I really feel for you, K. (We are in the same age range with pretty long marriages.)

I have been where you are and it didn't feel good at all.

I would suspect that he has that other cell phone again and that he also leaves that one in his car at night. I don't buy the excuse about wanting to avoid work calls at night. Did you know that was a problem pre-A? Is his current behavior consistent with his pre-A behavior regarding how he handles his cell phone and his car privacy?

I just don't think he should be entitled to all this being swept under the rug. I know it's pretty early in what he is wanting you to believe is recovery.

I know that, for example, Bob Pure has been giving his FWW lots of time to go through withdrawal without discussing very much of what needs to be gone through for him to recover and deal with her A. I am afraid as time goes on she will also expect that she can just have it behind her and they can go on as if pre-A. He has stated that isn't going to happen.

Can SH be of some help. Is he at all open to counseling or any active steps to really have a better marriage?

We always hear that when we approach our spouses we shouldn't use you statements but instead tell them how we are feeling about things. I have a hard time wording things without at some point saying a bunch of you's in there.

We did an Imago Therapy weekend (Based on Harville Hendrix's: Getting the Love You Want) where you learn to use a form of active listening. You feed back what the other says and then ask if you got everything and is there anything more to that?
My H used to always say that I didn't listen to him...OW was a good listener. We tried to use that technique with some difficult topics. Although it was painful, it was also helpful at the time.

I listened to all the wonderful stuff about OW too. I would think that if your H's OW was so similar to you then it should be no brainer that your marriage and family is worth preserving since you both have so much invested already. I know they always expect the fantasy to be real.

Yes, A's can be a big wake up call that we let our marriages get to a very vulnerable state and we had lost sight of the value of bounderies.

Your H will have to take responsibility for his part if he hasn't already. I hope he gets there.

I hate being in the place where you suspect resumed inappropriate contact. They may convince themselves that they can go back to just being secret friends...an EA and what you don't know won't hurt you. Thus the erasing phone calls etc.
If true, it is all unacceptable.

The lack of real NC may have to be the deal breaker for you. What is more important to him, his job or his marriage? I would think that exposure at work may help. I assume a gov. job, would have an employee handbook or code of conduct stating the consequences for this kind of behavior? How about a transfer to another location all together for either of them?

Anyway, I do understand you may not be wanting to cut off your foot to spite your face. He may have lots retirement years to consider. But, I don't think that you need to keep to any agreement not to expose at work...if you did, you may have just given them the refuge they needed to continue. But then again you are back on the unknown zone again.

I want to believe, as I am sure you do also, that a big part of your WH really does want the A to be over. A 3 yr. A is a tough addiction to break, especially without NC.

I just reread most your posts from a few days ago.

It sounded as though your H had been purposely focusing on sentimental things (like music/songs he played on the piano) that reminded him of his A partner. Then he'd try to change the focus to you. Then back again. It kind of sounds like he was giving himself justification as to why he still needs OW in his life...kind of a flip flop in his mind. Maybe he has already gotten back into with her, but maybe not. It sure seems like he has with what you've said here.

In my H's longest A it did take him moving in with her to finally have the full impact of the reality of his choices realized. Maybe I've told you this before. Being in the apartment wasn't enough...that just kept their fantasy going. I believe he got quite a big charge from the exciting, secret, illicit part of the A. As much as he could sustain that feeling the addiction would continue.

Can you two get away for a vacation together?

Maybe you should be still trying to just plan A...or some of the 180, still working on attracting him back into seeing a you that he will have to keep remembering that he loves more than. If he doesn't that he just may lose you to someone else that will see the value in you that he has taken for granted. He still seems in such a poor me fragile place.

I am not saying you shouldn't have your conversation with him..but I agree you will need to choose your words carefully.

Hi Trix....

WH takes the responsibility for "hurting everyone around him". But he always ends up saying something about how this is all killing OW.

Makes me feel like my feelings matter least to him.

Early after D-Day, after we came out of MC session, I told WH that I loved him. That he could talk to me about anything. That's the first time he talked to me about OW.

How wonderful she is. How good she is to him. How much she loves him. Then he said "I guess everyone who loves me loves me a lot". We laughed.

WH does not want to talk to anyone...known or unknown to him. He doesn't BELIEVE in MC.

One thing that sticks in my mind is when WH called saying he was moving home for my BD present.

He said he wanted to be a passionate and loving H with me. That he's "learned how to be that in....
well, anyway, I learned how to be that". He certainly stopped himself before he said - in the past 3 years with OW. I KNOW that is what he was going to say!

How I do ramble on! He's said so many things, and contradicted himself in the very same sentence. I think he's confused.

The cell phones are a real issue for me. And the fact that there is no REAL proof of his letter to OW, or him giving he cell phones back.

I'm in so much turmoil with all this. I don't want to start a fight. I don't want to sound preachy or know it all to WH. But I don't want to keep silent either.

Still searching for the right words.

Pray for me....that I have the "right words" to say to WH.

K

I think I'm the one that rambles.

Will pray for you.

Doubt your H has really ended it...the 'right' signs just don't seem to be there. He should be willing to do just about anything to make it right. But then, I suppose other's experiences may differ from my own.

He hasn't totally given up the apartment yet? Was his lease up? Did he have to be out by a certain date? Was the stress of maintaining two places becoming to much for him? Is it still available to him? You said if he moved back out he'd be moving in with OW. Were those his only two choices: move home or in with OW?

Do you want him home if he is still fence sitting? How much are you willing to live with during his 'withdrawal'?

You may want to appear to be moving on.

Trix is right, the signs are not there.

He SHOULD be willing to do just about anything.

Right know, your choices seem to be accepting him like he is, or waiting until he starts to get it.

You can still use the materials about trust even if he doesn't read the whole thing. Especially the part about the lottery, and paycheck.

When a trust issue comes up, or he balks at your boundries, ask him to do an experiment for you. ASk him to go to his boss, and get his pay for the next year's worth of work. Tell him, "just promise your boss you will actually do the work, and ask him if he will pay you up front."

You don't even have to let him respond - just go on.
" That's how it is with us. When I ask you to do the bare minimum that reconcillation requires, you say I am making demands. Kind of like your boss requiring you to work before you get paid - I am asking you to do the work first, to show you are serious. It sounds to me like you are all talk, and no work."


I bet he would undestand that comparision. It may be that you can use this or something similar in conversation with him. Practice saying it and work in some of the things he says back to you on his side as you pretend, It would help to deliver it later.

Meanwhile, you sound really good all things considered. Are you doing as well as you sound?

SS

Dear K,

how about coming over here for a visit??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now. Really seems very confusing and scary...........gosh, even though I don't know you personally, I am more than sure that you don't deserve this. (wel no one does..........)

Have you been able to talk with Steve H again???
What did he tell you? Did he have a plan for you??? Did he say Plan A or what????

How does you husband react when you talk with him?? Is he distant? Can you talk about feelings at all with him?
Is it possible to talk about future plans and his and your dreams for the future??

I'm sorry for asking so much but it helps me to get a clearer pic. of your situation.

Do you show your "real emotions" to him at all?? I mean when you are feeling pain, do you cry? If you do cry in front of him, does he react???

What is your gut telling you right now??? Do you feel that he is still in contact with OW???

It's late here now, so I'm going to bed. Nighty, nite! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

bb

Hi Trix, SS, and bb...

All things considered, I feel I am doing pretty well. Aside from feeling insecure about everything relating to our M, I am okay.

WH has already signed off on his apartment. It's paid up until the end of this month. So, I suppose he could go there for a couple of weeks. Other than that, I really don't know where he would feel he could go besides OW's place.

He doesn't like when I show any emotions. I'm in Plan A, so weeping is not allowed. Don't want to appear weak.

WH just called, and will be home in a couple of hours. We are supposed to go get something to eat.

He pretty much doesn't want to talk about ANYTHING. Like I said before, he's contradicted himself so much....like unfulfilled promises. If he says he's going to call, he usually doesn't. That kind of thing.

The things he wrote and said he would do for me and our M haven't been done. Steve Harley said we should make a clear plan for recovery.

Going to the MB seminar in Nov. up here would help. It should be presented like we are gathering info to help us build a great marriage. I haven't talked to WH about this yet.

I was reading Wakingup's post for WH, etc. I would really like for my WH to read that. I think it would help him see that others are feeling and going thru the same things he is.

My gut feeling is that he is in contact with OW. It IS a deal breaker for me. I have told him that. He used to be such a strong willed man. Now he kind of seems weak and pathetic over this.

I think if I had not found out about the A (when WH gave me an STD), that he would still be doing the same thing he was this time last year.

Keep praying for me......I will surely need it.

And thanks for the invite, bb. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm THERE (but only in my mind).

K