</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong>

Isn';t it odd how uninstinctive bravery almoist always pays off for the BS ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YESSIR! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I find myself swirling in the toliet of frustration and then what happens? I suddenly get proof of life. Yes! It happens when I least expect it and it's typically a day or 2 after I've done something that I didn't see as heroic yet it was risky if applied inappropriately. I do find myself wondering if it's the fog lifting that helps or is it that my mistakes are growing fewer and farther inbetween..maybe it's a little of both.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
<strong> Isn';t it odd how uninstinctive bravery almoist always pays off for the BS ?

At first I think it is uninstinctive at first but after a month or so there has to be a choice to be brave. You made the choice to be courageous.

Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. --Ambrose Bierce

good job, bob </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent Quote!

Bob,

I'd like to clear up one quick thing before I proceed. I told you my story to relate to you that I regretted not respecting myself, and to relate that looking back on it now, I suspect my exH would have respected me more if I had respected myself more. Also, I wanted to let you know that I too felt like second choice and not someone he really loved--and I think feeling that way is somewhat normal.

In No Way, did I mean to insinuate that your FWW and my exH were/are anything alike. My exH was purposely cruel and vicious to me--and from what I can see from your posts, your FWW is fairly pleasant and treats you pretty well. It is also my observation that your FWW it seems as if she is trying her best but just does not know what ENs and LBs are, POJA, or any of that...thus doesn't really have vocabulary or a frame of reference. Hard to recover when there are no concepts to frame it in, huh?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So if I communicated any disrespect or lack of caring for your FWW, I sincerely apologize. I was/am concerned that she is not being open with you, and that lack of openness can easily turn to "secrecy"--so maybe it's just me, but that scares me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> ...then she came out with THIS out of the blue:"

"I never really belonged to anyone else you know, Baby. I always knew it was a diversion, and a bad one. I couldn't help myself - his flattery was too , too charming and you and I'd been having all those heavy discusisons about togetherness and Karate... It didn;t 'just happen' but It was like trying drugs to see what they are like. I was never a junkie. I...I... "
Then she reached across and kissed me like her life depended on it... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, I have another story for you. Now you stop rolling your eyes!

Before my exH moved out to live with his OW, I knew in my heart that things weren't good between us, but I longed for him and him alone. I just didn't know what the problem was or how to fix it. I wanted to have his time, attention and love, and what I got was a cold, closed response. Then, when he moved out...well you know the damage that's done.

I got a job working for the govt., and while I was at work there was a pretty good looking guy who asked me out to lunch every day. Now, my heart and my love and my life was with my H. I was trying to figure out what happened, work on myself, save our M...so I kept pleasantly laughing and telling that fella, "No thank you" in a polite way. And while my H was off in another state, not caring one bit about whether the kids and I were alive or dead, this man was just pleasant to me, smiled, joked, and occasionally said something nice like, "Oh, that outfit looks nice on you." See?? Nothing too flirty or sexy--just office pleasantries.

In the summer, my exH returned home and my life and focus was on him and saving our M. But as I told you in the previous story, my exH was very cruel and vicious. I can't tell you how many times he'd keep me up all night screaming at me, and then I'd try to go into work and be productive...and that man could see that I was a mess and just said, "Don't worry about your job. You just keep smiling and do your best." At the time, it meant A LOT to me. Also, every now and then he'd say a little offhand comment like, "You are so smart--I just enjoy talking to you" or "You're so FUNNY!" and I'd think to myself, "How can one man who doesn't even know me think I'm smart and funny, when the man I love who KNOWS me thinks I'm worthless???!!!"

Obviously my self-esteem was in the toilet. Years of being told I was stupid and worthless had me believing maybe I was... Well, when my exH decided to leave again and go back to OW for the Holidays, I lost it. I was broken to the core and just figured "this is it...we are done." So one day when that man asked me out to lunch (it was our daily joke by then), I said YES. Yes, I'll go to lunch with you.

Bob, I'm happy to say that I did not get sexual with that man, but I did begin to see what WS's mean when they say, "it just happened" or "I loved you but I couldn't help myself." I do not look back on it and think this man took advantage of me or anything--he was just a nice man who thought I was a nice lady; and he never treated me in any way other than gentlemanly and respectful. But can you see it a little?

I was not even worth my H's time, attention or energy. I was unloved and unliked by him. I was hurt and abused by him. And yet...my whole life and whole heart and all of myself and my love were his. While I was being told in a million ways by the man I loved that I was worthless and irritating and unattractive--this man in the office thought I was funny and had good ideas and just thought I was a person who was interesting. I remember clearly one day when he said one of those comments, "you're so funny" and I thought, "Who? ME?? You think I'm funny??"

In real life, I am a hoot of a person. I have a sense of humor that is witty, plays on words but is intelligent like Dennis Miller, and is also at times a bit Monty Python-esque! I am cute as a button; intelligent and quick witted; pleasant and optimistic; supportive and gentle--I am a wonderful person. But at THAT time...I knew it in my head but I was stunned that someone else saw that in me.

My GUESS--having had the brief peek as WS-dom that I did--is that you were busy with work or gone traveling, and had no time to just talk with your W and enjoy the woman she is. You were busy with bills and obligations and sometimes you were curt with her (a little stab to the heart) due to a bill or some scheduling with the kids...you know how domestic things get in the way and ENs don't get met. Along come karate, and she is GREAT at it! So she feels good about herself and no matter what LB you said to her, she KNEW that she was good at karate. THEN...along comes the sneaky snake, and just makes some nice comments to her--little compliments that mean He Notices. And it probably bowled her over. Holy SMOKES--someone thinks I'm neato (or pretty, or smart, or funny, or...)!!!

Now, if you FWW had had ANY kind of knowledge (like I did) she might have recognized the symptoms for what they were and stopped it cold like I did. But she didn't! And let's face it: there's Bob at home upset about some bill...and there's sneaky snake at karate (where she feels good) telling her she's smart and funny and beautiful. She falls for it and starts to believe the fantasy--and then pretty soon she's so far in that she CAN'T deny the fantasy without losing some dignity and being humiliated. She HAS to pretend the fantasy is real or she'll look stupid. And she wants to be smart, funny, pretty, and valuable--but all along she wanted to be smart, funny, pretty and valuable TO YOU...the man she loved and married.

Have fun with that story--see what you can get out of it!


CJ

FNCJ, your analogy is clear now and VERY useful ! Many thanks ! If u read my updates I have already girded my loins somewhat. I feel much better and FWW is responding already more positively since our talk the other day.

Being patient does not mean being passive. It is being in a state of 'watchful waiting'.

Regarding today's parable CJ, it hurts me a little if I am honest. It is clear that FWW 'needed' OMs flattery at that time and it deposited in her love bank BUT I was in no way abusive, or even unloving. FWW deliberately excluded me from the world of Karate that she built for herself. I should've confronted her unaccepotable independence rather than just trying to discuss it but I didn't.

Shje even told me ( in fog, but maybe some truth here) that she KNEW I wanted to fix our M but she chose not to, and chose instead to make her EA a PA.
Heartbreaking.

Anyway, details of that will come out in the wash.

I am just enjoying her candour, respect and LUST for me ! (lot sof passonate kisses, eye gazing and a desire for SF since our talk - mebbe she really DOES need me to be more forthright at this stage of recovery. If ONLY that plumbing stuff could be fixed ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I have started reminding myself that I am deliberately hurting myself with memories of the sexual infidelity and stopping that stupidness. Its NEVER going to be undone so pointless for me to remember deliberately.

Its like a demon tapping me on the shoulder saying " don't love her too much, she's an oathbreaker - look at this movie of their sex".

Must get rid of that !

Bob,

I'm sorry you felt hurt when you read my parable, but it does hurt to hear the truth sometimes. It especially hurts to bring up the past, to remember what happened, and to think as a BS that some of our own behavior contributed to this. I can remember feeling very hurt and sad to think that my behavior and my anger had introduced a bad spirit into our marriage.

And just so you know, I do know that you were not abusive--my exH WAS and you WERE NOT. However, maybe you were negectful or maybe it didn't even go that far...maybe you just "carried on" with family life and forgot to keep complimenting her or keep being interested in her. Maybe she just became THIRD on the list (behind work and kids) and that's all that was needed for the sneaky snake to have a little opening to get into her heart.

Finally, I totally want to comment on "the sex movie." This is a typical mind response to a trauma--to keep replaying the trauma over and over. And make no mistake, the BS goes through a TRAUMA on D-day when the A is discovered. It rocks your very core beliefs, and your soul is traumatized! I happen to be a PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) survivor, and one way that works for me is being present in the present. Long story short, I was physically abused as a child, and when I see something out of the side of my eye coming toward me, I panic inside. For a brief moment, my mind's eye relives all the swinging broom-handles and boards, and I feel that "struck by lightening" electricity that accompanies FEAR. (BTW, it has been a long, long time now since I've had such a PTSD panic attack, thanks in part to this technique). Sooo...what works for me is to start to recognize when I am BEGINNING to go down that road. I am aware enough to notice that the first two symptoms of starting to freak out are present. At that point, as soon as I realize that it is starting, I stop what I'm doing for a minute, and take some time to be very, very "here and now" in the present.

Some practical examples specifically for you. As soon as you recognize that your head is kind of going into that "sex movie" mode, stop what you are doing. Tell your mind "Stop it." Look around you right then and there and notice where you are and what your doing. Are you with your FWW?? What color is her dress/blouse? Is she wearing lipstick? Do her eyes look pretty today? Are you having lunch or breakfast? Is it particularly tasty? Just use your senses right then and there: sight, sound, taste, touch, smell. At the same time, tell your mind, "That's the PAST. Right now, I am in my home, happy and comfortable. My W is with me, and she loves me. She is happy to be here, and I could reach out and touch her RIGHT NOW if I wanted to. We are eating a lovely, enjoyable lunch and she desires ME! RIGHT NOW, here today, I am in a marriage that is recovering. Things are GOOD."

Get it??

It's like stopping your mind (and the "sex movie") in it's tracks and reprogramming it with new, current, PRESENT stuff. The past IS the past and does need to be addressed in the sense of addressing what went wrong and where your weaknesses are...her weaknesses are...etc. But so often people get so stuck in their past that trauma, that they can not enjoy their present!


CJ

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

I certainly missed something that FWW neeeded at the time. I hope to find out what that was some day soon. I think ( barefoot MC here!) that she needed to be viewed as 'more exciting' than a wife and mother. Turning forty hit her very very hard, and she is admitting that now.She keeps talking about more babies too, though not directly. Mid life crisis perhaps ?

We have discussed this quite a bit over the last few days ( not in the context of the A just me , well, listening to how she feels and wants to tell me. I never dreamed Forty would be such a turning point for her. But now I come to think, once she turned 40 :

* she changed her minivan for a turbo sports coupe monster
* she stsrted at the gym 4 time sper week as well as karate training 3 times
* She threw herself into weekend activities with Karate ( including OM some of the time)

She started this before she met OM properly, so I think she was already affected by her age before the EA started prior to the PA.

Amybe I just reminded her that she was a 40 YO wife and mum while OM reminded her she was a pretty and interesting woman ?

Dunno

Thanks CJ {{{cj}}}