</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A lot of what said to VM is right on the money but it can be equally said to his WW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all reality, that doesn't matter at all because she is NOT the one posting here. HE is. Therefore, HE is the one that has to make the changes. I just feel that it is counterproductive to HIS own healing when the attention keeps going back to what SHE is doing...when he should be concentrating on bettering himself.

Let her post...and she will hear the same thing.

Until then, HIS actions and contributions to the demise of the marriage should be what he concentrates on fixing.

As Always....JMVHO

committed

CAL, TMCM...
Thanks for your responses, I really do appreciate them...
Here are a few updates for ya...


She called again after my latest post and said the following:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know who I married</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will always have a place for you in my heart</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eventually the active love I feel for you will die, but I will always love you</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This isn't about OM, this is about you and me</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to move on with my life without you, I may be with OM, I may not</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to help me get away from you (referring to our apartment, divorce $), you owe it to me</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was thinking that maybe someday we WOULD get back together up until this happened, now there is no way</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want a divorce as soon as possible</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Yes, I have heard every word of this before. Every single word.

And finally...she sends me this email this morning:

Subj: Print this out and give it to your therapist

To VM's therapist,

I think you should know it is important to realize that VM has some VERY deep rooted issues. I am not a doctor but I suspect some sort of narcissistic problem or sexual addiction. There has been an endless stream of women during our marriage and even before we got married. Our own marriage started off as an affair since he was married at the time. I was once again told of another person that he has slept with during the course of our marriage. He has a tendency to lie about other things in his life not related to his infidelities to make him seem something he is not. I myself will be getting as FAR away from this person as I can, I deem him dangerous to me. Our marriage is over but I hope you can help this man and save him from destroying more lives.

Sincerely,
VM's BS


Interesting, eh? I would love to hear what ya think of THAT one.


CAL , you are right. I have done an even larger measure of damage to her now with this latest deception. She has suffered more than a few of these types of deceptions, and I know each one has beaten her down one more level.
I can only HOPE that this one isn't as final as she said last night.
But, I do want you to realize that I HAD started focusing less on getting her back and more on me. Last week's NC with her really helped me alot on that front, as you can see from my posts over last weekend. I was feeling much better, up until yesterday when she said "you seem to have moved on and have no remorse" - which was the subject of my post re: "how to respond to BS/WW?"

And now in light of all this, I'm sticking to those guns, since I have one more reason to think I've lost her for good. I DO have a lot of work ahead of me, and I can't do it WITH or FOR anyone but myself.

TMCM ...I can only hold on and wait for the inevitable, whatever that is. Yes, I have heard all these words before, but every single time she has to say them is another nail in the coffin.

I HAVE started the logistics of giving her what she seems to want - even if she decides not to take me up on it. Do you recommend this? Should I start making plans to help her out of the apartment, pay for the DV, help her with her car (her car is under my name & the company I work for) so that she sees that I'm trying to help her....or is that what SH warns about "don't have a contingency plan?"

I don't want her to think I'm EAGER to separate and DV if that's not what she really wants, but I also don't want to drag my feet and be seen by her as uncooperative.

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I HAVE started the logistics of giving her what she seems to want - even if she decides not to take me up on it. Do you recommend this? Should I start making plans to help her out of the apartment, pay for the DV, help her with her car.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that would be the decent thing to do after all she has been through. Let her get on with her life. The faster, the better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I HAVE started the logistics of giving her what she seems to want - even if she decides not to take me up on it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that would be the decent thing to do after all she has been through. Let her get on with her life. The faster, the better. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I'm tempted to delay, to hang on, to let things ride for a few weeks, because I've been down this road with her already a few times, we've played this "discovery/admission of lie -> threat of divorce & breakdown -> gradual return to wait & see attitude" game a couple of times.

I just hope this wasn't the proverbial straw on the camel's back. But then, I've said THAT before too.

I guess my brain & heart and struggling with the idea that
The best chance we have of future reconciliation lies in letting her go completely for right now.
She's destroyed, and has continued to be destroyed by this latest admission. The LB's were over for awhile, and now I'm back to square one.

So.....maybe if I let her go NOW, for REAL this time, and REALLY focus on working on myself, she WILL be more likely to consider future reconciliation than she ever has.

That's not what she's saying, of course...but...

Maybe the problem, all the back & forth of the last month, has been that I've been too worried about her and not enough about myself.

It's logical, it makes sense.....but it's SO HARD to believe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

VM:

Just wanted 2 let you know I'm swamped at work at the moment, but I intend 2 come back when I can with some thoughts here.

-ol' 2long

Yes your character during the time you were having your ONS was truly reprehensible and very damaging, but so is her present character. Let's review the following:

1. By her own admission, she got involved with you with full knowledge that you were a married man.

2. She is in an ongoing affair for which she refuses to take any responsibility for it or even consider an affair.

3. She beleives she has the right to break her marital vows but not you.

4. She did not come clean as to those e-mail messages of love she wrote to the OM, did she?

Does this sound like a woman that any man would want as a W?

You may not be husband materiel [yet], but she is far from being considered by any emotionally healthy man wife materiel [except the idiot OM].

Time for Plan B.

OK, 2long, thanks, I always look 4ward 2 what you have 2 say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

VM:

Okay, got a few minutes before the next meeting. Sorry if this has been touched on by other posters. I haven't read the whole thing yet.

"he put a bug in her ear re: "are you sure VM has been totally honest about all of his A's?"
He hinted that he had priveleged info from another source...another patient, connected to my former band perhaps. He didn't violate confidentiality laws, but he did get her thinking about it, a way that made her think that he knew more about the band than he was allowed to say."

EXCUUUUSE ME!!!!! Even if this isn't a violation of confidentiality laws, this guy is GANGING UP against you. I can't figure out why, but he should not DO THIS without YOU in the room 2 SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

"And...
I HAD hidden one last A from her. I admitted it to my BS/WW tonight."

And this may be a deal breaker for her. It always hurts the BS 2 go through additional D-days.

"So...I guess this is it. I guess I don't need to post here anymore, because I really think my W is done."

After a month? No, you're not "done" and neither is she. It's going 2 get rougher though.

"Maybe I'd be doing her a favor by letting her go."

Yes, and you'd be doing yourself a favor by letting go of the need for control of whatever outcome your facing. letting go is a healthy thing 2 do.

Must go,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:
"he put a bug in her ear re: "are you sure VM has been totally honest about all of his A's?"
He hinted that he had priveleged info from another source...
EXCUUUUSE ME!!!!! Even if this isn't a violation of confidentiality laws, this guy is GANGING UP against you. I can't figure out why, but he should not DO THIS without YOU in the room 2 SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I thought it was strange...the conversation started off oddly, too...
She TM'd me right after her IC appt. to say "you can never speak to [former bandleader] ever again, do you understand me?? he is evil and has destroyed more lives than you know about."
I replied that that was fine, I'm not interested in dealing with him anymore...
But then it lead into the discussion noted above.

So somehow my former bandleader is connected to my BS's IC, either his own XW saw him, or HE saw him, or something...and somehow I guess the IC already had info from that patient re: the additional A.
I also speculated that my FOW "A" was a patient of his and spilled things that she knew.
Doesn't matter now I guess.
I thought this guy was "pro-M" but apparently he seems to think that I need to be as far from her as possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
"And...
I HAD hidden one last A from her. I admitted it to my BS/WW tonight."

And this may be a deal breaker for her. It always hurts the BS 2 go through additional D-days.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know...I promised her and myself there would be no more trauma, but by hiding this one I set us up for it eventually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
All these things you get with 20/20 hindsight...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
"So...I guess this is it. I guess I don't need to post here anymore, because I really think my W is done."

After a month? No, you're not "done" and neither is she. It's going 2 get rougher though.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean...I should just stick to Plan A as far as ACTIONS OVER WORDS and be loving and calm still? Yes, of course.
Do you and I think there's any chance she might still come around?
Hard to say. I'm trying to convince myself that she will...and....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
"Maybe I'd be doing her a favor by letting her go."

Yes, and you'd be doing yourself a favor by letting go of the need for control of whatever outcome your facing. letting go is a healthy thing 2 do.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The real mood behind that statement was "she deserves better than me," beating myself up. But then I remember that we DID have a great love, and she DOES still love me despite all of this.

Even though she's saying NOW that we'll never be together again, perhaps what she's really waiting for is a time when "she deserves a BETTER me."

After the NC from last Tuesday, I actually was starting to feel comfortable with not being in her face and working only to get her back. I was actually pretty OK this past weekend. I was dedicated to leaving her as alone as she wanted to be left, focusing on myself, and letting the cards fall where they may.

But right this second.....I'm back to feeling extremely sad and wanting her back more than life itself.....

I've been entertaining the notion, after I help her get out of our apartment and get her car squared away, of leaving the state and going to where my parents live and starting over. I'm sure she'd be glad to have me further than 3 blocks away as I am now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Vnus,
This is a toughy, and this is somewhat familiar for me just check my sig line. I tried everything I could for as long as I could and then I let go. I was the WS, my wife went from BS to WS. I wanted to repair everything, make it all better, but it was more my need to control my W and pride than it was LOVE for my W. If I was acting out of love than I would have probably let her go quicker. I gave up trying to reason with her and started to focus on my own life. It was excruciating! My W was with OM while I was out on my kester, but you know what happened? All it took was time for my W to realize OM couldn’t fulfill all her EN’s. If you add the lack of EN’s being met by OM and also the fact OM had “No Clue” being OM was a heck of a lot easier than being a Boyfriend! I worked on me and not necessarily just to woo my W back, but I did hope she noticed my positive changes and growth. My W and I were separated for almost a year and half, then we started dating, and a few months later we were back together. The biggest downside was how I underestimated my W’s R with OM, I thought OM was just a fill-in, little did I know my W actually took this kid seriously and was still partly in love with him when her and I got back together.

My point is, give her exactly what she wants as best you can anyway. The fact is you have hurt her repeatedly, and even if she is just crying wolf that doesn’t give you the right to manipulate this situation to your advantage. Please understand what I’m saying, because I’m not trying to jump on your case friend, I’ve had an A and dated while I was M or then later separated. It’s time you become a better *Man. A better man will look at his actions and want to improve himself, he wants to grow, he wants to right his wrongs, he will also take the short end of the stick if he deserves it. You do deserve the short end of the stick friend, and its possible if you show you have the ability to treat your W with grace and love eventhough you are getting the short end of the stick…well, it might go along way. I would look at this as an opportunity. Now, does this mean your W may go live with OM? I hope not, I’m sure you hope not, but realistically you can’t control that anyway right? You can’t go back and make different choices about those women you had A’s with, you wish you could but you cannot. What you can do now is be heroic in your own way TODAY. I’m sure others will say don’t take a chance on losing your W to OM, but in my experience and in my humble opinion if that’s going to be how this story plays out there’s nothing you or I can do about it. I know my summation sounds dreary but I also believe if your W is supposed to come back to you then she will. I’m not saying fate, but I’m saying you already know deep down inside if this is the end or not. I’ve got a feeling you know this is not the end of your M. I’ve got a feeling you might have to eat a little crow for a while, but your W has a thing for you that she can’t shake very easily. I’d focus on pleasing her as best I can, since you are the one who’s been hurting her, and I’d focus on bettering myself. My W now admits there were many times during our separation that she was wondering if I would take her back, one of the reasons it took so long for her to come back was she thought after all of my changes that I was *too good for her. Go figure, me who betrayed her and cut her to the core had changed so much that in her mind I had become too good for her????

Good luck Vnus, it aint over till we say it is and WE get to decide when we say it right?

Right!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Vnus,
This is a toughy, and this is somewhat familiar for me just check my sig line. I tried everything I could for as long as I could and then I let go. I was the WS, my wife went from BS to WS. I wanted to repair everything, make it all better, but it was more my need to control my W and pride than it was LOVE for my W. If I was acting out of love than I would have probably let her go quicker. I gave up trying to reason with her and started to focus on my own life. It was excruciating! My W was with OM while I was out on my kester, but you know what happened? All it took was time for my W to realize OM couldn’t fulfill all her EN’s. If you add the lack of EN’s being met by OM and also the fact OM had “No Clue” being OM was a heck of a lot easier than being a Boyfriend! I worked on me and not necessarily just to woo my W back, but I did hope she noticed my positive changes and growth. My W and I were separated for almost a year and half, then we started dating, and a few months later we were back together. The biggest downside was how I underestimated my W’s R with OM, I thought OM was just a fill-in, little did I know my W actually took this kid seriously and was still partly in love with him when her and I got back together.

My point is, give her exactly what she wants as best you can anyway. The fact is you have hurt her repeatedly, and even if she is just crying wolf that doesn’t give you the right to manipulate this situation to your advantage. Please understand what I’m saying, because I’m not trying to jump on your case friend, I’ve had an A and dated while I was M or then later separated. It’s time you become a better *Man. A better man will look at his actions and want to improve himself, he wants to grow, he wants to right his wrongs, he will also take the short end of the stick if he deserves it. You do deserve the short end of the stick friend, and its possible if you show you have the ability to treat your W with grace and love eventhough you are getting the short end of the stick…well, it might go along way. I would look at this as an opportunity. Now, does this mean your W may go live with OM? I hope not, I’m sure you hope not, but realistically you can’t control that anyway right? You can’t go back and make different choices about those women you had A’s with, you wish you could but you cannot. What you can do now is be heroic in your own way TODAY. I’m sure others will say don’t take a chance on losing your W to OM, but in my experience and in my humble opinion if that’s going to be how this story plays out there’s nothing you or I can do about it. I know my summation sounds dreary but I also believe if your W is supposed to come back to you then she will. I’m not saying fate, but I’m saying you already know deep down inside if this is the end or not. I’ve got a feeling you know this is not the end of your M. I’ve got a feeling you might have to eat a little crow for a while, but your W has a thing for you that she can’t shake very easily. I’d focus on pleasing her as best I can, since you are the one who’s been hurting her, and I’d focus on bettering myself. My W now admits there were many times during our separation that she was wondering if I would take her back, one of the reasons it took so long for her to come back was she thought after all of my changes that I was *too good for her. Go figure, me who betrayed her and cut her to the core had changed so much that in her mind I had become too good for her????

Good luck Vnus, it aint over till we say it is and WE get to decide when we say it right?

Right!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DbleTrble

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

FM:

Thanks ALOT for that post you made me cry at work and now everyone is wondering what's up!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Actually, I had posted a message awhile back asking you to respond to me, because of the similarity of our situations, and the way that yours turned out being the way I hope mine does too.

So I'm glad you responded, and in such an honest and direct way.

YOU ARE RIGHT.
If I do the right thing, let her go, help her get on her own 2 feet and then LEAVE HER ALONE, I stand a much better chance of getting her back than when I was still being selfish and trying to manipulate her into returning.

In all honesty, this latest LB isn't THAT big of a deal, in the sense that it was a long time ago, it's just one more, and it wasn't a recent thing that would damage the credibility of how I have been Plan A since early September...meaning, I haven't had another A since I decided I want to work on my M. So she hasn't had much to get mad about except the past for a little while now.

So...I don't think it's the A that bothers her, it's the "one more lie" that kills her. In fact, she said very little about the OW (whom she had met once when "S" worked for me, before she moved away).
She didn't even say much on the subject of "why did you STILL lie when you said you told me everything??"
She pretty much rehashed the LB's, accusations, insults, and ultimatums that she has more than a few times. This was nothing new.

I really succeeded in giving her one more reason to feel justified in continuing down the path of total separation, and nothing more.

I should take some heart in that, and in the fact that the final phone call was much more "I'll always love you" than "I hate you."

If you can do it, so can I. This is why I wanted to talk to you, and why I'd like it if you could give me pointers from time to time.

Could you private message me your email, or would you like me to send you mine?

Thanks again, you helped me immensely. I'm going to copy this message and put in my stack of "MB" related reminders of how things should be.

Hold the course! I noticed your wife just signed up here. That is the tiny bit of hope you need right now. She *wants* to make it work, but she doesn't know how. She can't believe it can work. You need to be the one that is sure you can rebuild, that you can make your M even better than before.

Yes, the additional info is a huge blow to your BS, but people do recover. My FWS told me 3 months after d-day that he had had an A while we were engaged. I really did not have hope for us. But the kind people here at MB convinced me that *all* Ms deserve a chance.

Now for practical matters, responding to what she says she needs. Agree to everything, but don't actively help her. It sounds like she is in her own place, but wants to move? Maybe it's the memories? Can you switch places? You go back to your home and she take your apartment?

Interesting. If you really are a narcissist, I even have experience with that. I suspect my FWS is a narcissistic as well. I know everyone says you can't be in an intimate relationship with an N, but surprisingly I'm seeing changes in FWS. We still have problems with the way he sees the world, but I'm confronting him calmly and expressing my point of view. It can be tiring and I wonder how can I admire someone (of course, he needs lots of admiration) that I think is a bit off his rocker?

And then I look at the people around me. Now I suspect my sister is an N and that's why FWS feels familiar to me. What is the worst thing she's done? She hasn't talked to our brother for probably 20 years and now she's not talking to me. And how many families do you know like that? Lots, I'm sure.

I wonder sometimes if FIL is an N. This is a man who fell in love with MIL when they were teenagers. He went into the Air Force and they married as soon as he got out. They have 3 sons, 2 of which are recovering alcoholics (my FWS is one). He retired after 30 some years at the same job and provided very well for his family. He had an A a couple of years ago. That is the only one we know of, although FWS suspects there may have been others. He is very active in his Church and is considered the life of most parties.

Now, did he deserve a family, a wife of 40 years, 3 grandchildren and a great-grandchild? Maybe you would say no and I wouldn't be dealing with a possible N, but I'm not so sure what the right answer is.

Could you private message me your email, or would you like me to send you mine?

Sure friend, I can't check my home email from work though. The security settings here are pretty tight but I'll update this thread later with my MB email account, I think its Familymatters2@yahoo.com...but let me check later this evening.


Actually, I had posted a message awhile back asking you to respond to me, because of the similarity of our situations, and the way that yours turned out being the way I hope mine does too.


I never saw the thread or I definetly would have replied. I don’t know if you want your situation to turn out like mine, I actually hope yours turns out better. I wasted a lot of time, if you use the Harley principles and tailor them to your own situation you could save yourself a lot of heart ache. I mean look at it, didn’t your W already say that OM can’t provide all her EN’s? I know she didn’t use the term EN but I do remember reading something where she admitted OM isn’t so great right?

I really succeeded in giving her one more reason to feel justified in continuing down the path of total separation, and nothing more.


I know pretty much how you’re feeling. The way I see it your W is using this last bit of information to justify her bad actions. She’s probably been upset with you since you started Plan A, HECK you haven’t been giving her any reasons to justify having an A…so she had to use this old A to rationalize her R with OM. It’s going to take time and some dips in the rollercoaster but she will see how 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

Thanks again, you helped me immensely. I'm going to copy this message and put in my stack of "MB" related reminders of how things should be.


No problem friend, I hope my mistakes and victories can help. I see a lot of hope in your situation and mine for that matter, because I’m not out of the woods just yet. I have started to change my mindset though. Saving my M is in my rear view, up ahead I’m looking forward to becoming the type of man that only a crazy woman would divorce. Finally I’m beginning to see that success isn’t staying Married, success is being true to my convictions. I know that sounds a little sappy, but I had to stop basing my happiness on whether or not my wife defogged and got over OM or not. I was way too focused on controlling how her A turned out and not enough on how I turned out. Weird huh? But a lot of us BS’s are guilty of that….losing ourselves in the midst of trying to save our spouses from themselves…I think we all learn the truth whether we want to or not.

Hang in the V!

If I have to so do you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lbc:
<strong> Hold the course! I noticed your wife just signed up here. That is the tiny bit of hope you need right now. She *wants* to make it work, but she doesn't know how. She can't believe it can work. You need to be the one that is sure you can rebuild, that you can make your M even better than before.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? How would you know that? I don't get it.
Oh well...even if she did see all these posts...

I hope they make sense. I still worry that she thinks I'm having words put in my mouth, when actually, y'all are just confirming what my heart has already told me is right.
I actually was doing "Plan A" without even knowing it, before I even came to MB, and everytime I've posted a "what should I do?" request, I already knew the answer, and sometimes answered myself in the very same post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
But I was talking to her via TM last night before the LB dropped - and she accused me of not feeling remorse - and I told her that I was "sorry for everything and will cry for a long time while I work this out" and she responded... "cult speak."
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Since when did my true feelings become cult speak anyway??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lbc:
<strong>
Yes, the additional info is a huge blow to your BS, but people do recover. My FWS told me 3 months after d-day that he had had an A while we were engaged. I really did not have hope for us. But the kind people here at MB convinced me that *all* Ms deserve a chance.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's good news...I'll hold on to some shred of hope until I just can't hold on anymore. I feel like if she decides we're really THRU, that I will hold on to hope for years and years to come. I love her that much and want to be the H she always wanted SO badly. But even more so, I want to be a new MAN that doesn't do these things.
And even MORE THAN THAT, I want her to be happy again. She's been such a wreck, and I've only seen fleeting moments of happiness in her, and it kills me. She's such a wonderful person...I could beat myself senseless for what I've done to her....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lbc:
<strong>
Now for practical matters, responding to what she says she needs. Agree to everything, but don't actively help her. It sounds like she is in her own place, but wants to move? Maybe it's the memories? Can you switch places? You go back to your home and she take your apartment?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I plan on bending over as far backwards as I can for her. I'm somewhat limited in my funds and flexibility, but I will try.
I did think of switching places with her (not an actual 1 for 1, since I'm living in a room in a house with friends, but her getting her own place and me moving back in to the apt.) - it might be more expensive for both of us...but if it makes her better it would be worth it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lbc:
<strong>
Interesting. If you really are a narcissist, I even have experience with that. I suspect my FWS is a narcissistic as well. I know everyone says you can't be in an intimate relationship with an N, but surprisingly I'm seeing changes in FWS. We still have problems with the way he sees the world, but I'm confronting him calmly and expressing my point of view. It can be tiring and I wonder how can I admire someone (of course, he needs lots of admiration) that I think is a bit off his rocker?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, I'd rather not be one to begin with, or at least know how to control it to the degree that my need for attention is satisfied completely by my loving W and myself.
The biggest and best ego-booster of them all was her anyway...don't know why I let myself forget that fact.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by lbc:
[qb] Hold the course! I noticed your wife just signed up here. That is the tiny bit of hope you need right now. She *wants* to make it work, but she doesn't know how. She can't believe it can work. You need to be the one that is sure you can rebuild, that you can make your M even better than before.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? How would you know that? I don't get it.

Vns,
Your W is our newest member..
Welcome to our newest member: TheWifeofVnusmars

If you click on Marraige Builders Discussion Forum you'll see your W as the newest member.

Don't worry about it, you are seeking help and though she feels some of your words are dis-ingenuious she will see people do change, at least here we do. If she reads more threads than just yours she might even decide she likes this place a little, maybe even alot. She can't deny that once upon a time you loved her a great deal, maybe just maybe you're getting back to feeling that way. We are all human and we all make mistakes and the possibility of losing someone you love deep down will cause even a big screw up like me to re-think who they've become. Your W may doubt TODAY you've changed that's why you have to make permanent changes, long term life changes yah know, and not necessarily only for her, but she does become the primary beneficiary of the new Vns...get it? It's sort of like quitting smoking, I did for me, but my W and kids benefit greatly from my changes. Hang in there, it gets better believe me.

FM:

Is that true? I looked, and she's not the CURRENT newest member, but she may have joined before that person did.

I've wondered what it would be like if my W were 2 sign on2 MB and read my posts. For the most part, particularly in the past 2 years or so, I've tried my best 2 post only things I wouldn't be worried about her seeing, but the truth is that I have no control over posts 2 my threads that MIGHT say things like "I don't know why you haven't tossed this b**** 2 the curb a long time ago!". I don't think I've ever seen those exact words, but I have seen that tone in the past. In every case, I've come 2 her defense. mainly because, for whatever reason, the poster said what they said as a result of what I posted. So, I do consider them, even if they're not "net positive" when I read them.

If your W is a new member, I'd love 2 be one of the first 2 welcome her here!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think these new revelations, the "2nd d-day" AND the fact that your M started out as an A (I didn't know this, was this in a previous thread, or did you just admit it recently?) just may make reconciliation difficult or even impossible. But that is a matter for you and your W 2 decide. NOBODY else can. ESPECIALLY a professional. I still stand by what I said about her IC's recent remarks that sounded like bordering on conflict of interest.

In the end, though, the truth will be your salvation, if anything will. I think that your W, if she were 2 read your threads, would at least have the oppor2nity 2 "evaluate" your sincerety more objectively, because your posting your story 2 US is strictly voluntary self-help stuff.

Stay honest. Stay consistent. Your M may or may not be salvageable. But you, as an individual, must be.

-ol' 2long.

Yes she was the newest member when I looked. But she had not posted yet, I checked.

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
But I was talking to her via TM last night before the LB dropped - and she accused me of not feeling remorse - and I told her that I was "sorry for everything and will cry for a long time while I work this out" and she responded... "cult speak."
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Since when did my true feelings become cult speak anyway??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, WS' and BS' say and do alot of things after d-day that we don't believe a few months down the line. Stay strong! This really is a rollercoaster that you've decided to jump on. When the A ends, that is just the beginning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I plan on bending over as far backwards as I can for her. I'm somewhat limited in my funds and flexibility, but I will try.
I did think of switching places with her (not an actual 1 for 1, since I'm living in a room in a house with friends, but her getting her own place and me moving back in to the apt.) - it might be more expensive for both of us...but if it makes her better it would be worth it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I thought you had stayed in your apartment. I actually asked WS to leave a month before the A ended. He didn't want to leave our home and we really didn't have the money to rent out an apartment for him.

Hmmm...maybe this is where the Plan A modification in your case is recommended. The BS' instinct is to throw out the WS, but we advise the BS keep the WS close at hand for Plan A to be most effective. But I can see that a WS needs to do as much as she/he can to make amends to the BS.

I can't remember, are you in IC?