</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> I spoke more rationally and with less of the "oh baby I'm so sorry I love you so much" kind of stuff...and showed her I'm being more independent and not clingy/needy. I think she sensed a difference, a certainty in what I was saying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep that up VnusMars- as I've told you all along, women do not want a weak man- or a man that they think is feeding them a bunch of bs in order to be certain that his overly large ego doesn't take a hit.

VnusMars- it sounds like you are finally really "growing up" and becoming an adult. Demonstrating that to your wife will go a long way. And by growing up- I mean learning to accept responsibility, show care and compassion for others- AND very importantly for you, I think, learning to like and be ok BY YOURSELF- without needing constant reassurance and praise from others.

Ditto Sadfww!

Would like to add though that you need to learn how to babble back (reverse fog babble) because what is coming out of WW's mouth is FOG, FOG, FOG.

Especially the part about not being married, only a piece of paper - so her vows meant nothing?

Seriously, learn how to babble back.

Not bad VnusMars, not bad at all.

I had a feeling that she was going to go bonkers when you mentioned her A with the OM. Don't be surprised though that she is going to try to contact you more after this little talk.

Just like your WW should not settle for a serial ONS WH, you also should not settle for an unrepentant, prideful, inmature [she doesn't accept responsibility for her bad behavior] WW. Don't make the mistake of taking her back if she does not accept responsibility for her actions because it is condoning her actions and setting up the stage for another affair by her in the future. Recovery is hard enough and having a WS who doesn't see his/her affair as a betrayal of his/her marital vows makes it extremely hard because you'll have a person that is not willing to address his/her personal issues that helped create the bad state of the marriage. How is it possible to create a new marriage with a person who doesn't take responsibility of his/her actions? I highly recommend that you convey this to her the next time the two of you get a chance to talk.

Beleive it or not, she has more to lose at this point than you do and she knows this otherwise she wouldn't initiate communicating with you.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> Not bad VnusMars, not bad at all.

Beleive it or not, she has more to lose at this point than you do and she knows this otherwise she wouldn't initiate communicating with you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's interesting that you say that...
She said a few other things I didn't mention above...

She actually, out of the blue, in the middle of a discussion on where we are/going etc. said...

"I'm sorry for all of this VnusMars"
I said, "sorry for what?"
She said "just sorry for all of it"

I know that was her way of basically apologizing for her mistakes without actually admitting it, or that's how it felt at least.
That's the first time she's said "I'm sorry" - but then of course she kept on in her unapologetic rant about the splendors of OM and the evils of me.


</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get the impression she's testing me - pushing me away, saying hurtful things or things she thinks will make me say "enough of this crap!" and bolt.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's almost like she wants ME to set HER free, to call it quits - with statements like "if you want to leave I understand" and "this isn't fair to you" and, she even said "please get out of my head" to me a few times, to which I replied "that's up to you not me"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she wants ME to give up first because she wants to be blameless for the end of the M if it comes to that, because in my current calm & loving Plan A state she can't justify doing it herself...if I were unapologetic, running around with OW, she could say "see he's a pig" and file papers and have the moral high ground. She'd be able to wash her hands of me for good and never look back.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RE: her OM and her feelings for him: She said "I think I'm falling in love with him." Now - what purpose does she have to say that other than to keep me in check/hurt me? To push my buttons and make me give up hope? Probably both.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She followed that with "he worships the ground I walk on...the way you always did...but I think he's more sincere" So I asked her "do you worship the ground HE walks on?" and she said "I might someday." She seems to be basing her feelings for him MOSTLY on his feeling for HER. And of course he's whipped, she's a very overpowering and intoxicating woman, I KNOW how the poor guy feels.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A part of her is TRYING desperately to be in love with HIM and not ME and make herself believe that the end of her M was inevitable and irreversible. Even though this isn't what her heart wants, she's fighting it tooth and nail.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I'm starting to realize what she is made of right now...she has 2 sides:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Side 1: Still loves me but is devastated. Knows I'm a good person she fell in love with who has made horrible mistakes. Wants to believe in me again and rebuild our marriage given I change and grow. Isn't really in love with OM, is only using him as a temporary fix because for all her talk of being "strong & independent," she is weak and doesn't want to be alone and needs the validation. Also, his presence keeps ME from getting too cocky.
  Doesn't want to go through life knowing we could have had a 2nd shot and she blew it. I see this side maybe 5-10% of the time right now.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Side 2: Is so devastated that she hates me. Sees me as a monster. Is completely hopeless that I can ever change, cynical about my sincerity, wants to kick me in the groin and kick me out of her life. This part wants to forget I exist and move on with someone else, whether or not it's OM.
  Would rather go through life always missing me and wishing we could have worked it out and settling for 2nd best with someone else.
  I see this side maybe 75-80% of the time right now</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
(I see neither side, and just HER as a person, 10%+ of the time, when we're NOT talking about the M)

But the interesting thing is, and the reason I'm hanging on and being patient, is that I think Side 1 is actually stronger than Side 2. It doesn't get enough attention right now, but sooner or later she's going to have to resign herself to this truth (and start rebuilding our M) or follow a lie to the point of no return (divorce, full R with OM, I disappear).

I suppose this is true of any BS/WW. I understand her skepticism. I know that Side 1 is the true side, the one that sees me for who I REALLY am, a messed-up person but still good at heart and capable of change.

I'm just going to sit back and do my thing and wait for one of those 2 to come to the surface and win the battle. I'm hoping it's Side 1, but if it's Side 2...at least I can say I tried.

She keeps saying "someday maybe our paths will cross." As if we're going to divorce, move on to other people, and come back together years from now.
I think she doesn't realize how irreversible I will see this whole thing if she chooses divorce. She's going to have to wake up to THAT one.

Now...I've got to go back to NOT contacting her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by VnusMars:
[qb] Keep that up VnusMars- as I've told you all along, women do not want a weak man- or a man that they think is feeding them a bunch of bs in order to be certain that his overly large ego doesn't take a hit.

VnusMars- it sounds like you are finally really "growing up" and becoming an adult. Demonstrating that to your wife will go a long way. And by growing up- I mean learning to accept responsibility, show care and compassion for others- AND very importantly for you, I think, learning to like and be ok BY YOURSELF- without needing constant reassurance and praise from others. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's honestly a part of me that wishes I could afford to jump on a plane and hide out in a Tibetan monastery for a month. Seriously.
Just to radically change my environment and survive it and show that I can OK totally on my own. Plus, that would be a dramatic way to show growth, wouldn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But I guess I'll have to settle for going about my daily routine without seeking out the ego boosts and hoping she sees it - not being in my band anymore is a BIG step in the right direction, even though it's making me poor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

VM:

"This time, rather than be a doormat, I brought up her A with OM and made some comparisons, and of course, stood my ground...mostly in a non-LBing kinda way...and as predicted,
She went BONKERS and started saying hers isn't really an A because I know all about it, we're not "emotionally married," just on paper, and she doesn't regret it at all"

Right from the script, VM. Right from the script.

"Emotionally DVd" is a common justification for having an A.

Your W is making an conscious EFFORT 2 "fall in love" with the OM. "Love" doesn't "just happen" it IS A CHOICE. Just like affairs don't just happen, they're a result of bad choices. Your W KNOWS THIS, and yet she is consciously choosing 2 do exactly what she claims 2 hate about you.

ol' 2long's going 2 break with his mantra here and suggest you consider plan B. Your W is ripe for it. When/if you go there, expose 2 OM's family and coworkers. Hire a PI if you don't know them. If he and your W are going 2 persue this A as sort of an "open marriage" (simply because you KNOW about the A, doesn't mean you sanction it), then putting EVERYTHING on the table - your past ONSs and her current A - should NOT BOTHER THEM ONE BIT. Write a good plan B letter, get feedback from the 4um, AND work with one of the Harleys or Penny Tupy and get PROFESSIONAL HELP 2 do plan B right.

You're still helping pay for the apartment but not living there yourself? Stop. Put that in the plan B letter. MAKE OM PAY for the privelege of having an A with a M'd woman. Make him MEET ALL HER ENs, including financial. Make him UNCOMFORTABLE. (more properly, let him make himself more and more uncomfortable as he realizes the consequences of his s2pid choices).

The OTHER approach would be 2 plan A and reverse fog-babble her beautox for as long as THAT takes. And it could take a LONG TIME, particularly when she feels entirely justified in "falling in love" with the OM. Look up old posts by "Lostva". She did something like this and succeeded in saving her M.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>

ol' 2long's going 2 break with his mantra here and suggest you consider plan B. You're still helping pay for the apartment but not living there yourself? Stop.

The OTHER approach would be 2 plan A and reverse fog-babble her beautox for as long as THAT takes. And it could take a LONG TIME, particularly when she feels entirely justified in "falling in love" with the OM. Look up old posts by "Lostva". She did something like this and succeeded in saving her M.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the input 2Long!

In a way, we are in somewhat of a "Plan A/B" - meaning, she told me "NC except logistics" last Tuesday, and neither of us broke it until last night.

We then agreed that occasional contact is fine, emails or phone calls, and maybe once a week go to happy hour together, but no more spending entire weekends and every weeknight together like we were, because it was making me clingy and allowing me to avoid MY issues, and it was smothering her and making her uncomfortable.


I think long silences do us both good, because while she pulled out the "I'm falling in love with him" card for the 1st time last night (but this coming after 3 days with him on the East Coast, so could be serious fog too), she also said some things that surprised me in their honesty and admittance of love and a lingering strong connection to me.

I think Plan B is too much. I think her Foggy Side WANTS me to do just that, WANTS me to cut ties and move on, so she can feel blameless in pursuing OM and making a bad decision.

And since Plan B is mostly about saving myself from going in the red in my LoveBank, I don't feel like I'm there yet. I'm doing much better these past few days than I have in 3 months, really. If I get there in the next few months, I"ll Plan B, trust me.

I will continue a detached Plan A and reverse babble for as long as it takes, but I do have a Plan A deadline of February 2005.
That ties into paying for the apartment...
My name is on the lease, and if we break it, she says she'll make me pay every dime of the $2000 odd it will take to get out.
Yes, she can't MAKE me pay, legally, but by the same token, I don't want to stir up bad blood. I don't want to make her life rougher than it is. I am partly to blame for this whole situation by being a pretty unabashed cheater myself, and I do feel like I "owe" her some sacrifice to help keep her life normal, until February 2005 when the lease is up and she can get her own place she can afford by herself.

If I started playing hardball with her she would turn on me in a heartbeat. I know this woman, and she is not to be trifled with. Besides, one of her big "complaints" against me is that she thinks I obviously have no compassion for others' feelings since I destroyed her AND I toyed with the emotions of all these OW.

So doing something crass and cold now will only prove her right. I've always prided myself on being helpful and supportive, and I'm not giong to fake it now just to get her away from him. Plus, she'll see it as revenge. Not good.

However, I can definitely keep up the arms-length Plan A patience and love, THAT is easy enough for me.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

Time for the 2x4! Put your helmet on!

"In a way, we are in somewhat of a "Plan A/B" - meaning, she told me "NC except logistics" last Tuesday, and neither of us broke it until last night."

And by your own admission, it was NOTHING of a plan B. Plan A maybe, but there's NO SUCH THING as a "somewhat" plan B.

"We then agreed that occasional contact is fine, emails or phone calls, and maybe once a week go to happy hour together, but no more spending entire weekends and every weeknight together like we were, because it was making me clingy and allowing me to avoid MY issues, and it was smothering her and making her uncomfortable."

Great, you just reupholstered the fence for her! Fence-sitters deserve barbed wire! This is REMOTE PLAN A, but with a twist that's NOT good for YOU. You're sanctioning her A. You should be negotiating the end of it.

"I think long silences do us both good, because while she pulled out the "I'm falling in love with him" card for the 1st time last night (but this coming after 3 days with him on the East Coast, so could be serious fog too), she also said some things that surprised me in their honesty and admittance of love and a lingering strong connection to me."

She will need 2 CHOOSE. And so will you. I would stay in plan A so long as it doesn't drive you nuts AND so long as it is "working", but her "falling in love with OM" doesn't sound like "working" 2 me. One of the things WH says in HNHN is that if your S is having an A "don't put up with it for another minute." He means it, 2. If you don't feel like you're making progress, that the A is falling on hard times, then you need 2 expose more or consider plan B.

"I think Plan B is too much. I think her Foggy Side WANTS me to do just that, WANTS me to cut ties and move on, so she can feel blameless in pursuing OM and making a bad decision."

Certainly. But realize that you would NOT be cutting ties and moving on. Plan B is telling her how much you love her and how much her actions hurt you. It's REMOVING you from the hurt, not cutting ties. And you state this clearly and concisely, with a clear set of instructions as 2 what she needs 2 do in order 2 convince YOU that she wants 2 save the M.

"And since Plan B is mostly about saving myself from going in the red in my LoveBank, I don't feel like I'm there yet. I'm doing much better these past few days than I have in 3 months, really. If I get there in the next few months, I"ll Plan B, trust me."

I sounded a lot like that. One thing about the Harleys plans that I don't agree with is the concept of the LB$ "draining" at some point. I've been M'd for almost 29 years now, and I'm NOT going 2 stop loving my W. Maybe as her H, but not her as a mother or as an individual. I could never really "see" a point where I should have gone 2 plan B, though there probably were some. But my W only saw RM 2wice after D-day. Once professionally (and not alone) and the other on a field trip (where she brought our son along). The 2nd time was almost "in your face" but she brought our son, who doesn't know, as kind of a chaparone, so in her own twisted way, she WAS trying 2 reassure me that the A wouldn't reignite. YOUR W isn't living with you (mine never left), and is TRYING 2 inflict hurt on you DELIBERATELY, by choosing 2 almost force herself 2 "fall in love" with the OM as an act of vengeance. I think most people would advise that the BS go 2 plan B in that kind of si2ation.

"My name is on the lease, and if we break it, she says she'll make me pay every dime of the $2000 odd it will take to get out."

So, beat her 2 the punch, break the lease AND pay the penalties willingly. What's it worth 2 you if it pushes her off the fence before she "falls in love with the OM" more than she's forced herself 2 at this point?

"Yes, she can't MAKE me pay, legally, but by the same token, I don't want to stir up bad blood. I don't want to make her life rougher than it is."

Why not? I don't think it's unloving 2 encourage people 2 face the consequences of their selfish, s2pid, thoughtless choices. Do you?

"I am partly to blame for this whole situation by being a pretty unabashed cheater myself, and I do feel like I "owe" her some sacrifice to help keep her life normal, until February 2005 when the lease is up and she can get her own place she can afford by herself."

Hm... First, NOBODY is 2 blame for ANYTHING. I believe you are taking responsibility for the poor choices you made and facing the consequences of those choices. Taking responsibility for one's own life is LIBERATING. I know you know this. 2nd, you are NOT responsible for the choices your W is making, and she can't "blame" you for making them. She makes her own choices. This would be true even if she DID know about your ONSs when she started her A. TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, (but three lefts do). 2 wrongs DO make utter CHAOS, though. Something 2 be proud of? Didn't think so.

"If I started playing hardball with her she would turn on me in a heartbeat. I know this woman, and she is not to be trifled with."

Plan B is NOT TRIFLING. It is NOT a game. It is NOT BLUFFING. You need 2 be prepared for DV as a potential outcome of plan B, which is why you don't do it lightly. But don't just stay in this particular, W-manipulated version of plan A, either. MAKE LIFE WITH THE OM AS UNCOMFORTABLE AS YOU CAN without being "unfair" of course. Penny Tupy will tell you that she isn't "nice" and that "nice" isn't going 2 save marriages. LOVE will, and in this case it just might have 2 play some hardball.

"However, I can definitely keep up the arms-length Plan A patience and love, THAT is easy enough for me."

Keep improving it, then, if this is your choice (and I understand that choice, as I've been at it for 33+ months now). Keep working 2ward ENDING her A, not letting it flourish. I worry that you're giving her the appearance, even if she's just imagining it, that you're "okay" with the A, so long as sometime down the road (far enough that she doesn't have 2 think about it realistically) she shows signs that she wants 2 reconcile. Because for now, it looks like permission for her 2 continue her A.

-ol' 2long

I see what you're saying 2Long, I really do.

I don't think I'm sanctioning the A ... she knows how I feel about it, I make it abundantly clear that I'm opposed to it, that I think it's wrong, and that it hurts me.

But I also know that this is a woman that is clearly caught up in a whirlwind of emotions. Part of her loves me more than anything and wants us to work out when she's sure I'm better and she's better. But part of her also despises me for the pain I've caused her and would rather be done with me.
And yes, I think part of her recognizes the error of her ways with OM - and is struggling with it and trying to justify it any way she can. I know she feels guilt over the A, she just isn't ready to admit it to ME just yet.

To her, any slack she cuts me feels like she is sanctioning what I did to her. That if she gives me more than she thinks she SHOULD (note I didn't say "more than she wants to" because I think she wants to give me more than she lets herself), that would be condoning my infidelities and preventing me from healing and fixing myself.

She thinks I need to HURT for a LONG TIME before I will fully realize the consequences of my actions, because only by being burned will I never sin again.
She thinks I need a LONG TIME to get to the root of my infidelities so I can heal the wounds and make sure it doesn't happen again.

And in the meantime, she is getting attention from this OM, and she knows it's wrong, but she can't help it because she's in the most textbook-case Foggy EA you can imagine.

Trust me...to hear her talk, the "I love him's" only come out in her more FOGGY and ANGRY moments.
The "he may not be the one for me" and "he confuses things" and "he's immature" and "I'm really alone, ultimately" statements come out in her CALM and RATIONAL moments.

I know this woman.
She loves me very much. She wants to be M'd to me. She knows she is making a mistake with OM, but she can't bring herself to give him up. Sooner or later I think I will Plan A her right out of her Fog. And if I don't, she will have to live knowing she made a big mistake and it's permanent.