CV, nothing anyone in particular said got to me and I know everyone is talking about their own situations. Thanks for the thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen

JUst been catching up on this thread and wondered why you all feel like being so 'mean' (for want of a better word) to the OP? All my bad karma is directed solely at my husband. I don't know the OP at all, never seen her but have spoken to her. I don't like her but she's nothing to me. My husband was everything. He's the one who let me down. So, for me, it's him that I can't forgive and want to beat the sh*t out of. Doesn't sound like we're heading towards a good recovery at all, does it!

You're all so wrapped up in hatred for OP but don't you feel this towards your partners at all? Being as you are mostly guys here, I wonder if men and women feel differently on this touchy little subject. For you lot, your wives are pure as snow and only a bad person could have led them astray. For me, my H is that bad person (he's not really but do you see what I'm getting at?)

tummytuck:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I've wanted 2 sling an asteroid at the spousal unit many a time in the past 33 months, 2.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

So 33 months and you still feel like a sling-shot would be useful! Do I want to feel like that 2 years down the line? Maybe I should beat him to a pulp now and get it over with!

I like to remind myself of the old Klingon saying, “Revenge is a dish best served cold.”

T

Methinks your OW already got a lifelong taste of the venom of the Black Mamba, on her last day of work at the FP. I'd have given $100 to have witnessed that encounter!

Methinks with the 'history' of our WS's, and my personal EN's (one in particular) not being fully met, and your voracious appetite for the same, AND, what we've both been through, it may bode well for you and I to keep 2 state lines between us!!!

CV

I'd be honored to be in your fantasy, and I'll give the "look" to whomever you wish. And I did intend to imply what you mentioned in your response, it might not be to good an idea to get our WS's in the same room, given their history! All in jest, of course! That's what happens when I break my own boundry, and write something in a rush while at work!

Well, Vince Gill/Amy grant tickets go on sale shortly, so I better mosey down and see that the line-up is orderly.

WOE, is your WW so defensive about your feeling about OM that you can't just sit down and talk about how you feel? Surely there's room for some POJA that could be discussed. You know this is a hurdle that MUST be jumped before you'll feel whole in your marriage.

SD

SD, your right that writing on MB is therapeutic for me. So if you'll indulge me a little more therapy time, I want to just comment a bit more on that fantasy of mine. All of this will be shared with my FWH so we can continue with the whole openness and honesty theme.

One of the most difficult things for me to deal with is the fact that I was invisible to H for 9 months, and semi-invisible to him during much of his fog and withdrawal after d-day. I guess I am fortunate that at this time in my life I have a pretty healthy dose of self-esteem. I really feel for a BS who has low self-esteem. In spite of the fact that I was never jealous over the younger OW, still think I can be pretty cute although not a beauty queen, and somehow think I'm a pretty cool person (I'm so modest, aren't I?), H's A did take something away from me as far as being a woman. The fact that H had nada desire for me for so many months was and is very hurtful.

The other day he called me from work. At the end of the call I let him know I was feeling amorous. Didn't exactly say it in that way. In bed that night he let me know he appreciated me telling him that, yet prefaced it with the fact that I ned to be careful saying what I said. Apparently the office manager was standing there and might have heard. Frankly his reaction pissed me off. I understand it to a point, yet I don't think he gets that not every man has a W who has SF as one of the top 5 ENs. Maybe before the A his comment wouldn't have even effected me.

What I'm trying to say is thank you for the state line comment. It's nice to know that a man would avoid me for other reasons than H did all those months. Now we can just put these thoughts to the nether regions of our minds and continue to keep those state lines between us, unless of course we BOTH end up in the D forum. I don't see that happening, nor do I wish that to happen to either one of us.

Concerning your EN problem. I believe that if one person has a problem in a M, even if the other person doesn't perceive it as such, it is still a problem. I understand how you don't want to discuss it here. I just hope one day in time you and your W can address is because there's so much info out there now and help available. As I mentioned to you, years ago I experienced some of what your W might be going through. Could have been screwed up hormones mixed with bad communication between H and I. I know I wasn't meeting his EN in this area. This situation can change. I've heard testosterone can work wonders if a woman's hormones are screwed up. I've also read and been told that a H who does housework can REALLY boost a woman's desire. Hope you don't mind me throwing this stuff out there.

Now, since you obviously can't cross those state lines, I'm thinkinbg maybe I can hire a couple of your "guys" to fulfill my little fantasy. Does any of them have the name "Guito" by chance? Of course none of my family was ever part of a certain "organization", if you know what I mean. However, all 4 grandparents did come here from Sicily, so this next fantasy is quite appealing to me. Take care big buddy! CV

CV

I really enjoyed your last post! I grinned at the Guido part, as I just watched the Godfather the other night!

Regarding my #1 EN, I'm approaching it a bit like WOE is his situation. Slowly and patiently. Things are getting a little more touchy/feely, and I'm not pushing.

FWW is back in IC for self esteem issues, and, boy does she have them. In addition she's extremely Obsessive/Compusive, and that's a trip to deal with.

Her day (every day) is made up of mental checklists that she has to complete, or she becomes agitated. If something she has planned becomes derailed, it really upsets her, throws her off balance, and 1/2 the time she gets really angry. Part of my Plan A new ME, has allowed me to disarm her anger, pretty quickly and efficiently. THAT has given her a newfound respect for me, because our pre-A marriage was ANGER BEGETS ANGER.... leaving lots of LB's and a very unhealthy marriage.

So, I guess I'll let the IC work for a while, since she started it up on her own, and has continued it for a month, and we'll see where this leads. I'm glad I'm in my mid-50's now, and my libido has slowed enough to be a little more patient in this department. Ten years ago, I'd have been in a revenge affair, or a full blown (pardon the pun) PA of my own, because of unmet EN's.

I think my FWW was so "out of love" with me that it's going to be a few more months of "married courtship", with me proving all my changes are permanent, before I can expect any real physical passion in my M. She does have the newfound respect for me, and I keep filling her LB$, but this process is nearly invisible, unless measured in months. I think there's still a part of her "mourning" the loss of the "soulmate", but it's not even something she is conscious of right now. She hasn't allowed OM to slip into the role of "total indifference" quite yet, but it's not far off.

CV, thanks for your interest in my recovery. AS I said before, you have much to offer here, and I think your posting to others will help you in your recovery as much as anything else you can do. You are compassionate, insightful and caring. There are people here who benefit immensely from your words.

Have a great weekend!
SD

SD, don't feel obligated to reply back to this post. Just had a few replies for you.

I'm glad you're being so patient with your W. Back when H and I weren't balanced in this area, I'm talking years ago, he was pretty hurtful to me. And truthfully looking back I wasn't even that bad. He made some really bad DJs because of his immaturity. Being angry will only lessen her desire.

Also wanted to comment on your W's in-love state with OM. You know how hooked my H was. This woman really did replace me in so many ways. And the time they spent together! I bet your W didn't have the amount of sex he had either. What I'm trying to say is if he can continue to unfog, so can she. While he was getting dressed for work this morning he said, "I am grateful every day that I didn't let the train wreck occur." I apparently gave him a nonverbal response to this statement. He laughed and said something like, "Oh that's nice! You give me a grunt like maybe you'll keep me, little Miss MBer." As far as his love for me, who knows? He told me he feels a deep love for me. Time will tell.

H got into IC right after d-day and it really has helped him. He knows it's the fantasy he fell in love with, not the OW. I'm so glad your W is going to IC. She has other issues to deal with such as the low self-esteem and the OCD. But she's doing something. SD, when she comes back to you, you will get the Plan Aing you deserve.

Just one question for you. I was thinking this morning that being 6'4" you have to have a specially made bed. Inquiring minds want to know.

You have a good weekend too! CV

Two things, both for SD. First I think I ignored the most important point of one of your posts and that is that it IS important that W also end contact with OM. My part is step one and you are quite right that true healing won't take place until he's gone.

Second point is that yes W is simply too defensive and sensitive to have a reasonable and sober conversation about OM. And you are absolutely right that we have to talk about this sometime. And finally a tribute to KiwiJ. As a result of her barging into this discussion and pointing out that we are all human, I will probably ask my W to read this thread. It seems that the love displayed on this thread would touch her and demonstrate what MB is all about. Yes, some of the most beautiful people we'll never meet. SD, I'm not a quitter.

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread that gives me and others reason to pause and contemplate what it means to forgive.

WOE

I hope I NEVER indicated in any way that you were a quitter. Your patience has rivaled that of JOB.

My posts to you have always been intended to be helpful, if in no other way than to have you look at your sitch from another angle.

A few months ago a thread was started, and while unsure of it's origin, it touched on your frustration with the continued contact. It may have been the thread that started you on the current path, of refusal to be a part of anything involving the OM.

Your frustration obviously still exists, and I, in your shoes, would share that feeling. In the post where I asked about your gambling, and how she would would not feel protected by you if you began attending those old "haunts" again, my point was for you to use that comparison in heart to heart discussions with your FWW about her contact, and how YOU don't feel protected so long as it continues. From where I sit, it doesn't look like the comparison would be unfair, and may make your point, in terms she would have some empathy.

I wish you only the best in your endeavors. I envy the fact that she made deposits in your LB$ via the cash register at Victoria's Secret. Should I ever be so fortunate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

WOE, your heart is in the right place, and I feel certain this will all work out the way you want it to. I have the utmost respect for your patience, your perserverance and your devotion to your FWW.

God Bless
SD

<small>[ October 09, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

^%^bump for WOE^%^

Jen /KiwiJ I don't wish unahppiness and a lack of prosperity on ALL OPs, just MY OM.

You have been as good a friend and as great a help to me as anyone ever has that I have never met. I love you and wish you all happiness and blessings. My feelings are personally derived and motivated, not towards the role of 'OP'.

My OM has wished and delvered me and my children nothing but pain and heartache and if he spends the rest of his life cowering in the shadows in case he sees me that will be only a hundredth of the miserable future I wish for him.

His GF tells me he is so fearful of me he wo't answer the door nor answer the phone. Odd as I have not threatened him.

Good. He should be.

{{{{jen }}}}

Wow, what a long thread. Very interesting, with some of my most favorite-est people! Thought I would chime in on the forgiveness aspect, as it is unfolding in my life.

I agree with what 2long posted on, what, page 2? Regarding forgiveness. I think time has been my best ally in this department. Several other factors have had time to settle into my gray matter, to help me process.

I don't know if I would say I have forgiven, exactly. I do know that when I think of the OW, who was also a close friend of mine, I don't have a physical reaction anymore. I can actually say her name outloud, not just referring to her as the HomeWrecker. Because as my H has pointed out to me, even calling her that as a joke gives her some of my power, as if she has the power to come into my life a wreck my home again. So, it is my goal to refer to her only as OW here on MB, and by her first name when discussing her here in my regular life.

I took comfort in thinking, minus revenge, that at least "What goes around comes around," and that Karma would take care of "evening the scales" for me. Then I had a disturbing thought - what horrible thing had I done to deserve this horrible pain? If I am wishing that on her, even if doing nothing conscious to make it happen to her, then that logic must surely apply back to me??? And I don't want any of that for myself, as it totally sucks A$$ to hurt that badly.

AND, as Kiwi J pointed out, I have very good friends here at MB who are FWS. Do I wish any ill to them? Heck no! I thought about that once as I was reading of Finally Learning struggling to divulge the 100% truth to her H, as she was truly just discovering it for herself. And someone told her, I cannot remember who (or maybe she herself said it), that it is impossible for WS or FWS to divulge the truthes they may still be too foggy to even see or understand or look at. And I shared that with my H. I kept thinking if I discovered "one more surprise. . . " that I would . . . what? Be willing to give up all the progress we have made? This great M we have created from the debris of the A and our old M? Why should I set limits on myself, my M, my H like that? I want FL's H to see what a wonderful person his W is by trying so hard to discover her own truth - I don't want her punished for her self-discovery. Yet that was my plan for my very own H.

So Kiwi J, you FWS's out there have impacted me beyond words. Why would I extend more love and understanding and friendship to you than my own H? That is the lesson I have learned from all of you (well, ONE of the lessons <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

I also think a lot of my anger and outrage was misplaced on the OW. I couldn't love my H and begin recovery if I felt all those overwhelming emotions just for him, so I think I divided them up. Because, truth to tell, OW is not married. She took advantage of an opportunity to - have some fun? have some excitement in her life? be in a "secret, safe" relationship that she didn't have to have commitment to? WHO KNOWS! I certainly don't. And I don't care to. I used to have the burning questions: WHY? HOW?

I guess the place I have come to is acceptance. It happened. WHY? Don't know. It happened. HOW? Don't know. It happened.

Am I in a better place than before? Heck ya. Is my M better? In every single way. Am I better? More than I ever thought I was - surprised the HECK out of myself. Can I think of any other single event that could have propelled both H and I and our M forward so completely, so quickly? Nope.

Until I accepted, I spent an unbelievable amount of energy on OW, my pain, my unanswerable questions. Entire days I was practically paralyzed by the loss of this energy. And, I had done it for so long, I didn't even realize it until it stopped. Scary.

BUT, I digress. Our MC even says some day I might see this entire thing as a gift, for the reasons I mentioned a couple paragraphs up. I am certainly not THERE, but some day, I may be. I refuse to put limits on what I am capable of doing anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Peace to all, and may we all live our best life at all times. I really like the quote in Bob Pure's sig line:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Happiness is the result of living right" - Melody Lane </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey

Hi Spidey! I've been thinking about you, especially since our very own personal thread on recovery is no more. I miss you, Atrueheart, and BIJ. I guess we've all moved on to another place in this journey. By the way you are one of my favoritest too!I'm so glad you and your H are in such a good place now.

Maybe because the OW in our case wasn't my friend I don't ask why she did what she did. I don't understand it. I was thinking the other day, IF I ever contemplated having an A, it would NEVER be with a married man. EVER! Of course not that I'm contemplating this MB friends. Although I still don't exactly feel Med since H broke our vows. I took my wedding ring off spontaniously about 3 weeks ago and haven't been able to put it back on yet. H noticed and took his ring off, and then put it back on. I guess I'll know when I want it on again.

Thoughts of OW don't rule my life, yet the pain she caused by her selfish pursuit of H makes me sick. I really do look forward to the day that she is nothing in my mind, when I am totally indifferent towards her. Right now I see her as a pathetic woman, but still can't stand her. It's funny you mentioned the name thing. When talking to H about her I can't say her name. I'm not sure why. I just can't!

I am also not at the acceptance stage YET. I still can't believe my H was such a jerk. Let's face it, if I look at what a creep the OW was, my H was right there with her. I'm not sure I will ever understand what he did. I hope in time I can totally forgive him.

Good to hear from you. Your story is a true success. CV

SD, I know you didn't suggest anywhere along the line that I was a quitter. I don't know why I threw that in there other than to convey the fact that I'm not discouraged. Your support through the last 8 mos. or so have been very helpful to me.

Here's how I got to NC for me. Last Christmas Night W had her family over and was paging through a photo album on our bar that shows all the people that have passed through. She was really honing in on pictures of OM and saying how she just loves these guys (pool team). But the message was very obvious. Not in front of W, but after she walked away I just lost it in front of her family. This included neice, mother, aunt and sister. All the important woman in her life. I realized than that I was not doing W any favor by trying to protect her reputation. The damage had been done; by her. Her family understood how ridiculous and hurtful the photo album was. I simply couldn't hide my pain during this holiday. That's when it became final. Prior to that and for the last 2 years I was willing to play the fool several times a year to keep the peace. All the while I fought with W about her hidden cell phone calls. It ruined numerous special occassions. So believe me SD, I did try and try and try. It was only after all of this time that I suggested counseling with SH. She said only after I go to IC. I still go to IC but she never embraced the counselling with SH. As frustrating as it is there isn't much more I can do. It has never been a plan B situation. It is absolutely a one sided EA that has pretty much faded but never completely dead I am sure. It does get heavier and heavier for her and I do hope that leads to the discussion that has to take place.

Otherwise you would say we have a very good marriage. She is just a person who wants to bury things and not discuss. But every now and then I hear a tid bit that tells me she has tremendous regret. She once lamented "I trusted him". This is displaced blame but I get the point. Thank you for your very kind words and support. Please continue to check in on me as you are always a most welcome friend. The one thing that stands out in this thread is the age of all the posters. That is why I want to bring my W to this one and show her that it is not just a young foolish thing that happened only to her. But that this happens to good people in stages of life. I think there is a very good spirit to this thread and I think she would be impressed.

I did understand the gambling analogy and you're right. But even closer to the point is all the people we know who have been touched by A's and how there lives have spiraled downward since. So many divorces, broken engagements and lost friendships. No one can look at the facts and dispute the effects of what the uniformed consider glamorous. I hope you are in a good place today.

WOE

OM GF called me today. If I can summarise OM's life right now:

His Affair with my FWW was busted
He still may lose his partner and his son over his infidelity
His GF has a newly diagnosed hearing disorder that will render her profoundly deaf by the end of the year. OM must learn signing fast.
His estranged son died in a car accident in August.
He is in relationship AND bereavement counselling
He is virtually unemployable and doesn't have a cent without his GF
His 'friends' have spread knowledge of his affair through the karate organization he is involved with. He fears he cannot be involved in the sport anymore where he gossip may get back to his son.
His mother is dying, diagnosed this week with advanced, agressive cancer
He lives in fear of me exposing him further and of my wrath

His GF almost asked for my mercy upon him. Strangest thing is....I almost feel sorry for him.

His life is absolutely cr@p right now. He is pond life (IMO), but he has a "Book of Job" sitch going right now.

Whats the German word for what I am feeling ...schadenfreude ?

Maybe he really is sidelined now. I will not let down my guard though.

I sure wish OM in my case would have to pay up on his overdue karma. And like, now already.

He's still just cruising along as if nothing happened. Lots of money, job unaffected, other A's on hold but sure to be restarted when the heat is off, his wife busting her butt to plan A him, kids love him. Shows up in his church with his halo all polished. He couldn't care less about the pain and misery he has caused anyone, including my W.

God, where is justice? A little biblical retribution would go a long way right now.

Oh well, it's not my responsibility. It's not up to me, and I accept that.

Perhaps it's like JL said on another thread. You knew you were in trouble when the football coach stopped yelling at you. Maybe God has given up on him. I hope not. That would be very bad. It doesn't look like it anyway - his blessings just keep on coming.

T

Guys...

I know there is some 'good' feeling in the OM getting his due, but quit thinking so small. The price to be paid is yet to come. I really think when that day comes these poor men are gonna really understand. I have my own fear...right now, I know the OM in my situation doesn't know Christ, and well, I just pray that it stays that way...that is the justice I seek. Unfortunately, I also know God doesn't want me to be this way, and I will have to stand accountable for those type of thoughts, even to someone I dislike and has wronged me so.

Anyways... I think maybe some of us BH need a reminder course right now...I challenge you guys to review the Beatitudes, and see if your spirit is 'right' right now. I know I need to do a bit of re-alignment myself, and that is really the place to start.

Rookkev, you are right but I don;t care.

OM is a serial womanising, criminal scumbag wastrel. I can think of no-one who deserves a **** life more than him. I do not delight in his downfall, but shoot me, I can't be sad for it.

AFAIK my OM is damned too, and I certainly don't want that to change. God will work on me so that I pray for his soul eventually though. I know he will.

I won;t pretend to be sorry for the scumbag on this MB when I wish him nothing but ill.

If his life wasn't sh1t I would make it so, although it is worse now than my most warped nightmares could ever make it.

Good.

God forgive me, I thrive when this scumbag suffers.

I'd hate to think of him having a decent life.

In another life I may have killed him. My hatred for him is THAT strong.