Starving,
Nice of you to drop in. The nice thing about a campfire, is the comfort and friendship it provides.

Hope you come by again.

Aph.... What?

SS

Starvin' I thought about doing the 24 hour solo next year. I'd have to be one tough nut though.

I prefer swimming.

FF, I know the right person may come along. I don't sweat it. I know what to do.

GC

Well - while you all are still in a helpful mood, and all of you vacate this premise - here is an opportunity to help.

FF - i am a conflict avoider, probably somewhat passive agressive - and not looking forward to the next few steps.

We still have not de-cohabited. I do not look forward to it - but i know it must happen. But we are in a nice house, and the kids have friends, and it is a magical neighborhood. When we de-cohabit we will all live in little apartments, and be starting over. And I will be paying CS and probably some alimony (although I am shooting for 50/50 - but I do not know how it will fall). I just want to avoid all of that crap. But I gotta do it. I like XW less each day, and will eventually hate her if we continue too long. (no pun intended)

I am studying assertiveness on the internet, but I need to deal with the CA issue.

I feel pretty much like a wuss right now.



I still have a crush, but am nowhere near being able to do anything about it. Nice to have a little motivation, though!

I will keep the fire stoked, and the beer cold.

I sure appreciate you guys.

I, too, wanted to be dead. I am glad that I did not die, and that I am not dead.

I wrote a surfer analogy the other morning....

starving, I'm glad I could help you some. It's hard to know sometimes whether I help or not. Penny (Cerri) and I were talking about it the other day and we agreed that the more we learn about people and relationships, the less certain we are that telling someone any one thing (or anything at all) is actually the right thing to do. We've also both seen many situations when all we could do was offer what comfort we could -- places where there were no good answers at all, much less ones that the people who are involved will actually implement.

Still, I do feel as though just listening and offering a shoulder to cry on is a help to a lot of people. And treating people like they're sane when they're not sure they are seems to help some, too.

Now I'm going to go play with a new toy. It lets you take a picture of a room and paint it and put in new flooring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi J,

Take it easy on yourselves. The problem is that at least one party has usually checked out of the marriage before you come on the scene. You gave good advice and admittedly I didn't follow all of it. I was fine until you suggested Plan B instead of a legal separation. After months of pulling out my calendar while my H just sat there in front of the TV (sometimes he didn't speak to me for an entire day), I just didn't have the energy anymore. Plan B may have worked but I waited too long.

X used to make faces at the phone during our consults w/Cerri. While he was doing that, he'd tell her that it was going well, that he thought we'd make it, etc. How could she have known to tell me it was time for Plan B w/that kind of feedback?

Just last week, X was over here telling me that it was my fault that he is trapped. Here's a guy w/a live-in fiance (if not wife) and an OC. He truly believes that somehow I am responsible. Sigh.

The best revenge is living well. I took the kids on some cool trips this summer. Also went on some myself. X would come to pick up the kids and I'd have all my backpacking stuff or my mtn bike sitting in the living room. He always asked where I was going and w/whom. There he is, w/the GF who doesn't ride or hike or do anything (except screw) and a baby. I loved to say "well I was free of responsibilites this weekend so I'm going biking for 3 days". I'd then ask him to help me with the cooler.

Thanks for inviting me back,SS. Hope you all had a great weekend. Mine was full of music and just enough weirdness to keep things interesting, and that was just Saturday night. The rest was kid-centric.

SS,
What what?

ss, you have mail

Hi appy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi FF!

I was getting into a bit of a bad mood after reading here during lunch. Adultery sucks canal water.

But you saying hi is making it all better.

Back to work!

Hi Starving -

One thing we know is that it's time to separate and go to no contact long before anyone thinks it is. I usually start talking to people about it the first time they show up. Not to scare them -- but because it's something that they need to start thinking about. I know from my own experience that it's the hardest thing in the world. It feels so very WRONG to "walk away" from a spouse you love and a marriage you want to save. It took me almost a year -- and it should have taken me about fifteen minutes. If I'd separated, I suspect I would still be married now.

That's water under the bridge, though, and I don't beat myself up about other people's marriages. I help where I can and more and more I accept that there's very little that actually helps at all. As you say, by the time someone types "infidelity" into a Google search and finds a bulletin board to post on, things are usually pretty bad.

There's a large segment of marriage counselors and other marriage-focused folks (clergy, social services folks, researchers, policy wonks) who believe that it's much more effective and important to focus on educating people about what a good marriage is before there are any problems showing up. The Bush administration has supported this position, which has led to a charge that Republicans are trying to return us to the marital Stone Age and interfering in our private lives. That's unfortunate, I think; I like very little about the Bush administration (including how they've given out the money associated with this initiative), but the basic policy is, I think, correct.

See for more information about healthy marriages from the Govt's perspective.

I've thought several times about marriage education for people whose marriage have ended after an affair. We know that second marriages have an even higher failure rate than first marriages (about 10 to 15 percent higher). Some of that is probably due to the very high rate of failure of marriage that arise out of infidelity, but I don't know how much -- I've never seen any statistics on the fraction of second marriages that start as affairs.

Even so, though, second marriages, particularly those that involve kids, are much more complex than first marriages. It's inevitable that a second marriage -- with an ex and/or kids on one or both sides -- involves a whole lot more relationships that need to succeed at some level. We need to learn how to do that, and how to do the basic things that we may not have been good at the first time around. Lots of learning available there -- and no matter what else happens during the end of a marriage, I know that I learned more about relationships and people in the last four years than I had probably learned in the fifteen years before that. (Silver lining in dark clouds, ayup.)

I do wish there were better ways to teach kids (and I do mean kids) about marriage. We make them all take driver's education, after all, but marriage education is in that category of things with ethics and religion where, as a society, we seem to prefer that knowledge be passed from parents to children without going through society's filter. That's good in many cases -- and in many cases it leaves kids woefully unprepared.

Hmm. I went off on a bit of a tangent, there. In any case, starving, I'm pretty aware of the kinds of flaws there are in working with people -- your ex-husband making faces is only one of many examples like that. This expression: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> is something that comes through only lightly in voices, though it's tremendously apparent on people's faces. It's also the case that when we try to help someone on the boards, we're only hearing half the story -- and people inevitably miss details that are crucial to giving good advice.

That's one reason that more and more I focus on the person who's actually posting. Their ability to stay grounded and focused on their own stuff, and their ability to make compassionate, rational decisions, is the only thing I can influence. Even those things are very difficult to get to. But they're still more likely to succeed than the "how do I get him/her to change?" stuff.

Because the answer to that is, "You change. Then we'll see what happens around you. And then you can make decisions from there."

Going hiking/biking while your ex stays home with his choices? Good for you. Say, what's the best thing that could happen to your ex, his new wife/fiance, and their child, you, and your kids? In all this mess at this point and with all these factors, is there a situation that you can see that would be healthiest for everyone?

Oh and one of the best resources for marriage education is http://www.smartmarriages.com/. I read their mailing list. It's full of good stuff.

Hi !

I see the fire didn't go out. That is good.

SS

SS et al

I'm fixin' to post an update "out there" (waving madly in the general direcion of the main board).

- Kimmy

Congratulations, Kimmy, on your outcome!

I wish I had a more children. Funny how these things work. Your H's A gave you more children. My W's A prevented us/me from having more - they would have interfered with her VLTA.

Happy for you, though.

I wish I had more kids, too. But I'm really glad Kimmy's got some to take care of -- and that they have her! I'd love for more kids to have parents as loving as her and Wookie. (And fewer kids to have to live with neglect and abuse.)

I could forward a couple of kidlets...but they're only loaners....you can give them back when they're being good!

;-)

Deal, I'll send them back when their college education is all paid for!

Kids are a lot like marriage.
Lots of work, but there is joy in it if it's done right. Sometimes heartache, sometimes hardship, but joy too, much of the time.

Aph, do you have any of that joy back in your marriage?

SS

If anyone has a few spare kids, I can probably find a home for 'em. Don't tell HoFS, though. He gets all worried about puppies and kids and stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chuckle, Chuckle........

SS

An out of sequence update from a couple of weeks ago.

This weekend [actually it was three weeks ago] with HoFS and his boys was utterly fantastic. Saturday in particular.

We started with waking up in each other's arms at about 6am. Or at least, that's my best guess. But we've been together for long enough that we did the only sane thing available -- got up, went to the bathroom, and went back to sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I woke up again about two hours later when HoFS came back to bed and kissed me and said that the water was on for our shower.

What a man. I do love him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We showered together (not as long as we'd have liked) and then went down to breakfast. Pancakes for breakfast, woohoo!

While HoFS took his oldest to an appointment, the younger two went off to their mom's to clean the barn at her house (They have chickens that they raise for 4-H. A really cool project, it seems to me.) and I gathered up branches and leaves that HoFS had trimmed from the bushes in the front yard and talked to Cerri on the phone. It felt really good to get some exercise. And so nice to talk to Cerri, though she wasn't exactly a happy camper just then. I don't get to talk to her very often, these days, though, so even when she's very sad and upset, I'm glad to hear her voice.

When the boys got back, we made these fantastic grilled tortillas for lunch.

Grown-up version: Take a tortilla (preferrably whole wheat), top it with mozarella cheese, parmesan cheese, basil, oregano, red pepper flakes, and garlic powder. Top that with the ripest, freshest, juiciest tomato slices you can find, then pop it on the grill for five minutes.

Kid version: Same thing, but make it like pizza. Pizza sauce, spices as above, cheese, and then whatever you want -- pepperoni, ham, etc.

Oh. My. God. they were good. I ate two. Way more than I needed. But it made me happy. We had sliced veggies and I had hot apple cider to drink with it.

If anyone's ever heard of Za'atar, that would be wonderful on it. (I'm referring to the spice mix called Za'atar, not Syrian hyssop, which I've never had. For those who don't know it, the spice mix version is one of the best spice mixes I've ever had. It varies some, but usually has sesame seeds, thyme, marjoram, sumac, sometimes Syrian hyssop, salt and pepper and other things too.)

After lunch something insane happened -- HoFS' younger two boys wanted us to play flag football.... and I -did-. I think the last time I played flag football I was in high school and I was forced to do it in gym class. That would make it 20+ years ago. Sheesh.

So we played, us against them. They claimed that I cheated because the youngest couldn't grab my flag after I recovered a fumble and ran for a touchdown. I say we won fair and square even if my flag was around in front instead of hanging down where it was supposed to be. Stuff happens when you're rolling around on the ground like that.

After I declared the game over even though the boys wanted to keep playing (I suspect HoFS would've kept going, too), I dragged my aching and shaky bones upstairs and made it as far as the bed. I'd sorta intended to get in the shower, but, well... you know. These things happen. So HoFS found me lying on his bed, salty, sweaty, and only partially clothed. I'll leave the rest to your fertile imaginations and yes, it was every bit as good as you think it was... and then some. Afterwards, we took a long, hot shower.

I will also note that it is now Monday evening and I -still- have sore muscles. The worst of it is my left leg, which I've been unable to lift correctly since about ten minutes into the game. Ah, well. I did have fun, even though I'm terrible at and usually refuse to participate in things like that.

So where was I? Oh yes, in the shower. Right. So I managed to make it back out of the shower and downstairs, and everyone set about making dinner. HoFS and I had our by-now-standard salmon with honey-dill-butter sauce. HoFS Middle Son (HMS) made the steaks for the boys and baked the potatoes. I sauteed the veggies for me and HoFS (onion, carrot, broccoli, and green pepper with olive oil and sun dried tomatoes, dry mustard, salt, and honey) and HMS. HOS and HYS (oldest and youngest) had raw veggies. We had something of a sociable chat at dinner time.

Then there was quiet time for a while, I think. Or really, all through that was quiet time. Sitting on the couch, me playing a silly video game and him looking through decorating magazines for ideas for his living room.

OH! That reminds me. Must send pictures to Cerri so that she can give him decorating advice.

.....

Wow. That was a REALLY long distraction. My oh my, the places my brain can go.

Sheeesh.

Anyway.

After dinner we rested for a while. And then we made the jumbalaya for the church picnic for the next day. It was, I'm told, too spicy for an Ohio church picnic. (Is anyone here surprised? Only that it was just the FOOD that was too spicy? MMMmhmmmmm. Me too.)

We also made cole slaw from one of the recipes HoFS came home with that morning. Huh. When was it that we went to the grocery store to get the ingredients? Oh. Oh!!

Right! I forgot. After the shower and before dinner was going to church to talk to God.

I had a hilarious experience while I was there. The Goddess showed up and told me She was there but made me promise not to tell anyone there. She thought it was a great joke. I nearly giggled out loud right in the middle of communion.

And the Presence there, no matter what it was, was truly amazing. What a sense of peace!

Anyway. Back to making the cole slaw. We went to the grocery store after church and then went home to cook dinner.

The cole slaw had giant red grapes in it. We decided later that people probably thought they were olives and skipped the dish. Oh well. It was pretty good cole slaw and I really liked the jumbalaya.

It was really good to spend so much time in the kitchen with HoFS this weekend. We both love to cook and we don't get to do quite that much of it very often. I hope that when we have a B&B someday when we're elderly, we'll get to do some kind of cooking together for a couple of hours every day or so. I think we'd both enjoy that a lot.

(In fact, if we just repeated Saturday fairly often, we'd both be pretty happy.)

Then it was getting on towards 10pm and we hadn't had dessert. So we got out one of the chocolate fondue bars from The Melting Pot (a souvenir of our anniversary dinner at the end of August) and we and the boys proceeded to eat melted chocolate on strawberries, banana slices, pineapple, and marshmallows. I showed HoFS how to make marshmallow fluff. He showed me how to stick your tongue all the way through a marshmallow.

And after that completely hilarious interlude, we staggered our way upstairs to bed. But it wasn't quite time for sleep yet. HoFS brought his guitar and played for a while, and I wrote him a note about something he'd asked me to write about.

And finally, many happy hours after our day had begun, we turned off the light and ended our day as it had begun. On our left sides, his left arm under my neck and around my shoulder, his right arm over my side and across my chest. Spooning, they call it? I call it heaven. Wrapped up safe and warm in his arms, every part of my existence contented and relaxed.

It really does get better.