Well obviously she doesn't know God, or she would know that this was most definately not an act of God.

Does she believe in karma Gray? If she might ought to be terrified of what the karmic balance will be when it comes due. Don't you think?

I will be so happy when you quit thinking about them at all. When they are no more than a speck of dust to you.

It's hard for all of us to witness this Gray. Even on a marriage friendly site like this, it's hard to be non-judgemental of her. You probably have more compassion for her than anyone, and she is divorcing you. Go figure.

... that somebody who is able to turn off their compassion when it becomes inconvenient is not a person I want in my life.

I don't want sparrow to be that kind of person, and it drives me [i]crazy to have to accept that she is.[/i]

I know. I've been there. Done it. Got the t-shirt.

And then finally took a good hard look at myself and asked myself why it was so important to me that she NOT be that person. It wasn't just because of the compassion I felt for her -- though that was there.

It was also because of what it meant about me. That although my marriage was very good for more than a decade, I had also married someone who was CAPABLE of turning her compassion off. And I had never seen that capacity in her, or in myself (because I do have it as well), and had refused to see it when others tried to point it out to me.

A very tough lesson to learn about humanity. Mine, hers, everyone's.

One that I'm not done learning and can't quite put into good words yet. It's about boundaries and refusing to be harmed and valuing myself and understanding that love is in the action, not in the promises, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Gray,
We can come and say that you are doing the right thing, and that you will be happy, and she will not, but it's kind of a holllow thing when you have to cope with the feelings that come often.

Logic often doesn't help ease pain, and that's what you have to deal with. I can imagine, but I am sure it doesn't come close. Many others KNOW EXACTLY how you feel.

I do know that bad can be turned to good in our lives if we don't give up. If we don't cave in.

You can see it in thousands of lives. From death camp survivors, to the MB forums. People can rise above the pain life inflicts, and be happy anyway.

I know you have good days, and bad days. I suspect sometimes you wonder if the man in the glass is a chump, not a hero.

I want to tell you again, you are not wasting your time. To me, in many ways, you are a hero. I can tell you from personal experiance that happiness comes from doing what is right, not from doing what feels best any time you want it.

Again, I know you understand already. Just wanted you to know that people realize the energy you are expending. We know it takes a lot, and that you are giving it.

Wanted you to know that people care about you. I care about you.

SS

Confession time.

No, I haven't done anything regrettable.

But...

Joanna, you're right. I don't think my reasons for wanting the sparrow's redemption are pure. I think I want it partly because of the doubts I had about her over the years. And there are doubts about myself in there too. For instance, there were times when I thought to myself, am I only with this woman because I am attracted to her and because she adores me so much more than anybody else ever has? I saw her flaws. I saw fundamental differences between us. I often felt that she didn't care for me as deeply as I cared for her.

I think wanting her redemption is partly wrapped up in not wanting all my doubts about her character to be proven right, but deep down, I know my doubts were well placed.

SS, thank you for caring so much.

Don't give me too much credit. My relationship with the sparrow was my first serious one. Sometimes I think part of the reason it's so hard to let go is because I doubt the possibility that some other beautiful, interesting, good-hearted woman will want to be a part of my life. Honestly, it seems unlikely to me. My damaged self-esteem, maybe. Not sure... I usually think my doubts in that area are realistic.

I'm very sleepy; I hope this post makes sense!

GC

Hi Gray,

Just checking up on you - believe you are OK, but wanted to hear it from you personally.


Here's to the thoughtful Mr Graycloud. May he be as happy as he is smart, and good looking. (and no, I am not teasing.)

SS

SS:

How'd you do that? (or did you?).

Got ol' GC's whole thread 2 show!

...now, where are them gremlins!? ;o)

-ol' 2long

Hiya, fellers.

I am "ol' GC" - the other day I got a haircut. My barber knows my recent history. I looked at all the gray hairs on the cape in front of me, and sort of whistled. My barber said what he probably always says when people marvel at their graying hair: "That's just your wisdom showing." That's what all the women will say, right? "Hey big fella, you sure look wise - wanna play checkers?"

GC

Gray Hair ??

Oh shoot, I have had it for so long, I about forgot mine used to be all brown. I tend to not worry about things I can't change.

Anyway, welcome to the club. I still think you won't have a problem when you are ready to date. I think there were enough girls that commented on your picture to confirm that too.

2long, I continue to have problems with this site. It looks like they are fixing things as fast as they can, but I suspect there will continue to be problems for a few weeks.

I have tried three different browsers, and none of them work right all the time. I can only post with one of them, the other two give me error messages. All of them log out about every 30 seconds.

Oh well, at least I my eyes can see the error messages.

SS

Well, didn't mean to hop on here again so soon... but the sparrow has rejected my latest offer for the divorce agreement. After I gave ground on a couple of things, she has modified her offer to actually be further still from what I'm asking. I take two steps in her direction, she moves two steps farther away, then complains that I'm delaying the process.

It looks like the judge is going to have to get involved in this process. I hope she's sympathetic, but she really has no reason to be, here in wonderful no-fault land.

GC

What does your lawyer say?

Is it time to withdraw your generous offer, and play hardball?

SS

SS, it's probably time to make a more generous offer still, I'm afraid. I haven't talked to my lawyer yet - she just forwarded me the "rejection letter" from sparrow's lawyer. It was a good offer too, just not enough cash.

If I have to borrow to give the sparrow more cash, I'll try to look on the bright side. A large portion of the money will in all likelihood wind up in car4love's bank account.

She and the baby are doing fine, by the way. We had lunch and talked for a few hours last week. Isn't it funny, I've seen the baby, but the sparrow hasn't?

Oooooh, I'm mad as a hornet.

GC

Hey everybody!

It was so hard for me to get logged in that I forgot what I was going to say.

Oh yes, the gray hair -

Real women couldn't care less about a man's hair (or lack of it). Besides you are a blond. What's the big difference between blond and gray anyway. Now for me, a brunette, gray hair would be a travesty. Thank gawd for hair coloring!

Glad you and car4love are friends Gray. I'ld give ya a little smiley face right now, if I could find one to click.

Oh now I remember what I was really going to say Gray -

punching bag! Don't let that anger fester inside of you and turn into acne or an ulcer or something. Go swimming, anything physical will do.

More on this later... not that it changes anything, but OM knows about MB, who knows how?

GC

Who cares how?

Knowing about MB and "getting it" are 2 vastly different things. He can't.

He may be human, but what he knowingly did 2 your family and his is monstrous, nothing less.

I hope he sees this. But even then, he won't get it.

-ol' 2long

Oh, no, 2long, I don't expect OM to "get it". He seems to think MB is a subversive organization.

In other news, I got home, and taking weaver's advice, headed for the Y. On the way, I passed the sparrow - she was probably on her way home from her Wednesday yoga class.

Seeing the sparrow's car took me down a peg or two, then I arrived at the Y. My card didn't work. Long story short, last summer I started an individual membership, but they goofed and maintained the dual membership with me and sparrow as well.

The woman at the Y said to me, "You had a dual membership. Was it with your wife?" I said, "Yes." She said, "What's her name?" I told her. She stared at the screen for a few seconds, looked at me, looked back at the screen, then said, "Who's [OM]?" I said, "That's my wife's BF." She didn't know what to say. I said, "Aren't you glad you asked? Let's just get this new membership set up."

I imagined the sparrow taking my name off the dual membership and having OM's name placed on it. Top notch. Hope that made her feel like a champ.

After a swim, I got home and talked to car4love and found out about OM's knowing about MB, which means he's either read her emails, read my emails (most likely), or snooped on her phone conversations. She has only discussed MB with a small group of people, all in confidence, and since she's never even posted here, and has kind of kept the whole thing at arm's length, she can hardly be accused of being "involved" with this organization.

OM claims in a court document that car4love, through her non-existent "involvement" with MB, is trying to manipulate him into coming back to the marriage, and is willing to do anything to control him and trick him and make him remain her husband.

Yes, OM, you're so wonderful and irresistible that car4love would love nothing more than to have your dumb a$$ around all the time.

In fact, car4love can think of few things more annoying than the idea of having OM back in her life.

In this document filed with the court, OM "accuses" car4love of doing plan B, then gives a (poor) explanation of it, and he includes several pages printed out from the MB website.

He also states that his relationship with the sparrow, who he calls his "significant other", has nothing to do with the fact that the marriage is ending.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

He brought up his affair in a court document. Big dope! Yes, let's talk about your affair.

I do hate that this little [censored] has read my emails. Five months' worth. We're talking all my correspondence with my friends and family. Hundreds of messages, many of them very private and personal.

I don't really care if the sparrow thinks I'm trying to be manipulative or controlling or any of that. She can think whatever she wants. It makes no difference to me. I know I can't control her. I know she's going to do what she wants. So what if she has a half-baked idea of what "plan B" is? It keeps me safe from the chaos. It keeps me from hating her. Big secret!

Sorry if I'm a little hostile. I love my wife. I sought out help when I discovered something was wrong in my M. MB made sense, and the people on these forums have been wonderful to me during an incredibly difficult time.

On the night the sparrow said she wanted a divorce, I sat up chain smoking and posting here, and people like weaver, SHMI, BV, turtlehead, 10girl, believer, and WAT sat up and responded to my posts.

Meanwhile, the APs cheat and make demands and hurt us every chance they get. They send us to lawyers and make our lives miserable. They think we tried to save our marriages because of them.

Okay, I've gone on enough. I am so angry at the APs tonight. They're lucky I'm a peaceful fella.

GC

Great post, gc!

You know? I've come just shy of putting all my multithousand posts in a file and emailing it 2 my W and RM on a few occasions. I *could* do that and it wouldn't bother me a bit. But there really is no use. Personal growth in someone else can't be forced, only hoped for. And at some point even the hope that they'll pull their heads out of their nether regions fades.

After 38.5 months since d-day, I still do hope my W will "get it" at some point, but I'm losing less sleep about it with time.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. I honestly wonder what APs do when they run out of little corners their BPs used 2 occupy 2 replace with their ill-fitting OP? When all the blame has been shifted 2 the BPs shoulders in effigy, what's left 2 do? Love?

Like I said on someone else's thread a while ago, about the infamous "I love you but I'm not in love with you" mantra 2 the BP, what they should simultaneously be saying 2 the AP is "I'm in love with you but I don't love you", because that's the honest truth. And when the infa2ation - what they thought was love - wears off, and there's no-one 2 wake up in the morning 2 but a scheming, shallow, insincere OP - a reflection of the WP themselves, in fact... ...Oh, 2 be a fly on the wall that day!

Still, there are probably APs all over that never have such an awakening. But they're not someone a BP would ever want back anyway.

(just heard that Terry Shiavo passed away. I'm happy she's free)

-ol' 2long

By the way, 2long, I haven't had a cigarette in 42 days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

GC

Okay, GC, now that you're done ranting about OM and his court documents, STOP TALKING ABOUT IT IN PUBLIC.

I have a whole lot of thoughts about this situation and how it could be handled well. If you'd like to hear 'em, shoot me an e-mail. And give car4love a hug from me next time you see her. She's a mighty fine woman and she has done an amazing job of being a wife and mom in the last year. I wanna nominate her for wife and mom of the year, in fact.

I won't talk about OM and his wacky court documents any more... but get this.

Car4love called me tonight. She and OM came to some agreement or other about how to handle their taxes. I may have some of the details not quite right... doesn't matter. OM emailed car4love to tell her his username with some tax prep company, I forget which.

What's OM's username?

"greycloud"

(the real) GC