SS, thanks for the boost. I needed it. My hurt just exploded on me last night. I don't know why but likely has been building since DDs C session on Tuesday. Plus my WH's tactical avoidance is just too much for me to handle when all I require at this juncture is honesty. What the heck does he have to lose by finally telling me the whole darn truth? Let me hear it all so I can grieve and move on. For some reason since I don't really know the whole story I seem to be stuck in the spinning cycle. Reminds of the poster with the screen name Spinning the Drain. Somedays that is me. So I cried, I LB'd and I almost lost my sanity last night only for him to hold me and comfort me the rest of the night. Insanity at its best/worst.

FF, I've read a few of those "affair" books. Seems to me the business of revealing the whole truth (I think Shirley Glass calls it "the story of the affair" but I gave away my copy of NJF) happens a ways into recovery, and even then the WP has to get over some big hurdles before he can do it.

I'll never know the whole story of sparrow's affair. Ob-la-di, ob-la-da.

GC

Yeah, GC. I will likely never know the whole sordid story either.

The OP commonly seems to have some major problems, usually acknowledged by the WS. The OP can't hold down a job, the OP is a sniveling wimp, the OP doesn't know how to care for her children, the OP is in trouble with the cops, the OP is broke, the OP is a materialistic freakazoid.

GC, I was the OP. More than once. I wasn’t any of those things, except possibly a freakazoid. I was simply a fool. I hope, every single day, that I’ve learned better. So far, I think I have. It’s hard to know for sure, though. Because I have only been tested once, so far. I’ll need more evidence before I’m sure.

I didn't know it was HoFS.

I know. I wanted you to know. I hope no one else minds knowing. I thought you’d think it was okay. I love him. It’s… nice beyond words to be able to say it. Nice, beyond words as well, to have come to this from an ethical place. It wasn’t easy. And for many months, I thought he was gone from my life forever.

There is a good chance he is a better man than I.

I think that comparing the goodness of these two men is perhaps unnecessary. It seems to me that you’re learning similar things in your lives. And that you both have learned a lot about inner strength. I’m honored to know you both.

I followed his story for a long time on the thread that is no longer......... don't let him get away.

It’s a love to fight for, SS. And I’ll fight for it. Yeah, maybe I’ll borrow that duct tape from you sometime. Except that I think he maybe will have to use it on me sometimes. I’m, err. Challenging. So he says. So many people say.

How are you now? I would expect your future looks brighter than it has for awhile.

I feel right, SS. I feel … I don’t know how to say it. The future looks like a lot of work, really. It’s not easy, loving a man who lives far away. There are many obstacles that I don’t know how to overcome. There are things that I want to say and it’s too early to say them. There are things I want that he doesn’t want, or is afraid of. And vice versa, probably. I want to find ways through all of them. In fact, what I want them all to disintegrate so that I can just spend a year or twenty basking in how I feel right now. That, too, I know isn’t realistic. But it’s hard to avoid when you’re in love.

And please, one favor. How is Penny? You can condense, but I would like to know. Not the normal polite company version, but how she? You would know.

I do know, SS, and yet it’s not my story to tell. Some good, some hard, some… just life. Why don’t you ask her? Send her e-mail. She would answer you, I think.

Heh, I was only musing, J. My XW wasn't any of those things either.

Sawdust... everywhere.

GC

Sawdust... everywhere.

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha,
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha,Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha,

You really got a laugh out of me that time. I can see it in my minds eye.

I used to work construction in another life - I can see it, feel it, taste it and smell it. Now you have me spitting trying to get it out of my mouth.

You are tough Gray, You are. However, even tough guys have bad days. We're here for those. When the fire burns low tonight, I'll be there sittin by ya.

SS

JustJ:

It was HoFS?

COOL!

-ol' 2long

even tough guys have bad days.
I won't disagree with that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

for many months, I thought he was gone from my life forever.

I still don't know the whole story, the meeting, and so on. Someday.....?

There is a good chance he is a better man than I.

I think that comparing the goodness of these two men is perhaps unnecessary. It seems to me that you’re learning similar things in your lives. And that you both have learned a lot about inner strength. I’m honored to know you both.

I hear you, and I think you already know...... I said that to let you know my opinion of HIM. I wanted you to understand how much I think of him.


(On duct tape)
I’m, err. Challenging. So he says. So many people say.

Oh, I agree, you are/have been/will be. I agree, but I see that as a good thing, not a bad one. In most ways.


I feel right, SS. I feel … I don’t know how to say it. The future looks like a lot of work, really. It’s not easy, loving a man who lives far away. There are many obstacles that I don’t know how to overcome. There are things that I want to say and it’s too early to say them. There are things I want that he doesn’t want, or is afraid of. And vice versa, probably. I want to find ways through all of them. In fact, what I want them all to disintegrate so that I can just spend a year or twenty basking in how I feel right now. That, too, I know isn’t realistic. But it’s hard to avoid when you’re in love.

Feelings like this can be used for good, or they can produce harm. You know that already. I almost talked along these lines in my last post, but - for one, I didn't have the time, and second, I can't be of much help. There is a lot to work out, and it will be work.
Lots of trade offs. Lots.

Before you get too far, you need to decide what you want from your life. Once you know, it won't be hard to make the decisions.

I live in a small town, I will never make much money, and I have all the restrictions that go with those choices.
I do have a family, a W that loves me, and children that love family gatherings more than almost anything. We love each other, and it shows.

That's what I wanted, it's what I have worked for, and it's my joy and happiness. I know what I have, and I am thankful. I don't long for another lifestyle, or wish I could have things I don't have. I count my blessings, not my failures.

I can't imagine the thoughts you must have, as you think of the decisions you must make. Though we care, we can't help much with this part of it.

I continue to pray for your happiness. I want you to have what I have, and feel what I feel. It really is as good as you think it can be.

Of course, there are always bad days. We have ours too. But the good days.......ahhh, the good days.

Yes, I want you to be happy.

I am still almost afraid to visit symc. I know many there, and love them. I would want to write, and If I spent time, I would break promises already made.

Give my love to Penny, and tell her I still pray for her. For the best possible outcome - and I added one. That she will have the strength, ability, and energy to do all that she needs to do.

Perhaps I will write her, but I hate to ask questions of her when her time is so valueable, and her help needed by so many.

Thanks to you (You, and HoFS) for that excnange you wrote. It confirmed a lot of my thoughts about you - both.

SS

2long, what are you trying to say with this?

SS

That is all I ever wanted too. Not drama, not riches but someone who loves me for me and loves family. A simple, happy, peaceful existance.

You’re drawing me out SS……

Read your illustration of learning through pain when your son stuck his hand in the gas range flame. I have learned many a lesson too these last two years but it has not soured me on the opposite sex…..the error was in technique and execution, not the concept or the act. More on that later in the post.

I just installed a gas range in my kitchen. I bought it from a friend who had barely used it and moved. I ran the gas lines to the kitchen, changed the 220 volt outlet to 110, and junked my worn out electric range. I love cooking over a fire…it grounds me. It’s better at the cabin over a wood fire, but this refined sanitized version will have to do in the city. I often think I should have lived around 200 years ago…..maybe been one of David Thompson’s men as he mapped this part of the country. I dream about that sort of life right up until the time I think about going to a dentist.....then 2005 starts to look pretty good!

So SS…..am I in greater pain?…has something happened in the last 6 mos. that has had a profound effect on me? Hmmmmm. I’ve given up on my marriage…and I’m OK with that. If my STBX showed up on my doorstep pleading to come back home I’d be gentle, offer her some empathy, get her a Kleenex and bring her a comfortable seat. I’d then tell her to clean up the tissues when she’s done and to go back to her residence and refrain from contacting me again cuz the door is closed. I’m not “strong” enough to get past what she’s done for 2 years. The time she sat in our kitchen and alluded to how sexually uninhibited she feels with the OM still resonates in my grey matter. I’m done.

I’m disappointed in myself somewhat too SS. I wanted to walk away from this marriage following a map that I had made; one that included a completely pure strategy that I could follow and tell my children of as we walk through our lives. I needed a plan to follow and I needed to see myself follow it with discipline…not cut corners and rationalize my shortcomings. I can’t say I’ve been disciplined. I don’t think God is pleased.

Upon filing for divorce I’ve permitted myself to have relationships with women. A dinner here, a coffee there…..but no singing Oh! Oh! Oh! Canada with them. I know it does not fit with a “pure” strategy and I will not demean myself by rationalizing my decision. Back in July I received an email from a woman that works at the same agency I do. We had worked together one day on a project earlier that month. She asked me out. She seems to think I am all of that and a bag of chips. I can barely beat her off with her white cane. She’s 37, attractive, a runner, no kids…….looks pretty good on paper and in a tight fitting skirt.

I have continued to see her about once a week. I’d be out with her now if I’d been able to get a sitter. I told her one night that I’m still married and thus will not be putting the “Man” in Manitoba with her. She had a look on her face that people get when trying to solve the Rubik’s Cube. It seems that has only fueled whatever motivation she has to spend time with me.

I thought I’d be divorced by now…I’m not. I am curious to see what lay ahead. I’m also terrified of entering into some sort of rebound relationship that usually ends up in disaster. I don’t want to be married anymore, I don’t want to be involved in an exclusive relationship, I don’t want to be alone every night either. I don’t want to be ashamed of how I live my life. I don’t want my kids to have a skewed view of marriage and family. I don’t want my relationship with God to be conveniently placed on the back burner while I concentrate on my secular life.

That’s pretty much about it SS…..I didn’t get out fishing near enough this summer and the leaves are already starting to turn and fall in these parts. The powers that be at the agency I work for seem intent on giving me meaningful work while still enabling me to keep my schedule to accommodate my parenting responsibilities. I’m choosing to be happy, but need some down time….to think…to learn….to understand and make sense of what I’ve been through, and to plot my course. I also need to understand that my plans still mean little to God, you’d think that lesson should be drilled into my head by now.

I truly wish that we could sit around a real campfire. I’d like to hear the exchange. Actually hear those probing questions with the appropriate inflection and attempt to digest the articulate and revealing answers. I’ve learned much here, but I’m beginning to sense my desire to stop focusing on what I’ve been through, to release the obsession. That's likely the biggest reason why I don’t spend as much time here. Though I could never imagine this day back in the early part of 2004…………I now know I’m going to be OK.

Binder,
Yes, I was drawing you out on purpose. I hope you will forgive me that, but I worried about you. Not that you will fail, but for the hurt you feel as this goes along. It would be hard for anyone to endure.

I want to respond, I hope you don't mind. I am leaving town for 5 days this week, and I am not sure if I can respond in detail before I leave.

I can assure you that God knows who you are, and cares what happens to you. I know you know, but it doesn't hurt to hear it again.

Maybe when I come back we can talk about - if God was to come for a personal visit, what would he say?

It's getting cooler here too, I think we may have frost before Dec 1st this year.

SS

Faithful,
If you are true to your name (here at MB,) I believe you will get what you are longing for.

It's hard to have faith when you are in the middle of it, but keep trying.

SS

Binder, I think I understand exactly what you are saying. I know that girls suffer when they are left, but I think that guys have a harder time for some reason. It seems guys have a harder time resolving their feelings, and also are not very good at being without a women in their life. Atleast the deep feeling ones like you and Gray.

I want to be alone, and yet not alone. I want a good friend to fall through the ceiling, with none of the baggage. Something that just is, and not something I have to think about, or worry about, or work for.

I think I'll be alone for a long, long time, but that brings me a certain amount of peace in some strange way.

JJ, I am very, very happy that you are having these feelings again. I have followed your story from the beginning because of your little girl I think. As I am a single mom and once faced the possibility of losing her. And your story gives hope to those of us who sometimes worry will never feel what we once felt again.

SS,

I so understand what you are saying about choices, and not getting burned again. However, I honestly believe that I chose just the person I needed to choose, so I could grow and so I could face the things in me which I needed to face. So I could finally resolve and heal from my past.

Yes, I believe he was Gods choice for me, because I needed to learn some things. And I needed to love someone who was not worthy really (because of his own past demons).

It is all part of the plan, and all part of the lessons I am learning.

I chose exactly what I needed to choose to get where I am now and where I eventually will be.

And I don't really think I had that much "choice" in the matter, for the reasons I stated above.

SS & Csue(if you drop by the ole camp fire),

The most amazing thing just happened, I got my answer!

I know you said in your post to Binder that you have a trip planned, so please don't feel the need to respond to me either. Just a yes will do, if you think I really do "got" it.

I was reading "Captivating" by Stasi & John Eldgridge this afternoon and came upon this paragraph which hit me like a ton of bricks.

You see I already figured out why Dan came into my life when and how he did, but I hadn't gotten an answer to why he left when and how he did.

Now I do! The paragraph from the book -

" And so you will see the gentle, firm hand of God in a woman's life hemming her in. He'll make what was once a great job miserable, if it was in her career that she found shelter. He'll bring hardship into her marriage, even to the breaking point, if it was in marriage she sought her salvation. Where ever it is we have sought life apart from him, he disrupts our plans, our "way of life" which is not life at all."

I was very obsessed when I was with Dan, to the point where he was my whole life, and I was slipping miserably away from friends, family and God. I loved him but it was not healthy for me or for him, or for anyone else.

Now I know what I need to do SS. I have my answer. And you were right all along, the answer is that I need to find my way home to God. That is where my future lies. He didn't forsake me and take away what I loved. He separated me from that which was not of him, so I could find my way home.

This is right isn't it SS?

I believe it is -
He wants you back, and works for that always.

I won't leave until Tues early afternoon. Maybe I can get in one or two more posts.

Weaver, God loves you, and knows what is best. Now when bad things happen to me, I ask "what do you want me to do, and how can we make the best of this?"

I used to wonder why such a terrible thing happened, and wish for the way things were before it happened.

Yes, I think that is the reason. You should feel a lot more peace now - though some feelings will linger and take a while to heal.

Finding our way home is often difficult, but it is worth it.

SS

2Long: Yeah. It was HoFS. And yeah… it’s really cool. I suspect there are many who are cheering for him. He’s had a long road. Longer than mine, and mine was plenty long enough.

for many months, I thought he was gone from my life forever.

I still don't know the whole story, the meeting, and so on. Someday.....?

I wrote about it, here on this thread, after SLH asked. I wasn’t using names yet then, so it was difficult to follow. He and I met at Penny’s second degree initiation party in January 2004. He picked me up at the airport. Before that, because I needed to know which strange man was safe to ride in a car with (though in Minneapolis, you’re safer than in many other places), he sent me a picture of himself. Just an average, slightly stiff family portrait. Him and three boys of various ages.

It hit me, that picture. I looked at it and every single one of my normal defenses against attractive men got caved in. An arrow? Yes, very much an arrow.

I was still utterly devoted to my ex then. I very nearly didn’t go to Penny’s party because of how that picture hit me. But it was Penny. How could I not?

There were many months of very, very careful maintaining of boundaries after that. I thought it would wear off, you know? But it didn’t. I finally told Penny that I could not be in the same physical space with him anymore, the last-ditch effort to avoid the worst fate I can currently imagine – participating in another affair.

So I didn’t see him from… hmmm. July through November of 2004. He started dating someone in late July, I think. His divorce had been final in January. In October, a few weeks before I saw him, my ex got engaged and I was finally free.

That November kiss I know I wrote about on this thread. It is not a cliché. Sometimes your knees really do give out when a kiss is a particular kind. I already knew that then. I knew it doubly afterwards. I wanted to keep kissing him. For a long, long time.

But… because of the way things were and the decisions he made, we agreed to NC. He wanted to explore his relationship. If I had contact with him, I was going to always want more. A lot more. So I let him go. It was hard. I loved him already. Love does not always grow where it should, you know. Sometimes it’s a weed growing up in the cracks of the sidewalk where it doesn’t belong. So I worked on rooting it out.

I give Penny a lot of credit. She heard, as far as I know, both sides of the whole thing. She counseled both of us to a path of ethical and compassionate behavior. It was really, really hard. It was also the honorable path, and I’m glad I took it.

So I went on about my dating, one date leading to another, eventually meeting the woman that I dated for five months. I thought HoFS was gone from my life completely, though there were occasional reminders. Some of them made me miss him all over again. I stuck, steadfastly, to my refusal to give in to those feelings, and worked to make NC that much more complete.

In July, the woman I’d been dating and I decided to go our separate ways. We were not on the same path, and didn’t want to be. It was an amiable breakup. A few tears, but really? We weren’t right for each other and we knew it. A week later, unknown to me, HoFS’ girlfriend broke up with him. Because of differences in their life paths that had become all too apparent, as well. Painful for him – very much so.

In late August, I found out about it. Not from Penny, but from a reference someone else gave me. A cryptic reference the other person didn’t understand, but I did. I’d already known about it before then. His … energy, his presence, was back in my life. In a way it had not been for many months. I kept… tripping over it.

Finally Penny and I talked about it. I asked her point-blank whether he’d broken up with his girlfriend. Her pause was just a little too long, and confirmed what I knew. She was relieved not to have been the one to spill the beans, I think. I ranted about him. His energy was… so warm.

Warm. Yes, very warm. Incredibly comfortable and peaceful. But… It hurt, too. Because I thought that he wasn’t interested in me. Some of his reasons for not being involved with me had to do with the obstacles between us. Six hours away. I wanted more kids, he didn’t. Four kids that already depend on one or the other to be a rational grownup. Situations with our ex-spouses that were anything but easy.

In the midst of a rant about him, Penny gently asked me if I wanted to see him. It stopped me cold. I had to really look at what I was feeling. Yes. Yes, I really very, very much wanted to see him. I missed him terribly.

Penny, dear soul that she is, was finally able to say “you know, there’s no reason -not- to call him anymore.” It was a little difficult, I think, to get us to actually speak to each other. Months of training had erected some pretty high walls. HoFS said it was like being an East German in 1989. After all those years, to be told there was no more need for that Wall? You don’t feel free. You feel scared out of your mind. What do you do when the boundaries aren’t there anymore?

I know I wrote about the walk in Penny’s labyrinth, and the phone ringing. The fear, the anxiety. Letting go of anything like the boundaries that I’d had before.

That was him calling. All the rest that I wrote about, that was him, too. It’s here, more or less, floating around. Either here or on my SYMC thread or on his. There are a few things that aren’t posted there, but the general broad outlines are there. There’s more to the story. We both keep remembering bits. If you keep asking, I’ll keep telling details. I’m like that. And it’s a story that I treasure.

Before you get too far, you need to decide what you want from your life. Once you know, it won't be hard to make the decisions.

I know what I want from my life. I have no idea how to create the image that I have in my head in real life. I don’t even know how to get all of the involved people into one place. But I know what I want and I have this feeling that if I’m open to it, it may very well happen.

It involves a whole lot of prosperity and abundance. The kind that you have – family, love, friends, land, laughter. And also the kind that you don’t have so much of, the kind that involves having financial planners on staff full time to keep track of where all the money is stashed. And there is more. Much, much more. Many tradeoffs, as you said. Some simple. Some extraordinarily complex and difficult and heartwrenching. I want to find a way. I want to talk about it with him. I find myself tongue-tied. Surely this should wait until after the second date? Surely.

It really is as good as you think it can be.

I know, Still Seeking. I know. At a bone-deep level. I know.

I would want to write, and If I spent time, I would break promises already made.

I think you and I talked about those promises once. In fact, I just went and found the e-mail where you talked about them. I understand. The invitation is still open. Always, in fact. I feel as though you are meant to be one of us. I’ll wait until you’re able to do so in good conscience. I seem… to have a certain amount of practice at that, these days.

Perhaps I will write her, but I hate to ask questions of her when her time is so valueable, and her help needed by so many.

You know, SS, there’s a flaw in that reasoning. You wouldn’t be writing to Penny to ask for her help. You would be writing as a friend, asking how she’s doing. Making that connection. It’s something that you do as naturally as breathing, my friend. I hope you eventually follow that vocation. It seems to call you. But whether you do or not, it seems to me that thinking you’re taking time away from her when in fact you would be providing her with the support of a friend who truly cares? It’s not the same, and you know it.

Thanks to you (You, and HoFS) for that excnange you wrote. It confirmed a lot of my thoughts about you - both.

You’re welcome. It was hard to decide to write it. It exposes a lot of both of us. At the same time, though, it seemed to me that there are very few people who have the capacity to write something like that, and to do it honestly and openly. A case study, I called it, when I was being a little less poetic. This is what happens when compassion is misplaced and then found again. Important to know what it looks like, even in the midst of something that seems minor, when you consider all the pain in this world. Maybe it’s easier to see why it’s so important when you look at it like that.

Binder, I read what you wrote with a heavy heart. Not the part about the gas stove. I’m glad about that part. Some of the rest of it, though, seems like you’re weary. Like maybe you’d be okay with laying some of the burden down, letting someone else carry it for a while. And I wish we could all sit around a real campfire too. I wonder how we could make that happen someday.

GC, are you having the party at your house someday? Is that the most central place?

Weaver, I didn’t realize you’d followed my story for so long. Then I looked at your registration date and I realized that you probably never saw the very first two threads I posted. I had them removed a long time ago. I have copies, but I don’t think anyone else does. They’d probably embarrass me if I looked at them now. I read through my long thread here not too long ago and just cringed. What a hash I made of my marriage at the end. I knew I was doing it – I was focused on saving my relationship with DD – and yet I still wince when I read through it. It took me a long time to become grounded and stable again. It seems like we should focus on that first when we work with people. It’s so very hard to get people to do it, though.

Anyway. I’m glad you’ve followed my story, and I’m glad it’s given you some hope. There are parts of it that give me hope, too.

Spent a long time with my boy (horse) this evening.

What is it about sitting on a silver horse in the light of a full moon that makes the world seem, if only for a moment, still and tranquil?

Did anybody get to see the moon this evening, immediately after it rose? Inspiring.

Thought of you all, my beloved friends.

slh

Well I’m up making some Rice Krispie squares for my daughter’s play school class tomorrow. They’re having a little birthday party for her as she recently turned 4. Get to use my almost new gas range……not exactly thrilling, but I genuinely like to cook, even something as pedestrian as Rice Krispie squares. By the way SLH, I took a look at the eastern sky to see the full moon…….brilliant. We already occasionally get the northern lights now so I’ll be watching for them too. The outdoors….God’s greatest temple.

SS…..don’t apologize for the inquiry……I need to think this through sooner or later and I likely have been focusing on my path or “goal” without tending to my “wounds”. I have to digest my life and decisions sooner or later and likely I’ve been staring ahead and forgetting about my gauges…….or more appropriately, flashing idiot lights.

Weaver, I’ve heard that too….. that guys take longer to fall in love and longer to fall out of love. Maybe there’s an evolutionary/natural selection component to that. Who knows…..I ain’t no anthropologist……..I’m more of an Australopithecus.

I am OK alone however. I’ve always been a bit of a loner at heart. STBX is extremely gregarious. She once logged over 800 min. of long distance calls one month. Keep in mind that those are only outgoing calls and does not capture the local calls or the incoming long distance calls. She need to stay connected, I need to disconnect. Likely had something to do with the motivation behind her bad choice. Couldn’t get through to the iceman. ~~sigh~~

JustJ…….happy to hear about your blossoming romance. You have one of the most interesting stories I’ve read. I wish I could have such an eclectic group of individuals to associate with her in my town. What I could learn! I know how I tend to pick my friends. Usually I have an affinity and surround myself with people that have certain desirable traits I lack. I tend to draw towards these people and attempt to mimic them to some degree as If I could mold my character through osmosis. It appears this is what draws me here to the campfire.

I didn’t realize it until you made the observation, but I think you’re right….I’m weary. I’m tired of the marriage now, tired of working 40+ hours a week and working harder once I’m off to raise my children. I’m tired of people’s indifference, I’m tired of trying to maintain this aging house and finish my cabin. I don’t run my life right now it runs me. I think I’ll have me a good old fashioned mid life crisis! Actually…..no. I will maintain my responsibilities. I just need a better time management system.

As an aside, a coworker was telling me about his SIL who works at our agency that is having an affair with her manager. I tried to give him the benefit of my experience and directed him to tell the BS about this site. I have no idea if he took the advice or not.

Anyways this same coworker is a fellow in his 30’s, has two beautiful sons and a gorgeous wife. He also has the benefit of her families’ wealth and lives in a huge shack in the burbs. I have the benefit of the agencies hand held computer that used to be assigned to him as I likely will be moving into that branch of the agency. (you know where this is going don’t you) He failed to delete the Emails in the deleted folder. Yup. He’s professing his love to another women in the agency and she to him. The pandemic continues.