Stanley...

I read the "stuck in our ways" comment.... and I have a little story to tell.

I am a nurse practitioner. I have worked in a speciality area for about 7 years. I am a headache specialist. I prefer not to discuss headaches with anyone on this forum. But this is part of the story, so I am bending my own rules for the moment.

I attended a very small group discussion with a world-renound specialist who was giving an intimate educational program. (This was about 4 years ago)

This MD had made video tapes of some of his patient encounters, and we would view the tapes as a group, and then guess the diagnosis, then discuss. It was really fun. And this MD is something special. A great doctor, and a wonderful educator.

(on video) One of the patients was a middle-aged man who came in to the headache clinic with his wife of 25 years. She was the most concerned and immaculately detailed care-taker of her husband's well-being you could ever imagine. The couple were so thrilled to finally see the headache guru, they brought all their volumes of data about his headaches that they had collected over the years.

They had been to numerous famous pain clinics. They had documented every medication, it's effectiveness, it's side effects, every pill he had ever swallowed was on record in their notebooks. Every headache had been registered on a carefully kept calendar.... for every single day for almost 20 years!

Their faces expressed their focused concern and their hope that "this time" and that "this expert" would be "the one" who would find the hidden solution to their shared dilemma. Chronic daily headache of the husband.

We viewed this video. And we discussed the diagnosis.

The headache guru asked us what we think he did to help the couple. We threw out some (mostly already tried) suggestions... and the headache-pain guru MD said:

paraphrasing..."You need to learn to recognize a functioning system. There is nothing that is going to fix this man's headaches. His headaches are the daily topic of their lives. If the man's headaches were cured, this couple would have no life! They function as a couple because of his headaches."

I was stunned. I was mildly offended (for a little while)... then I gradually saw the truth...

Sometimes what outsiders see looks like THE PROBLEM that is causing pain and misery within the "system" ... might actually function as the glue that holds the "system" together.

Sometimes an attempt to "fix the system" removes the glue... and it is possible that things will fall apart without the "problem".

This was a most unexpected take-home message from that particular educational weekend... and I have never viewed my work the same ever since.

"Stuck in our ways", when you wrote this, it reminded me I must remain humble .... things are often not what they appear at first glance.

Pep

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

Chronic daily headaches secondary to analgesic use (rebound HA) is a huge problem. I used to get them and got rid of them by going cold turkey and taking NOTHING for the HA. Now I NEVER GET HAs.

Your HA couple was anal retentive and obsessive. I suspect that if either of them had an affair they would follow MB dogma to the letter and perhaps the affair would become the one and only purpose of the marriage.

I am laid back, type B personality. I tend to play everything by ear. My wife is the same way. We have a hard time doing anything by method and yes like all creatures of habit we resist change.

We have not done the EN questionnaire, however I looked at it and I would probably score my wife pretty high. I think I was well satisfied in the marriage and if I lacked something I did not make a big deal of it. I am basically happy with whatever I have. In any event I will print the questions and give them to my wife.

BTW, today my wife admitted it has always been hard for her to be completely open with me. She fears I will judge her and this all comes from a relationship that started when were were teenagers. However, with OM she was completely open because he was a new slate and she had nothing to lose by being open. OTOH, with me Myrta believes she will lose stature if she is open.

I am convinced that one needs to be open to achieve emotional intimacy and hence an improved relationship. It is possible that my wife was pseudo-intimate with me her whole life.

I will keep trying even though JL said to take a break from trying.

Stanley,

I think Pep's story is very illuminating. However, it could also carry another message. If someone recognizes that all they have going for him is a certain behavior, then they can broaden the things they share and thus make the marriage more immune to things.

Take the couple she mentioned. What is going to happen if suddenly his HA's go away? Their marriage is based only on that? If they recognized this and broaden the marriage the lose of the HA's would be no lose at all, but actually a cure.

In marriage sex is often the glue, but eventually one or both of the couple will slow down and perhaps even lose their function or drive. What then? Here is where sharing, broadening the marriage, being able to talk about things so that changes in life can be properly handled is crucial.

IN many ways I think this is what has happened in your marriage. It did change over the years and you and Myrta did not talk about the changes in life or needs (they do change) hence she felt the need for outside verification. I believe you are on the right track with the opening up. I hope that opening up and stopping the defensiveness can help HER. I am guessing but I would bet that some of the distance she complained about with you was due to her defensiveness and you responding in a conflict avoiding way by backing off.

You would not dare take over the finances would you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> What she needs to see is that she binds you closer and more surely to her as she opens up and allows you to share more of her life. The same goes for you. And she needs to see the data. You have been married to her for 30 years and clearly she is the woman for you. She does not need to give up and become a slob or something, but she can relax abit and enjoy this a bit.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

I emailed these words to my wife about two months ago--------------- They are from MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to meet each other's emotional needs, and you want to overcome Love Busters, one essential ingredient is an honest expression of your emotional reactions to each other. What makes a marriage successful is your willingness and ability to accommodate each other's feelings. And without the facts about those feelings, an otherwise happy couple can become very unhappy as the events of life change.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Furthermore I said to her that with emotional intimacy in the marriage it is very hard to participate in an affair.

I believe it all comes back to the wall around her and the fear to lose ground in front of me.

This emotional intimacy is so important that when the WW establishes that emotional connection with the OM she cannot make love to her husband anymore and finds that making love to the OM is perfectly natural and feels quite right.

I will confess to you that as of today Myrta does not feel relaxed or natural with me. But, there is more-------------- many years ago I was discussing with Myrta about her lovemaking and she confessed to me that she always held back a little with me. She was never in the comfort zone and was always somewhat conscious of her actions. Then just today she said that the fog of the affair is so intense that one lets go without a thought.

So that is the state of the situation. I now believe what we had all these years was a pseudo-intimacy which probably did not bother me since I am not a needy person who is happy with little. OTOH, Myrta confirms that she always wanted more romance and hence that is why she went after OM.

So we are stuck in this point!

Myrta says she needs time. At the same time she now vehemently denies withdrawal. She also claims that this is the way she was with me since she was 13 years of age and that change is hard.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Myrta,

The sad thing is that this is Myrta's loss. She will NEVER know true happiness with you or the very romantic love she craves and you are capable of giving her. Truely I don't know what to say and clearly what I could say to her would not be heard. She is the one that has to realize what she has lost and in fact sort of given away by NOT allowing you into her emotional being.

I am sure she was that way with OM because she felt that she had YOU to carry her through life so that what OM thought was not as important, but that is faulty thinking and has cost her 30 years of true intimacy.

Oh Well, all you can do is hang in there and hope that at some point she gets it...her fear is keeping from the one thing she was willing to risk everything for a deep emotional connection. She could have it with you with little risk.

God Bless,

JL

Yes-- Myrta admitted that the emotional connection with OM was easy because he was a new face with no risk involved (to her). In addition she had the upper hand as she was given OM advice on how to handle the break-up of his marriage (due to OM’s infidelity).

JL, it all originates as a 13 year old girl dealing with a 17 year old boy. At that tender age Myrta already had secrets that affected our relationship. What ever developed at that early age never changed and she learned to keep things inside of her for an entire lifetime. We never courted each other as adults; we never experienced true heart-break or major disappointments. In fact Myrta has had a long marriage with no major obstacles along the way. It was never the type of new relationship between two adults that had been through an array of disappointments and therefore we never considered seeking that extra level of emotional intimacy. I never held anything from Myrta so I felt I was close. If there was a wall around her it did not bother me a whole lot because I was quite busy carrying on with the duties of going to school and then supporting a family.

Don’t get me wrong, we had a very happy marriage and I don’t remember a single bad moment until D-day. My wife was good at taking care of my emotional needs and did a good job at that while having the affair. I felt I was well treated during the affair with the exception of the bedroom (and that was more so during the last 3-4 months before D-day when OM came to town quite often). The normal relaxed manner of long lasting love in a marriage was interpreted by Myrta as neglect.

So I keep waiting.

I will keep you posted since writing about these issues makes me see the situation in a clear manner.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

Don't discount what you have had and do have, it was she that felt she was missing something and failed to connnect the dots with respect with to you. As I recall she did neglect you including having you leave to see your Mother so that she could be with him.

Yet, that is not really the point. What is the point is that she is missing what she seeks, and yes she may settle to being "happily" married to you as the two of you were (not bad), but clearly not enough for her before. The very odd thing about all of this including my interactions with her, is that she could not see that she could have what she was seeking within her marriage and you, but she had to let you in. She could NOT see what I was trying to tell her.

WHile I agree that your relationship started young, I am not sure I would ascribe what has happened to you two not being romantic as adults. You maried as adults, you have reared children as adults, you have seen many things as adults, and you two have shared many times as adults, that many NEVER get to do.

I just hope that somehow this "blind spot" she has with regard to trusting you and letting you in can be really idenitified and that she will finally look at you as the ONE person in this world she could and can trust with her emotional self. I would love to be there to see her finally lay down the defensiveness, look you in the eyes and invite you into her life fully. It will and would change your relationship with her in many ways and I would bet almost all would be for the better.

It would not about making either of you a "better" person, but each of you having an even better marriage.

I do hope it comes to pass.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

The relationship has become dysfunctional. Of course, it might have been dysfunctional before (at least for Myrta it was) but, I did not detect a problem in the past.

In the past I was never unhappy and was 100% satisfied with Myrta. In a sense I never complained about Myrta and only noted some distance in the last several months of the affair. While she had the EA or the early PA (with sporadic encounters) I did not sense a separation. Myrta tells me I always felt great because she worked hard in the marriage and I guess I have to agree with that. If I felt fully satisfied Myrta must have done a GREAT job. OTOH, Myrta says that she was always lacking attention and romance.

Past D-day I find myself needing the attention and the romance. OTOH, Myrta has become more like me and has settled in a routine that is too casual for me. So now I don’t have my ENs filled--------- Probably because my demands are way to high. OTOH, Myrta feels that after almost five months past D-day I should be more calm and less apprehensive. Myrta cannot understand my behavior and sometimes feels she is on the edge because she does not know what I am going to be like from day to day.

I explained to her that five months is not enough to get over the affair. I also told her that I am seeking that emotional connection. She told me that my intense actions make her be more distant rather than closer to me. She also feels she is trying very hard to find a solution.

In summary--- there is a dysbalance. I want too much and she is not giving me enough. I suspect the problem lies with me and that I am expecting a lot way too soon.

In any event--------- I have become like Myrta and now feel dissatisfied. OTOH, Myrta is now more like I used to be. She has settled into a routine that apparently is not enough for me.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ~LOL~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:


Chronic daily headaches secondary to analgesic use (rebound HA) is a huge problem. I used to get them and got rid of them by going cold turkey and taking NOTHING for the HA. Now I NEVER GET HAs.

Your HA couple was anal retentive and obsessive. I suspect that if either of them had an affair they would follow MB dogma to the letter and perhaps the affair would become the one and only purpose of the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thank you for the laugh.

The issue of my story was not headache diagnosis. The issue was recognizing a functioning system.

I especially enjoyed your judgement that these two people are "anal retentive and obsessive".

~LOL~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Enjoy your day. I hope your eventual marital recovery brings all your hopes and dreams to fruition.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The issue was recognizing a functioning system.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reality is that the system worked for 30 years--------------- at least it appears it was working until the affair started. But, we must also realize that affairs can also developed in so-called good marriages. In retrospect the marriage is called faulty, but it may be nothing more than trying to re-write history. Since no marriage is 100% perfect it is always easy to find a flaw.
I will ask Myrta today to take the EN questionnaire.

Thanks for your concern!

Stanley,

I would not ask her to take this EN questionaire. I would talk with her about it and discuss why and how it might help you two. You are right a marriage may seem to be fine and in fact might be fine UNTIL someone decides that they need something else and history gets rewritten and everything is "off to the races".

The problem as I see it is that now that something has in fact happened to damage the marriage an assessment of what needs to be fixed, addressed, ignored, and/or changed should be carried out.

It is clear to me that you have been awakened to another level of intimacy that your W is capapble of and you would like to address this. She at this moment does not, and has not for most of your 30 years together. Hence the need for discussions and understanding. Something to think about.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

This is confusing!

If the affair is the result of lack of attention, then one would think that an increment in emotional intimacy would be welcomed with opened arms.

The problem is that the initiation of that emotional intimacy is much easier when two people meet and have no prior negative history with each other. Now that the affair has occurred there is a lot of baggage in the middle that may be preventing the closeness that is needed for that intimacy. I never forget the line that a lady that used to work with me told me one day: “It is easier to talk to you than to my husband”. I supposed there was strain in her relationship with the husband and therefore, talking to me was way easier for her. So how do I overcome that?

Yesterday I asked Myrta about emotional intimacy and the need to be close but she replied in hostile manner. She was upset because of what I wrote in the forum. I was also inconvenienced because I keep failing and cannot open the door as wide as I would like it to be.

I am going to keep working on the idea of using a much less aggressive approach.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

Take a week or two off. Don't come here, don't talk with her about this stuff, just live your life and enjoy what you can. That is my advice...back off and allow yourself a clearer picture of what is going on.

God Bless,

JL

Will do!

thanks!

bump