Thanks AM, and yes, I did find out. I knew it was coming fairly early in the day, but the crash still hurt. The stuff with DD and my ex on Monday hurt even more, and continues to hurt. Good thing I recognize the infidelity/betrayal diet when I see it, and can be a bit proactive about dealing with it and the accompanying lack of sleep. It keeps me from getting into such a bad space.

Mojo, thank you for stopping by. How are you doing these days? I haven't seen you around in ages, though perhaps that's because we post in different places these days.

WAT, Cerri told me something very similar about her son. I think I can understand, to the limited extent that anyone who hasn't lost a child can understand it. I wonder -- did you find yourself free in one sense, only to find that another trap still held you? That's what I've found both times I've been through this feeling of utter freedom. (The other one was when I left last summer. Two days later, my ex revoked her consent to the adoption and pulled me back into the horror.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just J:
<strong>I wonder -- did you find yourself free in one sense, only to find that another trap still held you? That's what I've found both times I've been through this feeling of utter freedom. (The other one was when I left last summer. Two days later, my ex revoked her consent to the adoption and pulled me back into the horror.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, for me another trap wasn't holding me, but another one had been set.......a grieving Mom's need for sanctuary and a "friend" waiting to become "any port in a storm" or a "useful idiot."

WAT

Yeah, WAT, I hear you. And I know it was downright... awful. The world still amazes me some days.

In the good news department, my attorney has calmed me down regarding the effect of an engagement or marriage on my relationship with DD. It appears that that doesn't have nearly the effect I thought it might, at least when it comes to custody. I don't think she could really answer the question of what it would do to the adoption; her concern is not with that anymore, but with the day-to-day maintaining of a good situation for my daughter.

She is also absolutely adamant about getting my marriage completely over with. At this point..... works for me! I've been walking around all evening with a returned sense of peace and calm. Not the giddy craziness of last week, but just a sense that I am, maybe, finally, free of the threats to my relationship with DD. Dang, but that would be good. Those threats, in large measure, are what drove the destruction of my marriage. Though I don't want the marriage back any more, I also want to have those threats entirely negated.

I hope they have been.

JustJ - Glad you are doing okay. Could you read amIenough's post, and reply to her?

Thanks, believer. I really am. It's such a relief.

And yep, I'll have a look.

3 winks from men and 2 e-mails from women, all of whom seem mildly interested in me.

Hee. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have a date on Saturday night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oooo-heeeee, you GO, girl! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Are you nervous?
Excited?
Is this someone you know or someone you're meeting?
I'll ask anything - I'm shameless and nosey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Shall I give you the "I've got a date" speech my dad gave me?

Date?
Did someone take a trip to the middle east?
Did you get the sugared ones? Or just plain dried?

SS

Ps, thanks for the wonderful post to believer. It's what I would have done if I had the talent you have with words.

I'm back from my date. A match from Match.com. A very fun time, a short date, and a brief and chaste kiss at the end. I am, honestly, giggling a bit about the whole thing -- because it was just plain fun.

I think that I will do this again. Go on a date, that is.

Turtlehead, I wasn't nervous. Excited and anticipating a good time. I guess maybe I should have been nervous? But eh, why bother? I was there to enjoy myself and so was she. I am officially a Freeloader (see Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders for a definition) and it was a lovely time.

Still Seeking, you're a very silly man and you made me laugh. Thank you. (I love that kind of date, too.) And you're welcome about the post to believer. I just said what was there to be said. I hope it helped.

I've now been on three dates. Yesterday was the second, when friends of friends introduced me to a single friend of theirs. I enjoyed meeting all of them and suspect that I will count them as friends for a long while.

This morning was the third. A very kind gentleman who bought me breakfast. (I'm a cheap date -- I had oatmeal and coffee.) We chatted for a good while. I really enjoy meeting new people and chatting wtih them. It's something I do in my work and it translates to first dates really quite well.

I'm not honestly sure how one then translates it into second, third, and fourth dates, but I guess it happens. Meanwhile, I still think I'm going to throw a party for all the people I have dates with when I come to the end of my dating year. I think it'll be fun.... and fun is what this is all about, though it also has a serious long-term purpose.

If anyone knows any singles in the DC area, do send me e-mail. I'd love to meet 'em. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi J,

You have done the dating thing before, it's not a new thing for you.

It is true however, that you are a new thing for it. Not the same J that was dating before, not even close.

What are you learning this time around?

SS

Hi SS! I am indeed a new thing for dating. When I was a teenager and in my early 20s, I was a shy thing who didn't know how to have a good conversation.

Now, though? I've spent the last eight years of my professional life honing my conversational skills. I've spent the last several years learning compassion, as well. And those two things, I think, make me a fun and gentle and kind first date. Much more fun than I was in my rough and edgy younger days.

At the same time, though, my standards are higher. I like the people that I date, and I'm willing to say "no, you're not right for me" much more often. I'm willing to be courted, willing to be pursued, willing to choose to be alone rather than with someone who doesn't have long term potential.

I have only just started dating, and I suspect that my confidence right now may not last -- there will be those who reject me when I like them, and very likely there will be at least one fairly serious relationship that will end sadly. And yet, I have a feeling that my own self-worth is different than it once was, and my willingness to stand for what I want and need is stronger than ever.

Hi SS! I am indeed a new thing for dating. When I was a teenager and in my early 20s, I was a shy thing who didn't know how to have a good conversation.

Then you have come a long way in this area - because you are very good at it now.

I've spent the last several years learning compassion, as well. And those two things, I think, make me a fun and gentle and kind first date. Much more fun than I was in my rough and edgy younger days.

You have a lot of class. You understand things, you see needs, and you help people. I don't know if there is a single word for it in english, but you are doing really well.

At the same time, though, my standards are higher.
OK, you made me laugh. Not at you - please understand. I laughed and said "Well, I should hope so, if not, she hasn't learned a thing."
You did learn though, and they are higher.

I like the people that I date, and I'm willing to say "no, you're not right for me" much more often. I'm willing to be courted, willing to be pursued, willing to choose to be alone rather than with someone who doesn't have long term potential.

Very healthy attitude. If we could get people dating for the first time around to be like this, many of the problems we face on MB would not be here. Trouble is, too many don't learn it until after the bad stuff happens. Reading a book doesn't do it for most of us.

I have only just started dating, and I suspect that my confidence right now may not last -- there will be those who reject me when I like them, and very likely there will be at least one fairly serious relationship that will end sadly. And yet, I have a feeling that my own self-worth is different than it once was, and my willingness to stand for what I want and need is stronger than ever.

I vote that it will last. I think you have come that far at least. You are right of course in saying that some that you like may not like you, but you have time. No need to be in a hurry, lots of things yet to learn. Things about others to learn, and things about you. Things about God, things about the world.

If you don't mind sharing, what did you get from your email poll?

SS

Then you have come a long way in this area - because you are very good at [conversation] now.

For eight years now I've spent much of my time sitting with frightened clients, asking them gentle questions about their jobs and drawing out the most minute and picky details about how they do what they do. I suppose many people would be bored out of their minds by it, but I find it fascinating to learn about people and what they do. Having had that practice in a professional setting makes a two-hour date quite easy. Perhaps too much so -- I have no idea what to talk about if I ever go on a second date with any of thesee folks.

You have a lot of class. You understand things, you see needs, and you help people. I don't know if there is a single word for it in english, but you are doing really well.

Thank you, SS. I still struggle with it. There are times that the darkness of my soul comes out to play, and I know that if I were to allow others to see that darkness, it would hurt them. Well, no. If I were to allow that darkness to control my actions, it would hurt them -- and me as well. So I write my rants and then delete them or save them to a drafts folder full of words that will never be seen by anyone, and then I return to the quiet of the lighter sides of my soul. I would like for the darkness to leave me entirely. So far, I haven't managed it.

OK, you made me laugh. Not at you - please understand. I laughed and said "Well, I should hope so, if not, she hasn't learned a thing."
You did learn though, and they are higher.

I have to laugh at this as well. I thought that my standards were high before. I truly did. As I look back on it, I see high standards -- but I also see too much willingness to reconsider, to forgive, to hope that people would change if I gave them another chance. I'm terribly optimistic about people even now. My boss is always warning me not to trust people who are obviously untrustworthy, and my friends regularly warn me about trusting people as well. And yet I have rarely been taken advantage of, rarely gotten myself into real trouble. So I don't know. Maybe people are better than we think -- and maybe I'm lucky -- and maybe people are both bad and good and omst of the time I bring out the good in them by trusting them to -be- good. I don't know.

Very healthy attitude. If we could get people dating for the first time around to be like this, many of the problems we face on MB would not be here. Trouble is, too many don't learn it until after the bad stuff happens. Reading a book doesn't do it for most of us.

You're right about that, and I'm one of the ones who has to learn pretty much all the life lessons the hard way. I used to believe I really could make anything work if I just tried hard enough and gave enough and loved enough. You'd think after the number of spectacular failures that I've had that I would have figured it out sooner. And... I did. Just not soon enough.

I vote that it will last. I think you have come that far at least.

I've struck up conversations lately with Chilean bankers and American actors. Each time I wonder -- will this one measure up? Not just to my standards, but is this one that I would be willing to take to meet my dad?

It's still a funny thing for a 37-year-old to be thinking. I didn't think this way when I was 16 or 22. But now? Now I measure with my own eyes and then I take a look through his, as well as I can figure them out. I would like to take home someone who my dad will like and respect. He's been hurt by what my ex did to me and to his granddaughter, and he doesn't really want me to date at all. He told my mom he doesn't want to share me with someone else and doesn't want me hurt again. It made me smile -- and I love him for it -- and I'm dating anyway.

You are right of course in saying that some that you like may not like you, but you have time. No need to be in a hurry, lots of things yet to learn. Things about others to learn, and things about you.

You're right about that. As I transition into thinking of my ex as a part of my past, instead of a part of my present, I find that one of my main emotions is about me, rather than about her. I'm really rather annoyed with myself for spending 14 years waiting for her to grow up and be the partner I knew she could be -- and never was. I don't regret my daughter... but at the same time, if I had had a little more faith in myself, perhaps I would have learned a few things more quickly. Now I'm 37, have a young daughter, would like to marry again, have no chance of bearing my own children so will have to convince a mate to go the adoption/donor egg route, and have a history that's as checkered and daunting as any I've read here or elsewhere, barring abuse or addictions.

I look at that, and I take a deep breath, and I sometimes wonder whether I'm insane to be thinking about dating at all. There's no one on the planet who's going to want to make all that work.

And yet, I can see it in the eyes of the people I meet. Sparkly interest. I don't get it, don't trust it, don't really believe it. But it's there nonetheless. I wish, how I wish, I could have kids of my own. And tonight, though it's terrible of me, I wish I were 25, not burdened with a child already, could bear my own children, and could build my life from that point anew, with all the lessons that I've learned already in place. If I had that, I think I could really build well.

It's not what I have. It's a pipe dream that was never real -- when I was 25 I was deep in the depths of destroying my academic career in an emotionally abusive research physics laboratory. I guess I needed most of the 12 intervening years to get to where I am today. I just spent them on things most people don't.

Things about God, things about the world.

Is this the part where I take a deep breath and step into the Now and miracles start to happen? I did the first two. I accept that miracles may follow. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Other, of course, than a party with a bunch of MB/SYMCers. They'd best show up soon, too, because I might finish off the Mike's Hard Lemonade before they get here....

If you don't mind sharing, what did you get from your email poll?

For those who don't know, I asked a bunch of people -- people that I've tried to help -- whether I have halped, and whether I should continue to do this work or not now that my own marriage has ended.

I haven't sent it to everyone I want to send it to -- a change of computers messed up my address books.

(pause... okay, I've transferred my old address book and will send it to the ones I missed the first time around now)

I think the end result was that yes, I've helped people. Some more than others, of course, and I do wonder about all the ones who didn't answer. But I've helped, and I've been helped in return, and everyone who's answered has said that they will respect whatever decision I eventually make about whether I'm going to continue to do this or not.


SS [/QB][/QUOTE]

JustJ - Yikes - did you say you were going out with a gentleman?

Hi Believer! I've had one date with a gentleman. I "friended" him after that. He's a really nice person, but is older than I would be comofortable starting a family with.

And yes, I know, that's a bit of a "yikes" for me, too. Still -- as a recent (male) correspondent put it, in these difficult times, if I have the option of choosing between a male partner and a female partner, it may be that the more responsible path for me, my daughter, and any other children I bring into this world... is to choose a male partner.

I don't like it, but November 2nd did a great deal of damage to the rights of families like mine. So it's something I think about. And having always been open to the possibility of a relationship with a man or a woman, well, it may be that I'm swayed more toward men even though my past deep emotional connections have tended to be more with women.

JustJ - Well I am very curious about all of this. Do you feel attracted to men or women or just the person, whether male or female?

I am thinking, but having been ill most of the week, it has been dificult for me - and I haven't posted all week.

How did the party go? Been waiting for you to tell about it.

Been thinking (also) about darkness, and light. That's a lot of subject. I'll be back.

SS

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

And yes, I know, that's a bit of a "yikes" for me, too. Still -- as a recent (male) correspondent put it, in these difficult times, if I have the option of choosing between a male partner and a female partner, it may be that the more responsible path for me, my daughter, and any other children I bring into this world... is to choose a male partner.

This one paragraph gives me more respect for you than I can say. Although I have always held you in high regard on this board, this is such a responsible, forward thinking statement it impresses me to no end.

My dad (whom my respect for was and is still after his death from alcoholism, monumental) once told me that he married my mother because he knew she would be a great wife AND a great mother to the large family he wanted. He said he was not madly in love with her, but chose her with his head. And then after the wedding and after all the babies, his respect and fondness for her blossomed into a great love.

Next time I enter into the world of dating, I plan on keeping sex completely out of the equation. My decision is going to be based on respect, friendship, mutual visions of what our future will hold, and the possiblity of a great love which only comes after the marriage.

It took me 20 years to figure this out, and you are helping to reinforce this in my head.

Does that make sense?

Good luck JJ, on your dating experience. I wish I knew a great guy to hook you up with (oh who am I kidding, if I did I'ld probably take him for myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

weaver