they want it. It's not generic and I do not want my name on the board.

Love to you all.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

((([[{{HW}}]]))),

(not much of HERO this weekend, I must say)

First, I am SOOO sorry that your H CHOOSE to react in this manner.
(But that is HIS BURDEN and Fault.....not YOURS!!)
If he chooses to "show his [censored]" to protect his own feelings (at the expense of yours)....well that does at least begin to Prove where you are currently at in your relationship.

I was semi hopeful that he would actually open up to you, per his recent revelation & decision to you about the duty assignment.
This is most disappointing (for him to behave this way).

BUT this does show you where he REALLY is at in this process.
(AT the beginning).
He STILL only wants to ignore and pretend...NOT "deal with" and work through.

This is also his attempt to control the situation and make you "back down".

And why wouldn't he??
Hasn't it Almost Always worked in the past??

Seems this is close to how it works:
YOU at some point get your "courage" (or frustration) up enough to "SAY" what is really bothering you or on your mind.
Then he has an outburst and this puts YOU on the defensive and since your "emotional rage" (if you will) is reduced by just confronting him.....you usually back down and go back into "suck it up mode".

Only difference now is that you KNOW you can't simply go back to that existence...as it NOT working for you. (And it won't now....if you choose to go back to it).

Face it! People DO what works. So if this Tactic "works" for him, why wouldn't he continue to use it On you.

In this case, you did NOTHING wrong here. (Of course I'm ASSUMING you were calm and not "in his face" when you started this discussion).
If you were by the END...we understand.[Even though you goal is too NOT let him provoke YOU...No matter How he reacts]

Also please don't fail to recognize that this is an excellant Stratagy (for him) to get the focus Off of what you Need (answers) and get the focus on something else (the fighting and emotions).
Cause NOW that he (and YOU) are focused on the fight, his outburst and behavior...well, any actual "relationship" talk is out the window.
So Now even if you DO communicate ... its all about how "sorry" you each are and how much you mean to one another and on and ON.
But guess what ain't gettin talked about??......Your questions.
See how that works??
Your talking, but talking about fighting about NOT talking.....if that makes any sense.

Lets go back to WHY you confronted him in the first place.
You NEED to do this. On some level you have issues and questions that have to be faced head on. And he's been given more then enough time to get Himself together, to be prepared for this.
So you did it and this is the result.

Well, guess what?
The issues are STILL there. The Need is STILL there.
Its NOT going to make you any less crazy or make your Recovery any closer to being a "real" one by going back into your shell.

So you need to do exactly what you told him you were going to do.
You need to GO Back and ask again.
The issues are NOT going away, so you have to show him you MEAN what you say and that your Not Going away either. (Of course calmly and in a respectful manner).

[I made the mistake of bringing it up when I was drinking too many times].
You know that whole "liquid" courage thing?

I'm not saying go back and get in his face. (Cause honestly "right now" the drama and tension are HIGH on both sides).
Perhaps right him out an email or a letter...and continue to tell him that your not bringing it up to "punish" him.....But to help and save yourself. That by saving yourself, you will be able to save the M.
This way you continue to show him your intentions....but cut some of the drama (and fear) out of the equation.

But its important not to back down this time.
He may even "up the anti" (and make it worse before it gets better).
Children do this all the time.
You push, they think the way to back YOU down is too "push back harder".
If it works, then all you teach them is that if they push the envelope far and hard enough....They will get their way. I see much the same attitude in your H.

Of course, YOU are the BEST judge of when and how to proceed.

However, IMO you can't Go Back to the way things have been. (Oh sure you could....but then your ONLY choice is to accept things AS IS and Live with It). I don't think you want that as you've been miserable doing that for the past year or so.
Your learning that time by itself...does very little except take the sharp edge off.
Its truly is what you DO (or don't do) in that time that makes the difference.

Is it any better to be killed by a Butter knife than a sharp steak knife?? Not in my opinion, cause I'm dead either way.

Next, remember that he WASN'T ready or should I say prepared to hear this from you.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't have said it....but since you basically NEVER bring it up....(in his mind) its become a dead issue.
That's at least the First lesson he learned this weekend....its NOT dead and it won't be until he Joins you in your Recovery.
So, bad as things got....at least he knows now.

It IS back on the forefront of his mind (as its ALWAYS been on yours) and definitely back on your 2's Relationship agenda.

Next:
Just as he calmed down and attempted to comfort you....so TOO will he now have the time to "process" your request and Deal with it in a more appropriate manner Next time.
(This is an "open" [meaning timed table] NEXT TIME) : Meaning it may be the 2nd or 32nd time you bring it up before he begins to actually "get it" and understand that he HAS to open up and be Honest with you.

This may take some time to work on him.....as he's gotten "used" to getting what he wants (that being NOT Talking about it) or maybe not even thinking about it.
Well, if He wants a new and healthy marriage then he's got to get it that this means He's also got to begin to Do things "differently" then he has in the past.

I'm sure he's NOT comfortable with it. But he's a soldier (as was I).
Just DO it and it will get more comfortable over time. Bottom line.

As I said before, I know you can't MAKE him do anything.
All you can do is keep approaching him (NOT just ONE time, & throw up your hands) and keep to your mantra...."I need this from you to HEAL from what YOU put me through"......."these issues are NOT going to simply GO AWAY & we are going to face this sooner or later".

At some point he will see that its easier and shorter to just comply with your request. (as he's not stupid)

Reassure him that this is not a life long sentence. Sure it may take some time....but once you ARE able to Deal with this (by finally getting his HELP) ...You will be able to move on and be the W you always wanted to be.

Perhaps try to Put some structure to your asking.
My wife was always afraid that once we got started ....it would just go on for hours and hours. And truthfully many times it did.
Cause once I got started, I just wanted MORE and More.

However, this was too much for her. So she avoided it like the plague.

In addition, she didn't like to look at me and hear my tone and my of course "comments and interruptions."

So we had to come up with some alternatives and compromises.
1). I would write or email my questions to her.
She would then email me back or write her answers in a journal she had.
This let her get her complete thoughts together at her own pace and "say" it in the exact manner she was comfortable with. (let her get her Points across, as well as let her be thorough)

2). If we did speak face to face...we put a time limit, say an hour.
When the hour was up....we were done for the that day.
This let her not be concerned that it would just drag on and on ....with NO end in site.

3). We had us BOTH ask questions back and forth.
That way SHE wasn't the only one "on the hot seat" so too speak.

4). She wanted to put "topics" in a hat and we pick one and go from there.

5). Get him used to talking about emotional or relationship issues that have nothing to do with the A. Then as he feels more comfortable doing it on less threatening issues....he will do better with the more stressful (to him) issues.

There are Other ideas you can use to put some structure on the discussions.
Use the ones that will work for you both. But the point is get the "talking" started.

Unfortunately, the 2 of you are only starting to process the A....the way you should have been from the start. Can't do anything about all that wasted time.....except NOT waste any MORE.

He knows where your Head is at ....Now.
You have seen the worst reaction your going to get.
He's processed this somewhat.
You've seen that even if he does "blow up" you can HANDLE it (doesn't mean you LIKE it)..but you can handle it.

Do your best to be calm and respectful when approaching him. (not always easy..but do your very best).
Also do your best NOT to beat him up with his answers (or all you'll do is teach him that begin honest with you is NOT in his best interests). Again, not always easy to do...given the "emotions" involved in what you are hearing or reading.

As others have said, Only ask the questions you REALLY think you need to know.
I don't know what your "level" is.
Some need more ....Some less.
In my case, I needed it ALL......but the end result is I am free of my obsessing.

However, I do know that you need MORE than the next to Nothing you've gotten in the past.
Its tough to trust in someone that Will ONLY admit to what they have already been "caught" at. Cause we're all adults here. WE know there is always so much more then what someone is caught at.

Before someone goes off on "what" needs to be known or how it helps...here's part of my experience.
Yes, as a man....I started with the sex.
Times, dates, places, postions..whatever.
Then I went to comparisons of CLB and myself.
But then we got to the "emotional" what's that the CLB was providing that I wasn't.....the Why's of how she could lie to me over and over, ect,..
I mean I even found out about the things that "they" would fight or argue about.
This ALL showed me insights into her that I NEVER knew...and that she would never have been comfortable sharing with me. (hence her sharing it with someone else)

To me it IS ALL relevant.
MY W is NOT the same person she was before the affair (on many different levels).
IMO Infidelity is much like innocence. Once that line is crossed....it can never be "back tracked" again.
This doesn't mean the person is bad, evil or flawed....NO, this simply means that they are "changed" in certain ways (permanently). Their attitudes and perceptions are changed.
Some change more and some less.

However, the ONLY way to find out exactly "WHO" your spouse is NOW.....is by first examining the past (how he/she got there) and then seeing how compatible you are with their different attitudes.
Many times without this type of introspection, the WS themself doesn't even REALLY know "who" they are Now. They have been lying to everyone for soooo long (especially themselves) that who they are NOW is almost as big a mystery too them as to the BS.

And even if they DO know....well if your going to stay with them....you sure as heck need that info. too. The REAL them, that is.

Hey, many a WS here has proven that they are "changed" for the better. I applaud each and every one of them.
Unfortunately, we've seen just as many that are the exact opposite.
The only way find out were they are and therefore where you and the M IS , is by discussing it.

His reaction to your request could mean he is still being selfish...and doesn't really care about your healing and being healthy and happy. Remember that is what drives the A...a Selfish person. Well, if HE STILL is truly thinking that way.....YOU need to know that NOW (sooner than later).

On the other hand, he may have not just been prepared for your request and lashed out in an attempt to protect himself.
If that is the case, then that is where your continuing to approach him comes in.
Just like with an animal, (as this situation is SO Emotional) you may have to somewhat "desensitize" him to the Idea of it all. This only comes through persistence and repetition.

We DO teach people how to treat us.
He is only treating you NOW how he is used to treating you.
Sadly, your the one that wants this all to change...so your the one that is going to have to put in the work (YES, the BS's burden yet once again) to keep the ball rolling.
YOU CAN teach him to treat you in a different way.
But it doesn't happen quickly or all at once.
Its also NOT without Pain.
True and lasting change RARELY occurs without it.

Don't feel like a failure for trying something new.
Just as NO ONE learns to swim, walk or ride a bike the First or second time.....so too will trying something new in your relationship take some time as well as effort.
Just don't want to let this very negative reaction, make you think it can't be done.
Almost everyone here NEVER thought they could get to where they are today.
Many have done it....and so can YOU.

(This is just one long paragraph....as I wanted to send you out something as quickly as possible....as your mood seemed very dire). If it seems a bit here and there...then I do apologize.

Let me know if I can ask 2B for your mail address.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

ohhh sweetie...I am so sorry that your weekend turned out this way. I wish he wouldn't have done this.

To answer your question, yes this sounds just like my H. The only difference, mine wouldn't have apologized or tried to comfort me afterwards. He is soooooo good at turning things, saying horrible and hurtful things also. He's also very good at making me doubt myself and wonder if what I had just asked or done is really the best thing for me and/or us.

But it is and you need these answers. It is essential for your guys recovery and I wish he would understand that. I just dont' understand why they don't understand this. I am just so surprised at your H's reation, things seemed to be going so well. It was almost like he finally got it, you know what I mean?

It's scarey when they get so mad you don't know if they will cross that line and hit you. I am also the usually the physical one. H has only gotten physical with me once, he was in such a rage he didn't even remember doing it. When he finally calmed down he didn't understand why I was packing mine and the kids bags. He was mortified at what he had done and swore up and down it would never ever happen again and it hasn't.

I agree with Top Rope that we have allowed our H's to treat us this way for so long they feel they can still get away with it. I wish I knew what it would take for them to understand this isn't all about them but about both of us and be willing to do whatever it takes to get all of this crap behind us!

I can say they do come around. My H did realize that if he would just answer my questions that the topic would go away rather quickly (until the next time...lol). I haven't asked questions in awhile but I have a lot of questions and it really worries me because I haven't asked those questions in awhile that I might get the same reaction you did!

I am sooooo sorry your weekend ended up like this. When did this happen sat. or sun.? I know yesterday was really tough for the both of us, but I hope that taking the kids trick or treating was a little bit of a distraction for you?

I don't want you to give up on getting the answers you need from your H, and your H needs to realize that the questions won't go away until he does answer them.

I am not sure what to say because I don't know what works, you and I are both almost in the same place of recovery, but I am here for you and I might not have much advice but I have always got an ear to listen.

Just know that I am giving you big hugs today!

Top Rope, email me at twobeusagain@hotmail.com and I'll give you HW's email address.

Love,
LJB

Top-Rope and 2B -

Thank you both so much for your replies. I feel a little numb today. H acts like it didn't happen. Like it was nothing and just...well....didn't happen.

To answer your question Top-Rope...No, I was not in his face. Not at all. I wasn't even looking at him. I knew that if I looked at him I would chicken out. So I stared at the wall and spoke very low. When he started yelling I begged and pleaded for him not to yell and to have a conversation with me. He finally jumped out of bed and said he was leaving that he was through with me and he wasn't doing this anymore. That this happened a year ago and I still won't let it go. That things will be going fine and then all of the sudden I'll bring it up again and ask the same questions over and over again. That I must want him to make up something. He hasn't answered one question for me EVER. He just denies everything. He acts like it was just that one email....and that was it. But I know for a fact it was much much more. Besides that one email alone indicated a sexual relationship. It also proved that he was willing to move the entire family away from our home so he could be with her. Please keep in mind we had a brand new baby at home. She was barely a year old. And he had just gotten back from war...there was a lot of craziness happening on the homefront.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't have just let him leave. Just let him walk out the door. Like not try to stop him at all.

I don't know what to do now. I feel numb and worthless. I feel worse now then I did yesterday.

Here's my plan for this evening. I will put on my happy face and offer up SF as a way to connect with him. I'll just focus on meeting his EN's right now until I devise a new way to approach the subject. I don't know what else to do.

What do I ask him to leave? Do I take the kids and go? I can do that...I have the means to do so.

Any thoughts?

HW,

I am so sorry for your weekend. I wish I had some magic words of advice. My H is not the yeller in this family, I am. Not a good thing and one that I'm working on. You would never know if you met me how angry I could get and yelling is one of my worst traits. Actually, I haven't yelled and fussed hardly at all since d-day. I think that is one problem that we had in our M.

Anyway, my H has been very open with me and answered everything I've asked. So, I'm not sure how I would handle things if he just clammed up and refused to answer. Now, he doesn't just offer up pertinent info unless I ask. Which bugs me. Sometimes I might not think to ask some things. However, after finding the emails, they provoke enough questions, I think. Finding them has actually given me the information I so desperately needed. (hurtful, but necessary)

I know I'm not helping you at all. I do hope and pray for you that your H will find a way to open up to you. Perhaps the threat of you leaving with the kids would be a catalyst for him?? I certainly don't know for sure and would hate to advise you to do something like that. I'm not necessarily the best one to get advice from.

One question though, does he still have contact with OW at all? You eluded to still living the same neighborhood? Or did I misread that one?

2B -

My email is naivegirl38@hotmail.com to send to HW.

I just set this one up to converse. However, I hate hotmail. That is the one H and OW used. Just looking at it makes me a little sick. But hey, its free. I'll get over it. I need to reclaim it anyway. I am real big on reclaiming stuff. I'm trying to not let this kinda stuff mess with my mind.)

2B and Top Rope - I hope you are doing ok. We had a good weekend. Trick or Treating, haunted house -except I wished the weather had been cooler. I will write more later.

ng <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HW…….

Sorry I did not get back with you yesterday. I had a friend in town all weekend and we were out shopping all day then my daughter had a doctor’s appt.

As much as I hate to say this because I know how hard it would be, but maybe you do need to let him walk out the door next time if he’s not willing to talk to you about this. Maybe he needs to realize that he’s got something to loose meaning you and the kids. You have stood by him during all this, you didn’t leave. You haven’t asked questions and you need to, from what I can tell you don’t have an understanding why he did this and you need to at least some what understand it. I don’t think we’ll be able to fully and completely understand why they could do this but have some rationale, and I do believe that is possible. And the only way to get that is through asking questions.

HW……you are NOT worthless. Please get that way of thinking out of your head. You have stood by him through all of this. That takes a very strong person and proves you are willing to fight for you husband and your marriage. You are NOT worthless, and he has no right to make you feel that way. You are a very strong woman and a loving mother and wife.

I hate to say this, but your husband needs to connect with you on a different level other than SF. The problems are still going to be there. SF is a temporary “solution” if you will. I agree that meeting is EN’s is something you don’t want to stop doing but he needs to connect with you and start meeting your EN’s and right now if that is talking about HIS affair then that is what HE needs to do. Does that make sense?

If you are thinking about separating, then he is the one that needs to leave. He’s the one that isn’t willing to talk and discuss HIS affair. HE’s the one that is still shifting blame, NOT YOU! He needs to understand that discussing it isn’t going to be easy but it’s necessary for BOTH of you.

I hope your day is going better, and I am sending you lots of hugs! Hang in there sweetie! Let us know how last night went!

Hugs,
LJB

HELP.

I've told him that I will not take "i don't know" for an answer. He owes me more.

He swears he doesn't know but that what ever it was that made him feel like this was OK is gone now so let's move on.

What if he really doesn't know? Is that possible? I think I'll start a new thread and see what I get.

He's on his way home to talk to me. I've pretty much said tell me or I will move on.

HW….

Hmmmmm, I’m not sure if I would be able to buy that answer or not. I would want to know how he justified it in his head that this was okay. And he has to know that because he gave himself permission to do this. You just don’t’ do something without having a reason. I don’t think it’s possible for him to not know. Maybe that he has had time to think about it what seemed rational at the time, seems absurd now. But nonetheless, he needs to discuss that with you.

He has got to realize that this affair was not a surprise to him when you found out but was to you. Life as you had known it was no longer and that is HUGE. He needs to realize that HE has changed that and HE needs to step up to the plate and help you understand, as best you can, the whole situation.

I mean my god, you have stuck by him through this, you are fighting for your marriage does he not realize this. If you didn’t love him you could have walked away after d-day but you didn’t. Does he not understand what is at stake here by not wanting to work through this and answer your questions? I just want to slap the man and tell him to wake up.

You deserve answers HW and he needs to step up to the plate and give them to you. He might not like answering them and your not going to like hearing them but it’s something that needs to be done. For both of you.

I hope your talk goes okay, please let me know how things went. I’m worried about you. I’ll be thinking about you!

Hugs,
LJB

darn double post

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]</small>

LJB -

Thank you for your words. They are very wise and I think I will be able to use them when he gets home. I wish I could have a cheat sheet because I know I'll cry and then forget everything.

I will post as soon as I can. He should be here any minute now.

I just can't imagine walking out that door right now. I just know that if I can't get a reason I will never be able to heal.

Love ya girl.

HW,

My words are probably coming too late to read before your H gets home, but know that my prayers are with you. My H's reason was "I don't know" too. But he has been able to talk about it all in the last few months and that has been great. Now he says he thinks it was boredom. Tired of the routine of daily life. We had a lot going on, and yes, I did not pay him a lot of attention. Sooo, that is no excuse. But that is what it is.

I'm down, H did not get the job. I think they had a hard time trying to understand why he wanted to pull up stakes from a very nice job paying $$ to go to a similiar job paying less $$. Hmmmm..... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Anyway, so back to square one for us. I've got to get to work searching for more jobs. I spent a lot of energy on that one.

HW - I will pray for you. Let us know.

ng