Sam Harris calls this a "moral and intellectual emergency"... and it's happening in this country right now, in scary proportions.

I was raised in a religious family. I stopped going 2 church "suddenly" when I was 21.

I felt the "gap" for about 3 years, I think. Followed by a period of hostility 2ward organized religion, followed by an acceptance of our differences - though I admit that I sometimes get pretty annoyed at "willful ignorance."

When individuals experience the truly liberating quality of taking responsibility for their own life choices and the consequences of those choices, then the gap closes.

-ol' 2long

Interesting conversation.

I think a lot of Christians stick their head in the sand about current events. I happen to work with a Christian group that is preparing for the next terrorist attack, by preparing emergency workers and lay people to deal with a mass critical incident. Our leaders and teams are typically the first contacted for spiritual support when major disasters occur. I do not know if the next terrorist attack is coming - but it is amazing how naive we ("Amuricans") are about how easy it would be to pull off a nationwide attack that would far outdo 9/11. Or maybe that is "the end is here" hype. I think there is a definite risk. Intel from the top indicates it is a given.

I know that Christianity gets a lot of drunks and drug addicts out of the hole. Possibly a lot of other social activities do, too. But I see thousands of faces a week, and at least hundreds, if not thousands, are living a Christian life as an alternative to a former life. And that is just one group of people. (although I believe that a critical step is left out in much Christian counseling regarding marriage. Yes, prayer is important, but I think Harley and concrete programs are left out too often).

But even the good Christian kids wonder about the big questions. I can see a viable case for the notion that humanity created God. I wonder sometimes if He is there. So did Mother Theresa. I think Billy Graham has, at times, questioned God.

I have not read the mentioned books. For me - I do not need that right now. Even with my doubts, I sometimes “feel” like I feel the hand of God. And my ex had prophetic dreams. (she dreamt about the first space shuttle explosion two weeks before the event, and many other events). I am curious to see if intelligent design can get some credence, but the whack jobs are gonna make that a tough battle.

I do not intend to begin a religious debate here.

I respect each of you for where you stand, and am honored and proud to count you as my friends. I look forward to meeting some of you in July. I sure appreciate your obvious mutual consideration of one’s beliefs. 2long – it will be good to shake your paw. Oh - I am watching BSG online. I am in the middle of season 2. The cylon just killed the admiral. Riveting stuff. And people laugh at me when I tell them I watch it. But I love it!

Hey – the dead sea scrolls will be in San Diego in May! I am excited to see that!

far

I can't imagine belief without doubt. A few seem to have this but it'll never happen for me.

>A few seem to have this but it'll never happen for me.

It's okay GC. Really.

It's what makes you, you.

Better (imo) to question than to be a lemming.

Thomas was my favorite disciple! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

One Saturday morning catechism the Sister was telling us about when Christ appeared to the disciples and Thomas wasn't there. I asked where he was. She said he was out getting a hamburger.

I still remember that almost every time I hit McD's.

I still debate with myself whether I should give up hamburgers every lent, but I never do.

Agreed and I don't know anyone personally that does that. As you friends know I am a believer. I love God. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am not a "religious" person. My faith gets me through the good and bad times. I think the danger is having no belief or faith in anything. I am not pushing MY faith or beliefs here btw.

Belief without doubt would mean you are not human. Everyone doubts at times. My dearest, dearest friend and my mentor when I first became a Christian is having serious doubts right now. Read some of Dr. Dobson's "When God doesn't Make Sense" and you will hear of his doubts.

AMEN! Ironically this is often why some waywards never get it, kind of like FAR's ex right FAR?

I've been meaning to read Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith".

I have doubted too - but when I doubt, I think.

I think about all that has happened to me. I think about the touch in my mind when I pray. I think about the times I have felt Gods love and how real it is. It nearly always comes again then, and comforts me.

It's hard to explain really - like trying to explain love maybe. When you love someone, what is it really? Is it real?

I respect other beliefs, how can we not if we care about others? I can't explain some things. I don't understand some things, but still, God is on the other end of prayer, and I know it.

I am very glad I know everyone here, I have learned much from all of you.

Thanks.

SS

You are banging the nail right on the head, Faith.

Many times in the last two or three days she has said/done things that shows that she "does not get it, and does not get that she does not get it."

Interesting - no pain with her any more. But she is still a PITA. Gonna be for a long time, methinks.

A old friend wrote today - her husband confessed to an A yesterday. Second time. She does not feel she wants to try again. I told her to come here. She feels God placed me on her path for this. We re-united about three weeks ago, after not talking for 17 or 18 years. She was living a seemingly happy life, till yesterday.

I am praying for her.

On the episode tonight - Admiral Adama urged over his ship-wide PA for those who believed in prayer to pray for the dying president, and for those who were not inclined that they join him in thinking positive thoughts for her. She was miraculously healed.

Pray for my friend, if you will.

far

As do I, but what is God?

I'm not asking you for your definition, I realize that is personal and may be beyond explanation in our limited vocabulary. This is what I ask myself.

To GB, God is the collective consciousness of the universe, and how evolved we are shows in the sickness or health of a society, family, etc. As I understand him to mean anyway. I grew up believing that God was love. Even my mom took the Bible in a metaphorical sense, not literal.

When things such as my belief system stop making any kind of logical sense to me, I start searching again...but it never strays too far from the idea that there is a higher power in and among us that unites us and pushes us to reach for the divine and our greater good.

One thing I liked about that book I read was that it helped me to understand "natural selection" a little bit. In my small understanding I get that we have no choice but to evolve, not only physically but mentally, and I take that to mean spiritually as well.

You could say I change my beliefs to accomodate my doubts. I don't know if that is sappy or not, but it seems to me to be better than abandoning the belief altogether.

I love reading about what different people believe. And HHDL's beliefs are incredible to read about.

Do you know that he is so holy, so good, and so filled with absolute love that people literally fall to their feet in tears in his presence. The peace he radiates is that awesome.

I would call him "inspired", wouldn't you 2long?

SS, you are a very beatiful person, and very inspiring to me.

It seems like we all believe things so similar, but as you say the meaning gets lost in our very, limited ability to define it in our human language. But the heart knows, it needs no words to understand.

Yep.

I was watching an interview with him on Charlie Rose a 2ple of years ago. He had such moving answers 2 "simple conversational questions" from Charlie Rose, it was absolutely riveting. I remember my W walked in 2ward the end of the program and asked who it was being interviewed. When I told her, she made some derogatory remark of some kind I don't remember off hand.

...and then she heard the first full question and answer. And she got quiet, and sat down until the end of the program.

Yep. That's inspiration.

-ol' 2long

We're lucky to live at the same time as

H.is
H.oliness the (14th)
D.alai
L.ama

Holy Smokes, am I glad Ti doesn't work in building 44 at NASA anymore!


slh

Sometimes this world is not a nice place.

Hope everyone is well, and has a wonderful weekend.

SS

It's been an amazing weekend here in SoTex -- great food and fishing and friends. How has everyone else been?

We are planning on going camping next month near the Frio river -- real primitive, with the exception of the must-have coffee percolator. Any suggestions for things we need to bring for three kiddos and a nature-challenged husband (one who prefers *I* clean our fish catches, LOL?)?

slh