Bob, I'm not trying to harp on you, and I want you to fully express yourself here - don't feel censored. I have been where you are. It is a natural part of the recovery process, the rollercoaster.

I thank God each day for the wonderful MB'ers here who took the time to push me along to the next phase, as well. I am certainly not judging you, blaming you, or saying you are wrong. You are where you are, just as I am where I am.

I do know that sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees, when you are so in the middle of so many many trees! It is confusing, scary, and frustrating.

I would like to share with you that this is where I am currently "stuck."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I ACHE to release myself to love her and commit to her fully once more but it really isn't wise yet. Is it ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If/when you find your way past this part, will you let me know??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks!

Spidey

Bob...I was thinking about this last night: what a long way the both of us have come since we first posted in July (I also include FM in this too)...yet what a long road ahead of us. But we are now both on the right track, underailed (is that a word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ), right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't deserve admirers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it was my Catholic upbringing with 7 years of Catholic school...maybe it's just my own value that I plucked from the "drilling" of religion classes in me that has just stuck with me...maybe it's true...

But, who is to say what we or another "deserves?" No disrespect AT ALL. Just a question I've always asked myself to keep things in perspective. (And, I've fumbled many times with the martyr syndrome asking it as well.)

We just have to be thankful for what we do have and how far we've come and who we are at this place, here and now. Didn't say we have to be happy or content. Just thankful. And if we have admirers, smile. You must be doing something right!

Continued blessings and prayers!

I think perhaps a misunderstanding has occurred.

When I read Bobs posts..I'm hearing that he has these..requirements that must be met in order for him to be willing to committ to the marriage.

I think Bob understands that the work will be both painfull and unavoidable.

Climbing over the hills and dragging himself out of the valleys once recovery has begun will indeed be about Bob getting to the next gate..jumping the hurdle..holding fast to his committment...

Today however...that is not the case..

Today Bobs wife is neither remorsefull about her A..nor willing to committ to meeting Bobs needs.

What Bobs wife is willing to do Today is accept the gifts Bob offers her with the hopes of a recovery in the future.

What I feel from Bob is frustration..that the A has ended..the Withdrawl has passed..and his wife seemingly has fallen in a hole of contentment with this inequitable relationship..and shows no signs of even desiring to surface.

Why should she? It's nice having all of your needs met without having to sacrifice anything. Bob knows that this can not continue indefinitely..yet all attempts to address the issues have been unequivically shot down.

Yep..I'd be frustrated too.

So Bob has to decide just how much time he is going to grant her..the candle for him is burning on both ends now. Despite the death of her affair he may yet have to cut ties with her or accept the relationship on her terms. A most unfortunate turn of events..that the A ended while he was yet in plan A..tricky to shift gears and set up boundaries in his position.

I don't think it has anything to do with pride or even necessarily resentment. He is correct..as it now stands..committing to her and trusting her is most unwise. I would sooner hand my wallet to a known thief who has let me know he quite enjoys his crimes..and is only sorry that the glory days had to come to an end.

So if Bobs wife isn't committed to recovery..why is she with him? Short answer? It's easier for her that way. She is more comfortable with things as they are..than she is with the idea of moving out..getting a job and a divorce..not having the freedom to pursue her hobbies [since she'd be supporting herself and probably paying child support to Bob]..public inquiry..all sorts of unpleasant efforts and sacrifices to be made if she really left.

Sooner or later though..Bob will have to force the issue if she doesn't come around on her own.

Either she is in the marriage because it is both her honest and her first choice..or she is out.

Right now though..he doesn't have that. He is in the waiting place ..he has [come to a place where the streets are not marked. Some windows are lighted. But mostly they're darked. A place you could sprain both your elbow and chin! Do you dare to stay out? Do you dare to go in? How much can you lose? How much can you win? And If you go in, should you turn left or right...or right and three quarters? Or, maybe, not quite? Or go around back and sneak in from behind? Simple it's not, I'm afraid you will find, for a mind-maker-upper- to make up his mind.--Dr Suess] to decide what time frame he can live with. Then he'll get to play the *what if* game. If I give her a year..but it takes two...If I give her ten and she never changes her mind...basically he gets to decide which arm he prefers to cut off..because there is going to be regret either way. These are tough decisions. I went through the same thing and ultimately did have to force the issue..are you here because you want to be..or because you are too weak to leave? A question to be posed to both the BS and WS. A question that needs an answer..a definative and unhesitating answer before they can move forward together.

--Noodle

I do agree with you, Noodle. It took my H 3 entire months to defog after the OW dumped him. For 3 months, he chose solitude, and dreams, than taking a chance with his family again. Granted, during those 3 months, there was sporadic contact . . . but when my H did come home, he was eventually able to be remorseful, and we were able to have intelligent and healing conversations about the A.

Everyone is on their own timetables with the fog, healing, recovery, forgiveness, even just acceptance that this is indeed where we are, even if we don't want to be where we are.

I personally believe that it is too soon for Bob's FWW to be defogged and ready to travel down the Recovery road with him. And it is a very frustrating and painful process. Not everyone has the desire, will, whatever, to continue to stick it out, with only the "theory" that it will eventually get better.

Because until it all comes to fruition in your own life, it is all just a theory, is it not? My M is not fully recovered, but I have faith that if I continue down this road (which is not an easy road to walk, by the way), given enough time, I will arrive at full recovery - if there is such a thing.

I encourage Bob to stay the course, because I think the worst is over. The most intense is over. BUT, that is a decision only for him to make. I want to support Bob however I can. I do that by doing things that worked that others did for me.

I am open to the possibility that I am totally off base, and misinterpreting the sitch. If so, just let me know. I got pretty thick skin after posting here for over 6 months.

Spidey

Noodle and SS you have it spoton - however I am just at the strt of that process. I have unconsciously set some rules and I think its a good thing.I will wait for and suppot my FWW as I am able until one of us dies or until it becomes clear that an acceptable recovered M is not possible, either for the reasons noodle cites or some other reason.

I am not looking at 35-40 years of unsatisfactory M. Thats a good thing !

I love her, I agree its early in recovery for her and she ( and I ) need time and patience.

Its just that I have rules for 'plan C' now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I won't be ridden when I deserve to be loved and adored.

SS..

I was in no way attacking you with my post..I do apologise if it looked that way..I read all of the replies on this thread at once and noticed..what looked to me..to be a misunderstanding.

I think we are in about the same place re: recovery.

It took my H almost a year and a half to come out of the fog enough even to realize that he was about to lose his family with his cake eating and continued deceit. That was a pretty long year and a half..and during that time..post A but pre recovery..most of what Bob is expressing was also in my mind. What to do..what to do...how to do it and when. Can I live with either decision..Ugh. Not for any amount of money would I go back. They are participating in your lives together..but have not really closed the door on the destruction. They desire it still..and think of it's loss as a sacrifice. Even now I am not able to talk with my H about how he views the past..how those actions look to him now..I strongly suspect that he hears judgement where there is none..only a desire for change to have occured.

*Sighs*

It's a risky buisiness this recovery..not for the faint of heart. I have needed to be more ruthless and brutal [gently and respectfully of course] in the aftermath of this than at any other time in my life. I am a walking contradiction. Gentle beast. Evil Saint. And Sometimes Just Plain Fed Up. There is yet beauty in the ashes though. Only time will tell..and by then..it's too late <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I won't be ridden when I deserve to be loved and adored. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. I truly believe, Bob, what all my experience tells me, is that your FWW will defog, given time, and at that time you will hear everything you want to hear from her. One of the HARDEST things she has ahead of her is forgiveness of SELF. And, believe it or not, THAT is what I believe hinders most FWS's in the defogging process.

Which is why it can be counter-productive to be her judge and jury yourself. Believe me, she's got enough of that going on in her own head. I know this because FWH and I have talked about it in great detail and at great length. If your FWW feels she is too bad to be loved, that she is unloveable because of her recent behavior (and old buried issues she hasn't dealt with, hence the A in the first place), it makes her own personal recovery very tough indeed.

The way I looked at it (and still do some days), is that H and I began as friends, and that is where we needed to begin again. And we did. First, I had to ACCEPT him for who he is, not who I WANTED him to be. And to do that I had to realize that his behavior does not define him - heck, we all have the darkness in us, to some degree or another.

The best thing I did for my H was I led by example. I accepted him, and showed him that I could move forward. From that, he believed he could, as well. You are the healthiest one in that M right now, Bob, scary as that may seem to you sometimes. Until she finds her legs under her again (so to speak, no puns intended), and can walk on her own, she will need you.

To love, with no expectation of ANYthing in return, is the hardest/most rewarding thing I learned from this A business.

Spidey

Noodle, I didn't think you were saying anything you weren't. I have learned from these boards how 2-dimentional typing is hard to understand the gist of what people are saying sometimes. Perhaps I was just fishing for clarification.

I am sorry you find yourself a walking contradiction. I am sorry you are not in a good place in your recovery? I admit I haven't followed your story, as I cannot follow everyone, unfortunately.

I do enjoy your quote in Cymanca's sig line, something about not protecting people from the consequences of their own actions. Very true, and very hard to do.

Spidey

FWW wants to redecorate our house. Thats fair enough, I let it get a little scruffy while I withdrew to concentrate on my employment these past coupla years. We went to visit some new 'showhomes' yesterday lunchtime so we could get some styling decoration ideas. We liked the houses too ! FWW talking about the future a lot, " we" and " us " talk.

She seemed to be reasonably happy.

After dinner I drove my SSs friend home (we always have other kids in our house playing !) and stopped off at the Mall. I bought FWW a couple of interior design magazines and a * small * box of her favourite chocolates. She was touched and loved the unexpected gift !

Drinking a gass of fine and eating a Run Truffle she smiled and said to me " I'm in a NICE place ! "

Made me happy to see my baby happy.

Later on there was a TV program we both enjoy called " a thing called love". Hard to explain but its a pretty detailed expression of the different facets of love through a well acted drama. The storyline included people describing their search for true love in higly articulate ways and ( tellingly) a man who felt he was too dirty t have a relationship with anyone as he had a sordid affair and LOVED it while his loving W was working next door. She died later that year and he had notfeel worthy of a relationship with anyone ever since.

FWW closed up, went very sad and contemplative.

I asked her " Is it anything I can help you with, baby ?" She said no.

Later in bed I said " I am sorry that you are sad. I belive there will be less sadness over time for both of us until one day we will be happy again. Maybe happier than ever."
She smiled, weakly.

We read for a while. I patted her and said "please talk to me about your sadness and your feelings, baby. Do not worry it will hurt me.Communication is the currency of our recovering our M".

She smiled again, and closed her eyes to sleep.

I kissed her very gently. " God bless you my darling".

My point ? Well...without FWW telling me * she can't yet) I belive the TV program reawakened her belief that OM was her true love and sadness that it can never be. OR she felt that I am her one true love and she is not worthy of me now.

I suspect the former.

Not sure what to do now but love and support her, avoid LBs and 'be there'. She doesn't know her feelings for OM will change over time as she won;t read SAA or look on this site.

She thinks she will be heartbroken for ever over him.

God knows its cr@p being a FBS, but I'm pretty sure its no picnic being a FWW either. Poor girl.

I hope she knows how much I care for her.

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Hey noodle...I think you owe Bob some royalties:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*Sighs*</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but I'm pretty sure its no picnic being a FWW either. Poor girl.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's feelings like this and little expressions you show and do where the admiration comes in. My goodness, Bob. (I was about to replay your most recent past--it's gone now though.) But what you've been through, to find the strength, conviction, dedication--love--God's direction...and the tenderness and warmth you show and express....

I was hoping you might pop on tonight--across the big puddle, me awake at this ungodly hour in the US and you awake at an ungodly hour in the UK. heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I do not know if this will be encouraging to you or not, but I want to tell you part of my story and the stuff I regret NOT doing now that I lived through it. Remember, for me the end result was divorce but tremendous personal recovery. Okay...tremendous in my mind! heehee!

My exH left our family on Feb. 3, 1999, to move out-of-state to be with his OW. Not only was he a neglectful parent, he disappeared. He didn't call the kids, didn't send any child support, and obviously did not spend time or visit with them. He just was gone. Now, I understand if you no longer love your spouse...but to just leave his kids behind like that?? It was not something I could even comprehend!

During that time we had periodic BUSINESS contact (we were trying to run a family business together when he left), so I did kind of hear from him from time to time...but he was just plain HATEFUL. There is no other word for it: HATEFUL.

I began to pull myself together and see some of my own faults. I began to work on myself and enjoy my children (thank God for my earthbound angels!) and feel joy again a little. Then almost as suddenly as he left, he returned on Father's Day (June) and moved back home. At the time his reason was, "The kids deserve two parents" and at the time I was just thrilled to have him back home rather than in her arms.

"Pay attention HERE Bob. This is the good part. When my WH came home, he made it clear that he was NOT home because he loved me or wanted to repair our marriage. He was only home because of the kids. Later on I pieced together that his OW had broken up with him. Anyway, he came home in a FOUL mood. He absolutely hated me, was short-tempered and snappy with the kids, and kicked puppies and old ladies (little humor injected there). Not only did he NOT apologize for dumping me and the kids, or apologize for his affair, or apologize for almost killing me--he expected ME to earn him back!! Heck, nothing personal, but I didn't really want a man back who could just leave his family!!!

The important point here: MY H WAS PHYSICALLY HOME, BUT IN HIS HEAD THE A WAS NOT OVER. Not only was I not his "second prize"--I was an unwanted "booby prize"!!!!

Okay, I bucked up. I was not perfect, but I did a very good Plan A with which I was satisfied. Even though he refused to participate in recovery or to discuss his emotional needs, I gave what I hoped was an "educated guess" what his EN's were. I made plans every day to meet his top three EN's at least twice, and I learned to avoid LB's. I learned how to express anger appropriately and practiced every technique that I knew. I learned how to express my feelings while maintaining personal responsibility and not being blaming. I practiced...sometimes I did well and other times I didn't do so well but I did learn from every encounter.

He was vicious--cruel, really. He kept contacting the OW and doing it right in front of me. He would not touch me even for a hug or to sit by me, and he refused to let me touch him in any way. He claimed maybe it was E.D.!!!!

Finally, during the Holidays that year, he left again to go live with OW again. He spent the Millenium New Year with her, calling me to scream at me because I was awake. I failed. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Pay attention HERE--another good part Do you know what I regret doing while he was home from June to December? I was faithful...I learned and changed and put my changes into actions...I executed Plan A well. But I look back on it now and regret that I did not stand up for myself, not in a selfish/taker kind of way, but in a "I respect myself" kind of way.

I did love my H and honestly still do in many ways. His choices destroyed "us", and I can't change that. But I sincerely do look back and regret that I didn't love myself enough to say, "I will not be your emotional punching bag. I am worthy of respect, and you can either treat me respectfully or I can live without you. I am worthy of intimate, transparent honesty, and you can either be open with me or share with me or I can live without you."

I can't say for sure, but I think my H might have respected me more if *I* had respected me more.

Bob, you can not control your W--we know that, right? Nor can you control what she does or does not reveal or what she does or does not feel. But it does not bode well that she would be this soul-disturbed by a show about feeling unworthy of love and not be open with you about it. Maybe she does not feel it's safe to be open. Maybe she feels like when she IS honest, she just gets yelled at when she's vulnerable. Consider whether you have created an environment for her that communicates she is safe to open up. And if you have...let's just say I'm concerned.

It's fairly early in recovery, but I see edges of complacency setting in. She has no need to grow as a woman, or POJA, or treat you respectfully, or be a PARTNER in this marriage because everything is easy and given to her right now. She can escape all her consequences, because she has none. And the key word there is "ESCAPE."

Just some weird, heavy thoughts I'm having. I'm worried for you...and for your lovely one.


CJ

Hi Bob, I truly understand what you are going through but imagine being me instead. 8 months past discovery, my WS still hasn't kissed me, touched me, had SF, hasn't once asked how I'm doing, how are the kids, never initiates any conversation about our M .... get the picture. You really seem in a much better place than me hence we are separating.

I hope to God by my drastic action, he will take the necessary steps to work his way back into our family and my heart. I know it is possible but I'm not counting on it. I cannot make our M work on my own.

Your wife is at least trying. You are bound to feel resentment, betrayal and unloved. She has destroyed a big chunk of your soul. I don't really have any advice other to say things could be worse! TT

* TT I have said many times that my sitiation is better than many or even most folks on here, although early on it WAS a bit of a soap opera.

I have no excuse for posting up my fear on here other than I have no-one else to talk to that you folks. SO many of you are informed, wise and opinionated that its invaluable to me. Please don't think I am throwing a pity party, I'm not.
I had only a couple of months of the situation you have endured for so long now and my heart goes out to you. But when, please God, you and your WS enter recovery you will find that once the BIG stuff is achieved (I.e. end of A, WS at home NC etc) you begin to sweat the small stuff as so many tiny components can affect the success of recovery. I feel like a child abroad in a wilderness of adults: clueless. Scared.

All blessings to you TT. I hope you swap your dreadful problems for my lesser level of problems soon !

* CJ, I see what you are saying. Far be it for me to step in a defend the woman I have criticized here.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but maybe I have misrepresented her.

She has lost all the aggression and spite she had during the fog. She really does appear to be committed to me and our M, and she says so. She is lovely to the children and most of the time is pleasant and affectionate to me.

If OM called her...well, I dunno what she'd do, but thank God he is very unlikely so to do according to his GF.

She has phases where I can see the love for me in her eyes. Then phases when she is distant and sad. All this is borne out by the wonderful recovered FWWs on his site who say they recovered love for their BS in a stop-start way, with the 'love' periods increasing over time as their love banks filled.

My FWW is behaving in this way.

She used to grieve for OM all the time, but now its not so often. Last evening was the first time in a week. Her plumbing issues are still not resolved and this too makes her miserable and uncomfortable AND she says she misses SF with me ! ( a good sign !)

All told, the only thing I would hope for from FWW is more communication over the A and our Recovery. She won't say why she won't discuss it but again, reticence to discuss this is classic withdrawal/early recovery behaviour from a FWW who WANTS to recover the M ,reading on here.

Perhaps she is getting ASHAMED of the A. Maybe it makes her DESIRE the A so she blocks it off. I dunno. But thats the only missing bit right now for me.
Until yesterday CJ I also belived she was complacent, eagerly eating up my best efforts to make her a loving life without any discomfort to her. After our discussion yesterday (thanks for the confidence CJ!) I know thats not true. I feel she is dancing on the edge of the abyss and isn't certain she is not alone.

I note your warning CJ, but I don't think I am fooling myself that we are not in that place yet.

I really think now that I am certain my fww knows :
* I am hurting badly despite my plan A visage
* I am happy to defer discussion of the A until FWW is able to do so, but not indefinitely.
* I love you, and I am eager to forgive you if you want to be forgiven.
* Your truth will not hurt me more than lies and silence.Please tell me how you are feeling all the time.

Now she knows this I can give her time, and try to enjoy loving her for a while. Try to let this offset my hurt a little.

See ?

{{{cj}}}

Went for a Chinese buffet luch. VERY relaxed, discussed some stuff about decorating then she came out with THIS out of the blue :"

"I never really belonged to anyone else you know, Baby. I always knew it was a diversion, and a bad one. I couldn't help myself - his flattery was too , too charming and you and I'd been having all those heavy discusisons about togetherness and Karate... It didn;t 'just happen' but It was like trying drugs to see what they are like. I was never a junkie. I...I... "
Then she reached across and kissed me like her life depended on it...

" You're lovely "

Dear God I think she's getting there...yesterday's discussion was timely it seems. Thats more personal than she has been so far.

* side point - she said some very NICE things about my "attractiveness" too * Ahem *. Wants SF with me BAD but plumbing prevents for the time being.

Must did out those Barry White albums...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Isn';t it odd how uninstinctive bravery almoist always pays off for the BS ?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(That's all I've got to say!)

CJ, what a gift sharing that story with us all here. When my H first left us, I literally thought I would die. Then, I woke up the next morning, alone and alive, and realized my truth was greater than I imagined. I went from on my knees begging the night before he left, to being able to calmly tell him what *I* would require for him to come home - NC, continue with MC, open honest communciation, and for both of us to keep our new-found individual space.

My H says that after 2 months of our 3 month separation, THAT is when he began to notice the changes in me. And, THAT is what got his attention, made his desire to come home turn into a GOAL to come home - earn his way home. And, he sure did! He sent OW a NC email, and was not even TEMPTED to contact her again. NC was his decision, and it stuck.

I don't have any regrets about things I did during our separation, or since H has come home. I wish it would have gone a little FASTER, as some days seemed to last for years, weeks seemed like eons! I can still remember some things so vividly. But I don't regret. It is all a process, and one can only go as fast as their mind/heart/soul can get them there. So CJ, don't regret. You did the best you could in the sitch you were in at the time. Honestly, if my H had come back during the first month or two, I could have done what you did. I was not ready before he came home. I am grateful that he didn't come home until we were BOTH ready for it. That makes a HUGE difference.

And Bob, when I read that story of you and your W watching that show, MY interpretation (albeit I was not THERE, just my first sense of the sitch) was that she was regretting like that man was regretting - having an A, enjoying it at the time, and regretting it now - not thinking she is even worthy of your love anymore. If someone feels unloveable, unworthy, they are not capable of receiving love from ANYone, to include themselves. Perhaps IC would be in order for her, if she is willing. Perhaps she needs to sort her own feelings out, before she can hope to share them with you.

Like I said, by the time my H came home, he was committed to working on us. He had had 3 months of IC, we had both been seeing a MC together for a while, so we had a "safe" environment to talk. We don't need the safety of the MC office anymore, but sometimes we still need slight nudges in the right direction.

Before you can do the hard work, you are going to have to master some of the new tools you have learned. And your FWW will, as well. My H and I use our new tools each and every day to recover our M. If your FWW doesn't want to read, Bob, what about you reading to her out loud each night? An intimate, sharing of words and thoughts and ideas. In a quiet, safe, intimate setting. Be her friend, Bob. Accept her, flaws and all.

My H told me yesterday that the reason he hurt me so badly during the A, is because I was closest to him. So while he struggled in his own self, fighting his feelings/addiction, and lashed out, naturally I got hit (metaphorically, of course - he never hit me, thank goodness) the very most, the very hardest. And he also told me that no other person on this planet knows him like I do - nobody has ever seen that deep dark place inside him. Not the BEST place to know, but it is a part of him. We cannot only love the good, we must love the whole. And I, for one, know what my H's whole IS. I find comfort in that.

Peace to all!

Spidey

Isn';t it odd how uninstinctive bravery almoist always pays off for the BS ?

At first I think it is uninstinctive at first but after a month or so there has to be a choice to be brave. You made the choice to be courageous.

Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. --Ambrose Bierce

good job, bob

dbl

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

triple....gov't computer suck

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

D_rose I had gotten out of the habit of calm bravery. CJ got me back in it.

" Faint Heart Never Won Fair Maid"

Note BS'. Be brave. It pays.