VM:

"I know she's eating cake - but I'm also getting to eat some cake when I get to be with her and feel what is her genuine love for me."

Bull feathers. "Getting 2 spend time" with your own wife is your responsibility as a married man, it is not cake-eating.

"And she does say that her R with OM has nothing to do with us,"

It doesn't. But it's not a relationship, it's an AFFAIR. Relationships are real. Affairs are fantasies. Big difference. 2 paraphrase what SKM (a FWW) once said, your W and the OM are not friends. They're not even lovers. They're not even former lovers or friends. If anything, they're co-conspiritors in the destruction of your marriage. SKM is a very smart FWW.

"has nothing to do with our future together or apart,"

Same reply.

"and she seems to truly believe that because rarely does he come up in conversation directly. She certainly doesn't throw him in my face; in fact, she takes great pains to keep him silent."

I'm pic2ring a guy bound and gagged in the corner of a dark room... ...I think I like that vision!

"She doesn't waffle and say "I love him and want to be with him" one day and cry about wanting me back the next the way some WS's here seem to do."

Hm... I thought she's done this.

"Yes, I think there is a degree of spite there - unapologetic pursual by her of something and someone other than me because of the damage I've done, a fear of dumping him because I may take it as a sign she wants me back, etc."

Sooner or later, she's going 2 have 2 take a risk. Nothing ven2red, nothing gained. In the meantime, while she's on this path of self-destructive affair behavior, plenty is getting lost.

"And he validates her,"

Nobel Prize candidate? Probably not. Any idiot can and will do this for an easy conquest.

"makes her feel wanted and beautiful..."

Same reply.

"but even by her own admission he's pretty immature and highly flawed, they argue all the time, and she is plagued by thoughts of me when they are together."

One can only hope that her own screaming in2 her own ear here will help wake her up 2 the sheer idiocy of keeping this affair alive.

"And when we are together, she points out how much more mature I am, how much better I satisfy her emotional needs, and how much we have in common..."

Same reply.

"I honestly think her feelings for him are a smaller part of why she's with him, outside of my infidelities I know she still sees me as the better man."

Same reply.

"I don't want to see her as weak, but in a way I do."

She *IS* weak. We all are 2 some degree. Well, maybe we're all *vulnerable* - is a better way 2 put it. I think Steve Harley was the one that said "people don't have affairs because of unmet needs, they have affairs because of weaknesses" - they don't take enough precautions 2 protect their own marriages (meaning themselves or their spouse) from infidelity.

"What happened to the W I knew that didn't take crap from anyone, didn't need anyone, could do everything on her own?"

She's still there, but her behavior shows she has a mistaken view of what "individuality" is all about. Particularly how 2 be an individual in a committed relationship.

"She seems to be using OM as a crutch to get through this time."

Well, at least she admits she's using him. How does she feel about being manipulative and controlling?

"And there is STILL SOMETHING THERE that she's not telling me, I can feel it."

Maybe. But you can make yourself crazy worrying about it.

-ol' 2long

What was your time frame for Plan A again? If you go the way you are right now through your entire Plan A, you will be a total basket case by the time it is over.

Detach, detach, detach...

And stop blaming yourself for her affair! You did wrong but you aren't now. YOU are the victim here, not her! Don't kid yourself into thinking you deserve this, and it is justified.

While I do empathize with your WW because I have been in her shoes (minus my own affair), I do not like what she is doing right now. She is being manipulative, she is cheating, she is violating your vows and she is HURTING another human being. That is not ok Vnus, even if it was done to her.

Now how long are you planning on sharing her with another man? She gets to sleep with one or the other, not both. If is not healthy for anyone, and it will destroy you. Plan A does not mean allowing someone to disrespect you, or to destroy you. It does however allow you time to learn, to grow and to gain perspective on what went wrong with both you, and with your marriage.

2long...thanks again.
You're right.

She's making justifications, rationalizations, holding on to a ghost, and when I press her for answers or reasons, she can only respond with:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Silence or avoidance of the subject of OM - most common</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Throwing my A's back in my face, talking about how much I ruined our M and have no right to care about OM, and avoidance of the subject of OM - also common</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Complaint about him: "he is immature," "he has lots of flaws," "we fight alot," "he isn't as good with SF as you" - etc.etc. - less common</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I know what I'm doing" - "I care for him" - "I don't know where it's headed but I might be with him" - less common</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Notice that the LEAST common thing for her to say is anything similar to what most BS's on this board hear from their WS's, that OP is a godsend, THE ONE, perfect, wonderful, flawless, etc.etc.

I guess I shouldn't be amazed at one's capacity to lie to oneself. I did it for a long time with my A's, I should expect no less from her.


At the end of the day, what she's doing with OM is entirely her business and the relative sanity/insanity of it is out of my control.

I can only hope that the presence of that A doesn't deplete my love bank and turn me away from her. I would hate for her to be ready to reconcile and find that I no longer am in love with her because I had to protect myself from pain.

I like being with her, talking to her, having deep discussions with her now that we're both trying to heal and need to talk things through...but I hope it can last.

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

"Notice that the LEAST common thing for her to say is anything similar to what most BS's on this board hear from their WS's, that OP is a godsend, THE ONE, perfect, wonderful, flawless, etc.etc."

Big deal, frankly. My W and RM apparently never said ILY 2 one another, and yet the A lasted for 12 YEARS.

So OM's a boy toy. She's hurting HERSELF by keeping this up, because it's by our consistency of behavior that our loved ones get 2 know who we really are. ...and make their choices accordingly.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Weaver/2Long:

Ultimately what she's doing with OM boils down to this:

"How can I be damaging a M and betraying vows if I don't want to keep them anymore?"

To her, the vows themselves, the legal and social bond of MARRIAGE that ties us together is a moot point since the emotional bond has been severed, or at least seriously injured.

So as far as she's concerned, she's not violating any vows since I destroyed them "first."

She thinks she has no marriage to violate or cheat, because marriage is more about emotion than legalities and social status.

No, OM is not her ideal mate. But he's there, and he gives her SOMETHING that she thinks she needs. Whether it's that she craves attention out of weakness or insecurity or is trying to mold him to her liking in to the perfect mate is unknown...perhaps just as much to her as it is to me.

In a way, I do trust her to do what she thinks she needs to do, and I have enough faith in her and myself to think the outcome will eventually land in my favor.
She says OM has nothing to do with me, and I can understand that to a degree.

I'm jealous and sad about him because I want to be with her myself and she prefers him over me right now. Otherwise, I would be able to detach and not care.

As long as she is with him and we are in regular contact, I am going to go up and down the rollercoaster.
I just hope that my psyche doesn't try to force me into not caring. But as a self-defense mechanism, that may very well happen. It's already started.

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

"Ultimately what she's doing with OM boils down to this:

"How can I be damaging a M and betraying vows if I don't want to keep them anymore?"

To her, the vows themselves, the legal and social bond of MARRIAGE that ties us together is a moot point since the emotional bond has been severed, or at least seriously injured."

Remember the clause "for better or for worse"? This is one of them "worses." And her argument is rationalization 2 justify bad behavior. Nothing else. Period. End of Discussion... ...when is 2long going 2 finish this sentence!?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-ol' 2long

boink:

VM, you out there?