Suzet* I will expand on what Forevehers said in his post when he mentioned that your H is inadvertedly depositing great amounts in his woman friend's love bank. FH mentioned that the feelings of love that your H's friend might develop for him may turn out to be one-sided. This may be good for your marriage BUT this is definitely not good for the woman and her marriage. In other words, your H may [unintentionally] become this woman's OM. Please let your H know that a woman can fall in love with a man without him seeking it. Is it possible for you to develop a friendly dialog with your H's female friend?

Recovering H,

Thanks for the post. You did give me some points to ponder. Especially the following was insightful and shows it can be just as hard for a BH to recover from the EA part as the PA part of their W’s A:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Initially, at least for me, the PA was the hardest part for me to deal with. However, when I realized how easy it could have been for me to fall into the A trap, it was then the EA part that hurt so much. Plus, now, 8 months after dday, I see how hard it was for onlywords to get over the EA part.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember the thing that was the most hurtful to my H after my EA ended, was the fact that I developed feelings for another man and struggled so much to get rid of those feelings. My H said although I didn’t betray him physically and although he have much appreciation for this, it was however very painful to know that he (my H) wasn’t the only man who had a place in my heart. I can understand this and this is probably why I feel so concerned that my H will develop those feelings for another women.

I understand all men are different. This is true and as you’ve said, I know my H the best, but it is however helpful and insightful to get insight into the thoughts and feelings of other BS’s as well. This helps because I can get some very honest and straight forward feedback about things my H probably won’t share with me or be totally honest about out of fear that it will hurt me. Because my H is such a kind and soft-hearted person and a conflict avoider on top of it, he have the tendency to sometimes rather keep quiet if he thinks something he says might hurt my feelings. In some way this is also my own fault because I tend to be a very sensitive, emotional and "thin skinned" person. Sometimes this is very frustrating and makes communication difficult, but in general I would say our communication is good.

Suzet

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

2T2B –

Thanks for your good wishes! Yes, my H has not had any luck finding another job… Next month will be a YEAR since he has lost his job, so the past year was difficult for both of us. A few months back my H started his own computer company and things are progressing slowly but surely. The friend’s H also has a computer company (a settled company for 5 years now) and recently he asked my H to go into a partnership with him. In a way this is a good thing, because this will implicate that my H will also become good friends with this man and not just his W. I think it’s always a good thing if someone is friends with both the spouses and I think this also reduce the chances for an inappropriate relationship or attachment from developing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many people are in a position where they deal with troubled people. Some can not handle this without developing emotional attachments and others can't. I think your husband's experience as a union leader demostrates his ability in this area. Has he had problems in the past becoming to emotionally involved when people bring problems to him?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true and I think you’re correct regarding your observation about my H… I know these things, but as you’ve said, my sensitivity regarding potential problems that can arise from a relationship like this are normal and I think this & my insecurities plays a big role in my concerns about this friendship.

No, my H hasn’t had any problems in the past regarding emotional involvement with troubled people and I guess this must give me some extra reassurance! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TMCM –

I will discuss what you’ve said with my H. Yes, it is possible for me to develop a friendly dialog with the lady. I had a few conversations with her in the past and she seems like a pleasant person. She asked a few times that me and H must come and visit, so I’m definitely in a position to develop a connection with her.

Suzet

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have the following concerns and questions: 1. Although I know this lady doesn’t have any hidden agendas and only view my H as a friend and confidant to talk to at this stage, I’m however concerned this lady will start to develop inappropriate feelings for my H on some point… I feel my H unconsciously fill some EN’s for her (communication, respect, kindness, attentiveness etc.) which in probably lacking in her M and things she doesn’t always receive from her H. Will my H’s current appropriate and ‘just friendly’ behavior towards her be enough to prevent her from developing this type of feelings for him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am afraid you know the rules as well as I do and it appears your husband is treading in water deeper than he should be in. Affairs all start out as friendships in this very same manner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. I talked to my H yesterday evening and he assured me that I don’t have to worry that he will ever develop romantic feelings for anyone else since he love me with his whole heart and will never have a place in his heart for any other woman… I believe my H when he says this… And I trust my H and I appreciate the fact that he is so honest and open about this friendship, but I’m still concerned he might develop feelings for her on some point too. Maybe I’m only somewhat jealous or maybe it’s just my own insecurities? I don’t know. Or maybe I’m just overly concerned or paranoid because I have been in an opposite sex friendship myself and have developed these romantic and inappropriate feelings… I know the dangers and I know how easily boundaries can be crossed from platonic frienship into something more, and now I’m afraid the same might happen to my H

After we talked yesterday, my H said to me he know the dangers and learned from my experience as well and I don't have to worry, but is knowledge and awareness about this and appropriate behavior during all times enough to prevent him from developing feelings for her? Or am I just paranoid or overly concerned and am I just projecting my own fears and past mistakes on my H because I’m afraid the same might happen to him? Do I have reason to feel concerned about this or must I give it a rest? I just care so much about my H and M and don't want something to went wrong again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Accidental Affairs are what they are. Nobody intends them to happen and before you know it, emotions are running high. I was impressed with Foreverher's reply to you. He has a full understand of the problems of relationships and so do you.

A wise person once told me, "If you walk on the river's edge, you are bound to fall in!"

It might not hurt for you to get to know her better, but it is all the one-on-one time that will bite you even if you know her. He needs to back off and he needs to keep it strictly business with no husband complaint talk, etc.

Out of respect for you, your husband needs to alter his pattern with this woman, I believe.

Yes, Suzet, strong fighting and moral minded BS's can feel a sense of, "If my FWS can do it and enjoy it, so can I". It does ad excitement to a person's life. Maybe, as preventative medicine, you should begin courting your husband more than normal. Go the extra mile to fill his EN's at this time, especially ad a little spice to your SF activities since that seems to be the most important EN for men. It is just a thought. Keep us posted.

TooSoon

Toosoon, thanks for your input.

I’ll give a full update tomorrow.

Have a nice day everyone,
Suzet

Suzet:

I had a different more lengthy post ready to post but my hard disk completely crashed so I lossed the better post. This weekend was installing a new hard drive and trying to put the computer back together.

I wish it was that easy when my marriage crashed, you just buy a new one and install it.
I keep thinking of the childhood Humpty Dumpty Poem and how it equates to marriage and affairs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses, And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again"!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find it difficult to put all the pieces back together again. No matter how you put it back together, it remains cracked and broken. The thought never seems to go completely away.

Even you Suzet remains bothered by your own actions and worry your husband is now falling into the same trap. I hope he is not, but he needs to be very careful. Protect your marriage the best you can.

Suzet, you are a very sincere and helpful person, who like my wife, simply got in over your head. Before you two knew it, you were hooked on "love".

In the past, I remember talking on the chat lines and getting somewhat emotionally attached to a woman but I never pursued anything
beyond the fake name and the nightly talks. I cut it off because it was useless and it didn't feel right. I wan't in love either but I could feel the connection so I know how easy it can happen. I don't set myself up for it today because of the hassle and damage it can cause.

TooSoon

Thanks again Toosoon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Even you Suzet remains bothered by your own actions and worry your husband is now falling into the same trap. I hope he is not, but he needs to be very careful. Protect your marriage the best you can.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although I’m completely aware now why and how my EA happened, and aware of my own possible personal weakness towards the opposite sex, I’m still very much on ‘guard’ and I know I will never allow any personal one-of-one discussions or close friendships with someone of the opposite sex again. I won’t even trust any private e-mailing or chatting on Internet. The possible consequences are just too painful for everyone. I consider open forums like this, the only place to have safe and appropriate discussions and feedback from men. My friendship with OM became inappropriate mostly through e-mail - I considered a computer to be relatively safe, so it was a shock to experience how easy it was to become attached and develop intense feelings through just a computer screen.

I become emotionally attached to troubled people very easily and I’m not sure why it's like this. My friendship with OM also start out with support and encouragement during his difficult circumstances at work and I started to care too much about him. I know my H doen’t have the same tendency than me to become emotionally attached while helping and supporting people, and as 2T2B have said, my H’s experience as a union leader demonstrates his ability in this area and I know he hadn’t have problems in the past becoming emotionally involved with any of the women he dealt with. This gives me some peace of mind although I’m aware that anyone (even my H) can be at risk if not cautious and careful. But it also helps to know that my H learned from my experience and are aware of the possible dangers.

Friday night we went out for dinner with both the lady and her H and it was the first time I had enough time to talk to her and get to know her better. My H and her H will be going into a partnership (business) together soon and there is a lot of things they still have to discuss. This will also allow more contact with both her and her H and I will be much more comfortable if me and my H can form a friendship with both of them together. During the dinner, it was easy for me and this lady to connect and as I also watched the interactions between her and my H, I must honestly say I couldn’t detect anything suspicious at all on this point. The lady appeared to be very open & spontaneous towards both me and my H. On one stage me and the lady went to the restroom together and during our conversation she said to me: You know ‘Suzet, I wish my H felt the way towards me as your H feels towards you… It’s so obvious how much your H loves you and he always have good things to say about you.”. This gave me some extra reassurance and showed that my H gives out a good image of our M and relationship with each other when I’m not present.

I discussed this whole issue with my H again this weekend and he understands my uneasiness with one-on-one coffee breaks with her. I said that I trust him and his ability to handle this correctly, but that there is always a chance for someone of the opposite sex to develop feelings for him in spite of his good intentions etc. and that he must always be on ‘guard’ and aware of the fact that these things can happen to good people as well. I guess our open discussion about this gave me some extra peace of mind and I don’t feel so uncertain & insecure about this anymore.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Although I’m completely aware now why and how my EA happened, and aware of my own possible personal weakness towards the opposite sex, I’m still very much on ‘guard’ and I know I will never allow any personal one-of-one discussions or close friendships with someone of the opposite sex again. I won’t even trust any private e-mailing or chatting on Internet. The possible consequences are just too painful for everyone. I consider open forums like this, the only place to have safe and appropriate discussions and feedback from men. My friendship with OM became inappropriate mostly through e-mail - I considered a computer to be relatively safe, so it was a shock to experience how easy it was to become attached and develop intense feelings through just a computer screen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzet: You are a very smart woman. You know how easy it is to fall prey to run away emotions from the words online. We all have are weaknesses and we all want are self esteem built up and if someone makes you feel good online, it could bring out pent up emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I become emotionally attached to troubled people very easily and I’m not sure why it's like this. My friendship with OM also start out with support and encouragement during his difficult circumstances at work and I started to care too much about him. I know my H doen’t have the same tendency than me to become emotionally attached while helping and supporting people, and as 2T2B have said, my H’s experience as a union leader demonstrates his ability in this area and I know he hadn’t have problems in the past becoming emotionally involved with any of the women he dealt with. This gives me some peace of mind although I’m aware that anyone (even my H) can be at risk if not cautious and careful. But it also helps to know that my H learned from my experience and are aware of the possible dangers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have compassion for people and you have the ability to empathize with people in need. You come across very soothing to us guys in our time of despair. Please continue helping the so many that you do. Men, like your husband, can hear the same story about someone and not feel the same thing. It might go back to your childhood troubles and your unfulfilled needs back then. Besides, men don't show the emotions that women can and do have and show. It does sound like you are married to a very good man who was understanding and forgiving of your past weakness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Friday night we went out for dinner with both the lady and her H and it was the first time I had enough time to talk to her and get to know her better. My H and her H will be going into a partnership (business) together soon and there is a lot of things they still have to discuss. This will also allow more contact with both her and her H and I will be much more comfortable if me and my H can form a friendship with both of them together. During the dinner, it was easy for me and this lady to connect and as I also watched the interactions between her and my H, I must honestly say I couldn’t detect anything suspicious at all on this point. The lady appeared to be very open & spontaneous towards both me and my H. On one stage me and the lady went to the restroom together and during our conversation she said to me: You know ‘Suzet, I wish my H felt the way towards me as your H feels towards you… It’s so obvious how much your H loves you and he always have good things to say about you.”. This gave me some extra reassurance and showed that my H gives out a good image of our M and relationship with each other when I’m not present. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She sounds like a nice lady who doesn't have any intentions of going after your husband. Keep yourself visable to her and befriend her to make it more difficult for her to hurt the partnership, yourself, and your marriage. The more at stake, the less chance for them to want to ruin it, I would think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I discussed this whole issue with my H again this weekend and he understands my uneasiness with one-on-one coffee breaks with her. I said that I trust him and his ability to handle this correctly, but that there is always a chance for someone of the opposite sex to develop feelings for him in spite of his good intentions etc. and that he must always be on ‘guard’ and aware of the fact that these things can happen to good people as well. I guess our open discussion about this gave me some extra peace of mind and I don’t feel so uncertain & insecure about this anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you made him aware of your concern and it sounds like he is not mocking you or making fun of you being paranoid. Based on this, he is not trying to disguise a hidden agenda by making you feel stupid. I think your marriage will be ok. Your bried EA may have instilled some insecurities in yourself. I hope by talking with a few of us that it helps you overcome this fear. Keep us posted and don't worry. Your husband and you communicate well and if there are no other concerning signs, don't worry for all the wrong reasons. Take care.

TooSoon

Suzet:

I was reading this and it applies to your situation. You know this but it can be a friendly reminder. I hope it helps you explain to your H the importance of being extra careful.

An Article by Shirley Glass
author of Not "Just Friends": Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal
Read the article



About the author:
Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D., is a licensed psychologist with a diplomate in family psychology. She is also a licensed marriage and family therapist and a fellow of the American Psychological Association. The New York Times has referred to Dr. Glass as "the godmother of infidelity research." She has been conducting research on extramarital relationships since 1975. In addition, she has learned about the trauma of infidelity from the couples she has treated in her private practice in the Baltimore area. Her relationship expertise has made her a media favorite who is frequently cited in USA Today, the Los Angeles Times, Psychology Today, Redbook, Glamour, Ladies' Home Journal, Men's Health, and Newsweek. She has appeared on Good Morning America, Oprah, Today, and Fresh Air on NPR. She has been married for more than forty years and has three adult children.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article:


Seven Tips for Preventing Infidelity

By Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. author of NOT "Just Friends": Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal

Maintain appropriate walls and windows. Keep the windows open at home. Put up privacy walls with others who could threaten your marriage.

Recognize that work can be a danger zone. Don't lunch alone or take coffee breaks with the same person all the time. When you travel with a co-worker, meet in public rooms, not in a room with a bed.

Avoid emotional intimacy with attractive alternatives to your committed relationship. Resist the desire to rescue an unhappy soul who pours his or her heart out to you.

Protect your marriage by discussing relationship issues at home. If you do need to talk to someone else about your marriage, be sure that person is a friend of the marriage. If the friend disparages marriage, respond with something positive about your own relationship.
Keep old flames from reigniting. If a former lover is coming to the class reunion, invite your partner to come along. If you value your marriage, think twice about having lunch with an old flame.

Don't go over the line when you're on-line with Internet friends. Discuss your online friendships with your partner and show him/her your e-mail if he/she is interested. Invite your partner to join in your correspondence so your Internet friend won't get any wrong ideas. Don't exchange sexual fantasies online.

Make sure your social network is supportive of your marriage. Surround yourself with friends who are happily married and who don't believe in fooling around.

Copyright © 2003 Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D.

Toosoon,

Thanks so much for the ‘reminder’! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Any extra information is always helpful and I will print the article out and give it to my H to read.

Thanks also for your other post. I want to reply on some things you’ve said. Today was a bit hectic at work and I will go home in an hour’s time. I will probably find time to respond tomorrow.

I appreciate your concern and advice. It does help to talk to the posters around here and to receive some objective insight and perspectives. Thanks again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care and God bless,
Suzet

http://www.surviving-infidelity-kit.com/

Suzet:

I have printed this before but I can't remember if you saw it or not. There is one great article after another and they are so nicely catagorized. I actually printed two articles tonight and read them to my wife, since she seemed to be having a little post affair blues today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/health/march99/infid033099.htm

http://www.adulthoodwonderful.com/survive%20affairs/grass%20is%20not%20greener.htm

I needed to remind her that her love she felt for the OM was based on her perception of the OM, not as the man he really is in a real world environment. What is weird is I don't feel jealous when I hear her talk about it anymore. It has become more clinical and matter of fact now, it seems. I would still be devistated if she left me for him today but I know I could handle it better than I did before. I have come to realize, it truly takes two to keep a marriage together that I can't force her to love me or stay with me. I even told her today, if she ever feels like she doesn't want to stay married, she has the freedom to leave anytime. Later, I said I was sorry for saying that and I thought my defense mechanism went up immediately. Us humans will say or do anything to prevent the feelings of strong pain.

My wife says she is not going anywhere but she has those days of past memories of the OM and it forces me to think about what could have happened and what could still happen today. Nothing is secure in a marriage after an affair.

Take care,

TooSoon

Suzet - haven't read all other posst's so I am not sure if this has been suggested. Please read Excerpt from Book Not Just friends .

You may wish to buy the book for H if you think the book can help. Cheers RM

RenaissanceMan –

Thanks for the link! I have read many of Shirley Glass’s articles or extractions from the book on the Internet, but I haven’t yet bought or read the whole book.

Toosoon,

Thanks to you as well for the extra links! I haven’t seen any of those articles before. I especially like the first link with all the nicely categorized articles. The articles seems very insightful and I think many of those articles can also help me to gain further & better insight into myself; what happened etc. I also love to read articles like this to my H. My H doesn’t like to read much himself, but he enjoys if I read stuff like this to him.

The following from the 2nd link was very striking and SO, SO true:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Falling in love is obviously not confined to infidelity. Most contemporary marriages start out with romantic love. But, therapists say, couples have to grow up and understand that "feelings of love are neither steady nor constant but travel in natural cycles," as Abrahms Spring puts it. "If your relationship doesn't live up to your ideas about love, the problem may be not with your relationship but with your ideas," she writes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high… These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off… When the WS then get involved with someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I thought the same thing after my EA ended, but I have learn and grow and realized that I was indeed “in love” with my H, but in a more mature way.

To explain this better: Dr Phil once said there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love... He said spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable. To use his exact words: The partner in a long & committed R became “the soft place to fall”. This is so true. My H is indeed my soft place to fall… He is the only one who knows ALL about me – he knows all my strengths & weaknesses, he knows the beautiful parts about me and the ugly parts; he knows me on by “down” days and my “good” days – but he still loves me and excepts me just the way I am, with ALL my faults and flaws. This is wonderful!

In an earlier post you've said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you made him aware of your concern and it sounds like he is not mocking you or making fun of you being paranoid. Based on this, he is not trying to disguise a hidden agenda by making you feel stupid. I think your marriage will be ok. Your bried EA may have instilled some insecurities in yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I’ve said to you before, I have much more confidence & trust in my H after this weekend and after our honest discussion, but you’re right, my EA have indeed instilled some insecurities in me... The following from a previous post (I send it a year ago) will give you some better understanding:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My biggest fear right now: I’m afraid that one day my H will experience the same attraction towards a woman as I’ve experienced towards OM. Sometimes women at work like to confide in my H because he is a good-natured and caring person. Although my H regularly reassures me that he will never feel the same special feelings towards anyone else than me, I’m still afraid that someday it might happen. This type of fear is not because I don’t trust my H or doubt him, but because I’m afraid that one day I will by ‘punished’ for my sins or ‘test by the devil’. I know this is irrational and that my H and God have forgiven me, but I just try explain what is sometimes going on in my head.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After this, I received the following reply from ForeverHers:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for your comment about the fear of a potential future affair on the part of your husband....more of Satan's lies.

"You weren't strong enough, so what makes you think that your husband won't do the same?"

Suzet, if you want "protection" against such an occurance for either yourself or your husband, then the answer is quite simple. In fact, it's probably something that you have learned the "hard way." I know it's true for my wife and me.

IF you maintain a close walk with Christ, you won't fall prey to the schemes of Satan or the enticements of this fallen world. It's when we start thinking that we don't need God every day and start doing things "our way" that we open the door to possible trouble.

When you lead a Spririt-controlled life, you begin to put on the full armor of God. You can end all fear of Satan's influence because God IS faithfull to all his promises to you.

So rest easy. Walk with God each DAY and leave concerns about the future in God's hands.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sometimes helps to go back to my previous posts and read helpful responses like the one above again... Then I realize that I must work harder on my relationship with God and ALWAYS put ALL my trust in Him and not living a life of self-doubt and fear... This walk is not always easy or without struggles or ‘lies’ from Satan, but it is the only way to have salvation, true happiness and peace of mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God bless,
Suzet

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

“I especially like the first link with all the nicely categorized articles. The articles seems very insightful and I think many of those articles can also help me to gain further & better insight into myself; what happened etc. I also love to read articles like this to my H. My H doesn’t like to read much himself, but he enjoys if I read stuff like this to him.”

Suzet: I too think the categorized articles are great. I read them based on the different stages that I feel I am at in recovery. MB’s and the generous posters, the books I have read, and articles from that web site and many others have helped me cope with my wife’s affair and have given me the strength and wisdom to help influence the turn around in our relationship. I am glad to share them with anyone.

----
“Falling in love is obviously not confined to infidelity. Most contemporary marriages start out with romantic love. But, therapists say, couples have to grow up and understand that "feelings of love are neither steady nor constant but travel in natural cycles," as Abrahms Spring puts it. "If your relationship doesn't live up to your ideas about love, the problem may be not with your relationship but with your ideas," she writes.”

I stressed this very same point to my wife last night as I read the article to her. I think she still sometimes confuses and perceives her fantasy love with real love. I also told her that I believed her ideas of love are different than what reality realy is.

----

“People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high… These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off… When the WS then get involved with someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. I thought the same thing after my EA ended, but I have learn and grow and realized that I was indeed “in love” with my H, but in a more mature way”.

I so agree. My wife is a good woman but I think she fell into a romance where she felt like Queen for a Day. She got the euphoric feelings from the OM and they have been gone in our M for 20 years. It is hard to compete with a fantasy.

----

“To explain this better: Dr Phil once said there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love... He said spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable. To use his exact words: The partner in a long & committed R became “the soft place to fall”. This is so true. My H is indeed my soft place to fall… He is the only one who knows ALL about me – he knows all my strengths & weaknesses, he knows the beautiful parts about me and the ugly parts; he knows me on by “down” days and my “good” days – but he still loves me and excepts me just the way I am, with ALL my faults and flaws. This is wonderful”!

I tried to convince my wife, in her fog state and I have since rehashed the same, that I too accept her for who she is and I know her good, bad, and ugly side. I told her the OM buckled at the first sign of reality when he reared his ugly selfish side up at the first sign of controversy. The unknown with the OM is rather he would accept her whole person in the real world. Her ego side tells her he would but my realistic side tells me for not more than a few years. She will be 50 yrs old in a few years and he will be in his low 30’s. I said, prior to us beginning recovery, I was planning on watching her fall from afar when she is dumped for a 25-year old to a 28-year old girl who will have this guy’s first kid.

---

In an earlier post you've said: “I think you made him aware of your concern and it sounds like he is not mocking you or making fun of you being paranoid. Based on this, he is not trying to disguise a hidden agenda by making you feel stupid. I think your marriage will be ok. Your brief EA may have instilled some insecurities in yourself”.

Yes. I belief there is a price for all people involved. My wife has suggested that I must be careful too. That might be her insecurities talking too. I stopped by one of our female workers house a few weeks ago to drop something off to her for her from her husband. They are separated but my wife didn’t like me going there. I am not attracted to her anyway and she is just a casual co-worker friend. You and my wife know how easy Affairs start and how quickly you can fall in love by accident. You fear that we will do the same because we always get what we give in life. I am going to post something in an hour or so on this thread that was recently explained to me and it might help you overcome your established level of self-worth. I hope I can explain it well enough to make you understand it, but I will at least try so stay tuned.

TooSoon

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

Read this and tell me what you think.

Suzet:

I recently talked to a Sports Psychologist who works with college athletes and musicians. He tries to teach mediocre athletes and musicians how to raise their bar or how to turn them into champions and to take them to the highest level possible. He says it all begins in the mind and I will try and explain his general teaching method to you for it may help you overcome your own insecurities in your mind. I hope I will make you understand this without being able to draw you a diagram or graph, like I did to my wife and kids.

Look at the Graph below. Quality of Life can be substituted with anything or goal you want. It could even mean Quality of Marriage. Most people achieve the average level between 5 and 7. The area between 5 and 7 becomes their life or marriage comfort zone. On a good day, they may be pushing all the way up to a seven and with a few set backs, they may slide back down to a 5. Most people are generally happy anywhere within those levels. If a terrible argument ensues and all hell breaks loose or if you experience one of life’s major set backs, you may drop down below to a 2 or a 3 and your life is miserable. You know you work too hard to be satisfied with accepting your life or marriage at a 2 or 3 level. You hate the feeling so you do your best to get back to the 5 to 7 level where you know you are happy and where you belong.

On the other hand, everything in our life or marriage is going perfect for us and all of a sudden, we find ourselves pushing up to an 8 or 9 level. Things are going absolutely perfect for us because we are at or we are close to top of our game. Some refer this to being in the “zone”. Here is our dilemma, we have now moved to a high point in our life but we find we are not comfortable or we do not deserve to be at that high level. We know we don’t deserve to be this happy and we don’t warrant or belong in this euphoric high level. Guess what we do. We orchestrate our move back down to our comfort zone between 5 and 7 and we are happy to be back to where we deserve to be.

This Psychologist’s 20 years worth of studies have shown that our self esteem parallels the same level we achieve in our Quality Of Life’s Graph. If we don’t feel we are worthy to be any happier than the 5 to 7 range, than that is as high as we will allow ourselves to achieve and go. We have conditioned and trained ourselves to stay within those safe levels. His proven theory is this: Our self-esteem level impacts and controls our achievement level of our success. This means if we can work on raising our self-esteem to maybe an 8, 9, or even a 10, that will put us in the mindset of winners and champions who excel to the highest levels possible. Since we conditioned ourselves to be in the 5 to 7 level, we must recondition ourselves to exceed those mediocre levels. I will explain below how he teaches us to do this.

Our Quality of Life, our marriage, or our goals are not up to that high level because that is the level of winners and champions and we don’t know how it feels to be winners and champions. This Psychologist believes we start by practicing being winners and champions. We must envision ourselves being complimented by others for being so good at our chosen quest, etc. We are practicing and preparing ourselves for the time we achieve a much higher Quality of Life as winners have and are used to. What do winners and champions do? Winners and Champions work harder than everyone else. They practice, study, and develop their skills and they don’t quit working. People who practice, study, and develop their skills raise their own bar and their level of self-esteem exceeds their old high levels and their comfort zones raises. If they were a 5 to 7 before, they begin the steps to grow to the 8, 9, and 10 self-esteem levels. They practice being confident, secure, and successful winners and champions. Now when our Quality of our Life or Marriage rises beyond the 7 level, we won’t drive ourselves back down to the old levels due to our lower self esteem. Why? Because our winner and champion attitude and our hard work allow us to deserve something better than the mediocre 5 to 7 levels. You must practice to be a winner and a champion so you know and understand the feelings of a winner and a champion. That way, when it happens to you, you won’t sabotage yourself deliberately to get you back down to your old comfort level.
Based on this same concept, if we think we are the best spouses in the world, we will work hard to be the best spouses in the world. If we picture ourselves as award winning spouses, we will start feeling like award winning spouses. If we practice feeling like award-winning spouses and even visualize, in our minds, accepting accolades that award-winning spouses would normally receive from envious mediocre spouses; we begin the transition of turning ourselves into award winning spouses. Now, what do we have to do to achieve the status being the award-winning spouse? We must practice, study, and develop our spouse skills. If we practice, study, and develop our skills, we have one lucky recipient spouse who receives the benefit of our growth and hard work. We have now allowed our self-esteem to grow to new higher levels and the quality of our marriages will grow to the level of our new self-esteem and we will know we deserve to be at this new high level preventing us from sabotaging ourselves back down to the lower level that we practiced in our marriage in the past. We now have taken our marriage to a new level and a much higher and quality of life will follow.

Quality Of Life
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0


Self Esteem
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0


Now I will explain his process to allow us to make this happen. We can only make changes when we are calm and stress free. When we feel anxiety, we can’t see the big picture and we have a tendency to be narrowly focused on our cause, our battle, or our petty fights. If we can become calm and relaxed, we can see the big picture, make better logical decisions, and take action with a clear mind. Below is an exercise for us to work on. It is recommended we tape this and play it back to ourselves 3 to 4 times every day.

1. I feel Quiet.
2. I am beginning to feel quite relaxed.
3. My feet feel relaxed. They feel heavy and warm.
4. My ankles, my knees, and my hips feel heavy and relaxed.
5. My stomach, my chest, and my shoulders feel relaxed and calm.
6. My back feels long and loose.
7. My arms feel limp and my forearms and hands feel heavy and warm.
8. My neck, jaws, face, and forehead feel relaxed. They feel slack and smooth.
9. I am aware of my environment but my mind is quiet and calm.
10. My whole body is still. I feel quite quiet and at peace with myself.


11. I have created this relaxation within myself and I can choose to be calm whenever
I want to.
12. I am a good person and I deserve to feel good, and calm.
13. I am at peace with myself and satisfied with who I am today.
14. I am a good person and deserve to improve my life in many ways.
15. I am a person who can create positive energy for change in my life.
16. I am quite quiet and my mind is open to new possibilities.


17. I can visualize_____________________________________________________ .
(Imagine how it will look and feel to be behaving in some new more successful
way.)
18. I can visualize_____________________________________________________ .
(Imagine how it will look and feel to be behaving in some new more successful
way.)
19. When I am calm and confident, I can make positive changes in my life.
20. The feeling of calm and confidence is who I am everyday. My successes will
follow naturally as I live with these feelings and clear visions of positive growth.

With practice, we can condition ourselves to be calm upon our own command. Try this man’s plan for it may work for you or anyone else. Let me know what you think after you practice it for a while. I hope I didn’t bore you but I believe in his process.

TooSoon

Toosoon,

Thanks for your time and effort to compile that lengthy and detailed post. You’ve explained the “General Teaching Method” excellently and the process makes perfect sense to me! Your explanation didn’t bore me at all. In fact, I find it very interesting and I believe techniques like this can help to improve our mental/emotional abilities towards a better self-esteem etc. I know very well that sometimes I become my own worst enemy with my negative thoughts, fears etc. and I'm thoroughly aware that I'm stuck in many "comfort zones". I love to read psychological books (psychology is a very intersting field/subject) and I have borrowed & read a few psychological books in the past from my counselor friend (my past counselor (woman) who have also became a close friend and confident of mine). Reading those books also give me a better understanding of myself and people in general.

I will do some practicing and let you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

I think Dan has got to the point where he doesn't need the daily help. I hope things are working well. I know the BB can actually be depressing a bit because everyone is in so much pain. What do you think?

ToSoon

Toosoon,

Probably Dan has reach the point where he doesn’t need daily help anymore, but I have an idea he is currently occupied with things which takes all his time and attention and that he doesn't has time to post at this stage. I’m also a bit worried about him because he talked about recent events that disoreintated him a bit… I'm wondering about this and I just hope things are still okay with him and his W and that there wasn’t a serious setback in their recovery. However, I think if that was the case, he would have posted by now.

You are right - MB can actually be a bit depressing because of all the pain, especially for someone like Dan in early recovery. I think for some people it might be good thing to take a break from MB from time to time. I remember while I was in intense withdrawal, I mostly lurked here and didn’t post. My emotions were too raw and painful at that stage. I was afraid I would receive 2 x 4’s or hurt BS’s with my honest expression of feelings. I started posting again after I felt I could give something back to this board and use my own experience and what I’ve learned to help others.

Just for some update: Things are still going well regarding this issue with my H’s lady friend. From my last update, nothing has occurred that gave me any reason to be concerned about this whole thing again. The past weekend hubby and me visited her and her H again and while the two men were busy with some shared interest, me and the lady used the time to have some quality talk and to get to know each other better. We really connected and I enjoyed her company. On one stage she shared some issues regarding her M and on my turn I could offer some advice and suggestions etc. This was also a nice opportunity to share some things with her and to offer her some insight in what I have learned from my own experiences and bad choices of the past. I also directed her to MBers and encourage her to get help & support for the issues in her M on the “Emotional Needs” forum. I’m glad I had this opportunity to talk to her about these things. And now that me and the lady have started to built a friendship of our own, I’m much less concerned about her and my H's connection. I feel both me and my H are friends with her now and this makes a difference.

Have a nice day, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Probably Dan has reach the point where he doesn’t need daily help anymore, but I have an idea he is currently occupied with things which takes all his time and attention and that he doesn't has time to post at this stage. I’m also a bit worried about him because he talked about recent events that disoreintated him a bit… I'm wondering about this and I just hope things are still okay with him and his W and that there wasn’t a serious setback in their recovery. However, I think if that was the case, he would have posted by now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I put presure on him to expose the affair and he wasn't ready for that yet. He may be avoiding the BB so he doesn't have to feel more pressure from us, since he has enough at home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right - MB can actually be a bit depressing because of all the pain, especially for someone like Dan in early recovery. I think for some people it might be good thing to take a break from MB from time to time. I remember while I was in intense withdrawal, I mostly lurked here and didn’t post. My emotions were too raw and painful at that stage. I was afraid I would receive 2 x 4’s or hurt BS’s with my honest expression of feelings. I started posting again after I felt I could give something back to this board and use my own experience and what I’ve learned to help others. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually read and post to try and help others since I received help from other myself. I find it therapudic too. We have our little fights and when we do, I immediately wonder if something is "up". You and I are now conditioned and/or paranoid a bit, but for two different reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just for some update: Things are still going well regarding this issue with my H’s lady friend. From my last update, nothing has occurred that gave me any reason to be concerned about this whole thing again. The past weekend hubby and me visited her and her H again and while the two men were busy with some shared interest, me and the lady used the time to have some quality talk and to get to know each other better. We really connected and I enjoyed her company. On one stage she shared some issues regarding her M and on my turn I could offer some advice and suggestions etc. This was also a nice opportunity to share some things with her and to offer her some insight in what I have learned from my own experiences and bad choices of the past. I also directed her to MBers and encourage her to get help & support for the issues in her M on the “Emotional Needs” forum. I’m glad I had this opportunity to talk to her about these things. And now that me and the lady have started to built a friendship of our own, I’m much less concerned about her and my H's connection. I feel both me and my H are friends with her now and this makes a difference. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that is good that you befriended her. Your H must still be careful but you and he are very aware of that. My counselor told me long ago, if they are going to stray, you can't stop them so you must have faith they won't again. I know your H never did, and I haven't either so just trust him that he wont. Keep in touch.

TooSoon

Suzet:

I went a listened to the same psychologist again tonight. I am convinced his approach is right on. Improving a person's quality of life begins with with one raising his or her self esteem and believing in yourself. You must believe you deserve to win and that way you wont sabatage your own success.

TooSoon