GG:

"I decided that Plan A looked blissful and Plan B looked lonely, so I stayed home last night. She cooked me a good dinner (the first in a long time )and then we went to bed (she was warm and snuggly.) I woke up at 4:00 AM to find WW out of bed and back on the phone with OM"

She felt like she won a round, so she was happy and grateful (dinner, snuggling), and continued with her "friendship".

This HURTS. You need 2 decide whether 2 keep working with her (by staying home) on this or going elsewhere (plan B or remote plan A). Read DLee's story on "in recovery", in particular Cerri's post yes2rday about pain. You need 2 decide whether you can deal with the pain while you plan A, or whether getting away from it for a while is right for you.

"I've got an appt this afternoon with a female counselor who I hope can help me understand better how to really meet these needs of my W that I seem to be unable to grasp."

Interview her before you commit 2 long-term counseling. I think the Harleys still have some guidelines on what kinds of 2uestions 2 ask of her. Also, Penny Tupy (Cerri) has a great article about the differences between coaching and counseling on her website at www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com . And finallly, Spacecase (former MBer) posted a GREAT transcript of a seminar about marital therapy that I found VERY enlightening. It's on www.iloveulove.com at:

http://iloveulove.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=7546002961&f=2926033071&m=6566078992

-ol' 2long

GG-
I am so sorry for your pain. Perhaps it is time to go to Plan B because I cannot believe your W would get up out of bed and talk to her OM. That is just totally disrespectful of you.
Please get some counseling.

GG,
Why is that well meaning people always want to tell folks to stay in plan A as long as they can stand it. When Harley wrote the book, a rational person would deduce that he didn’t expect to be taken literally in every situation. He simply out lined in broad strokes a philosophy that in general, described his feelings. Plan A is not meant to be a forever solution to any problem. It is a short-term strategy that is designed to help end the affair of the WS and as such requires flexible adjustments in its implementation just as any planned strategy would.

Sorry but it drives me crazy when people encourage others to stay the Plan A course as long as possible, no matter how improbable it’s success can be expected. The idea is to stay the course as long as possible OR as long as it appears that the strategy has some chance of being for nothing more then wishful thinking.

GG, you have already had proof that your WW is going to be affected by the reality of Plan B. You left and she has contacted you over 3 times, each time trying to get you home where she wants you to be. Of course she wants you to be there while she gets to have her EA with the OM! That is, while having her cake and eating it too. So what does this tell you?

What it should be saying is that saving one’s marriage requires that a person recognize that changes must take place to create cause and effect. In short, the BS must take a chance that the WS will break out of the fog when confronted with the reality that there are truly going to be consequences to their actions; not implied consequence but reactions that have the definite element of life changing finality. Plan A to shows the WS who you are and how good the marriage can really be. Once this is achieved Plan A is no longer a viable strategy. Its mission has been accomplished and it’s time for part two of the plan; which is Plan B.

You have obviously done an adequate Plan A. If you hadn’t your WW wouldn’t give a fig about your absence from the home. Now it’s time to buck up and see the battle through to the end. You simply must decide at what price the status quo becomes too emotionally expensive. If you can live with your WW enjoying her affair as part of your marriage then by all means move back home. But do not expect her to give up her affair with the OM because of prolonged Plan A. Why should she?

Sorry GG, in my opinion you are crossing over the now. You’ve gone from fighting for your marriage to capitulation based on your being in a state of denial.

One last thought. Call Harley and ask him for his advice. If he runs true to form, he will not council you and your WW while she is still in contact with the OM. He will help you to find ways to end the affair. He will even speak with her about the wisdom or lack there of, of her continuing down her current path. But I doubt he will provide marriage counseling to the two of you. That’s how important he seems to feel no contact is to reconciliation. The affair has to end before counseling can be effective.
Coach.

Coach 3530:

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!. you have just stated (much more eloquently than I ever could) how I feel about much of what goes on around here in Plan A. It is frightneing that you will have A LOT of people who MISAPPLY PLan A and will give severely misguided advice on staing on Plan A "as long as you can stand it". I get a bad rap around here b/c I am one of the few who will post this. Thanks for at least letting me know that I am not the only "crazy one" on here.

coach, LM:

Sorry, but I beg 2 differ here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

♣ GG has been in "plan A" for 2 months?

♣ GG came 2 MB for the first time less than a month ago?

♣ GG has yet 2 speak 2 a professional?

Frankly, he is NOT IN ANY DANGER, just subjected 2 emotional pain. I don't mean 2 trivialize that, but before we go advising he jump 2 plan B, he needs 2 get with a professional who can advise him how 2 do it. *I* think it's "misguided" for any of us 2 advise him 2 go 2 plan B without giving him a chance 2 even learn the full ramifications of making that decision.

GG, are you aware that one of the possible outcomes of plan B is that your W won't want 2 rebuild and you will end up divorced?

I think that, if GG is 2 go 2 plan B, his W should move out, not him.

Coach, you may find it rather surprising that during my one session with SH, over 7 months after d-day, he asked me "so it's only been this year that you discovered your W's A?" and that he advised nothing like plan B at that point? And Penny hasn't advised plan B either, though I started coaching with her over 2 years after d-day?

I think gg needs 2 speak 2 a professional, and I think it should be either SH, JHC, or Penny - someone familiar and fluent with the plans. He needs some more experience and a bit of an education. THEN, he should decide.

In the meantime, I'd keep putting a damper on the "friendship" by getting/giving regular updates with the OMW, exposing more, whatever is necessary.

GG isn't ready for plan B.

-ol' 2long

Georgia Guy - let me first offer you a "manly" hug. I understand the turmoil going on in your mind and how hard it seems to separate "fact from fiction" and to know what advice will "help or hinder" recovering your marriage.

I am going to have to take some time to think and pray about what to say to you, so for now I'll just limit myself to a few brief commments.

1. I have to go back and search to see if you've posted a synopsis of the "trip."

2. You are NOT in recovery. The affair is still ongoing.

3. Plan A is NOT about recovery. Granted, there are parts of Plan A behavior that carry over into recovery, but the PURPOSE of Plan A, or Plan B, is to bring an end to the affair so that recovery CAN begin and have a chance at success. As long as there IS an ongoing affair, the marriage is already essentially over and there can be no recovery.

4. I'm wondering if your children know about "Mom's" affair? What would be, or is if they already know, their response?

5. Your wife is addicted. That is why she can fix you a nice dinner, snuggle, and tell you that she loves you....and then go back for another "fix."

6. Understanding WHAT Emotional Needs are, how they are "ranked" by each of you, and how well or poorly you have each met each other's EN's is a STARTING POINT. It is hard to correct something if you don't know what's wrong.

7. Since you are both professing Christians (as was my wife and I during her 6 year EA/PA, we've been married for 29 years now) what either of you "wants" is essentially irrelevant. As a Christian, God is sovereign over your lives. He "bought and paid" for you both with His blood. As your sovereign, God has the "right" to tell each of you what to do and each of you should simple DO what God says whether or not you "feel like it."

8. I sincerely hope that the counselor you are planning to see is a committed Christian who is trained in Marriage Counseling for Christians.

GG, if you would like a copy of a couple of pamphelts that you might find extremely helpful I will email them to you.

The first is called "Marriage. Whose Dream?" and the the second is called "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour?"

If you'd like them, drop me an email at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com

GG, there is much hope. But I also don't want to give you "false hope" that this will be "solved" quickly. It most likely will take a lot of time and you will be on the "rollercoaster" for some time. But begin with yourself and your own walk with Christ and being the "best husband that you can be."

Also, if you'd like to search for very good counselors in your area, let me give you a link to a terrific organization for Christian counseling.

National Association of Nouthetic Counselors

One last "opinion" for now. As hard as it is emotionallly right now, your place is at home. The "exception" would be "time apart" for prayer and fasting, and then coming back together again.

I'll be back with more later.

May God shower you with His patience and love and give you His strength, wisdom, and endurance during this time of trial and teaching.

(((((Georgia Guy)))))

God bless.

Plan A or Plan B. As I understand them Plan A is period when you work on yourself and have contact with the WS to show the WS love. For you personally the Plan A period allows you time to grow yourself to the point you are okay with yourself after DD. For the WS it allows them to see the side of you they fell in love with. At some point this effort to “show” love and not get behavior you expect becomes a LB. Every time you do something good, you feel a drop in your personal love bank. When this begins to happen you should consider a Plan B to protect what love you do have.

So my questions are; has your plan A become a negative love experience? Do you feel less love for your WS today than you did last month? So at the point your self esteem allows you’re the felling you can be on your own and you need to protect your LB, it is time for Plan B. Since there are no kids at home, it should not matter if you move out of she does, but by her moving out she would get a stronger experience of what she is giving up.

One thing that worked for me during a less intense internet EA was to start chatting on-line myself. Within a week of having a few regular people I chatted with she slowed and finally stopped chatting. Sometimes I think the fog is so thick that the WS can not see the harm they are doing. Good Luck GG.

GG:

Star posted an excellent, concise definition of what plan A is and is not on the Lemonman thread here on GQII 2day.

Check it out! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

I am a STRONG advocate for Plan B. I'm usually one of the first folks to advise people to "move to Plan B". I am AMAZED at some of the situations where I thought a move to Plan B was obvious, and they counseled with one of hte Harley's and they tell them "stay in Plan A longer".

The message I get is that the Harley's like to see foilks stay in Plan A as long as they can. Now, no one can speak for the Harley's, least of all me.

But I view Plan A a little differently than most (and differently than the way Coach and Lemonman are interpreting it). What usually gets a M into trouble is the lack of attention, time, respect, and other ENs not being met. Plan A is a move to begin to fulfill those needs. Much of what is learned in Plan A should continue throughout the M. Are you telling me if there's not an A then EN fulfillment should end?

I beleive people should go out of their way to fulfill each other's needs. If your needs are not being met by your WS then you do it as long as you can, until you begin to lose love for them. Some people can do it for awhile (years), some can do it for only a short time (weeks). Plan A is just as much for the BS as the WS, to learn the skills they will need for a better M, and to show the WS the best person they can (this will stick in their mind (what did I give up?))

Can a person become a doormat in Plan A? I suppose, if they are continuing it too long and enabling the A. (Not letting the WS know how much their actions hurt.)

But continually advising folks to move to Plan B, Plan A is a doormat status, is advising people to give up, stop working on making the best "me" within a M, enabling a person to blame only the WS and not take any of hte blame themselves.

I understand the hard-line, the hurt, not wanting to allow this to happen again. There are many folks who after an A would never think of continuing an R with a person...that's OK, that's their perogative, and I wouldn't blame them. But the folks on here want to give their M a try, the Harley's have laid out some very good ideas, and telling people they are wrong for what they are doing, is not helping...

GG am most especially 2long:
Please read that last paragraph in my post. I not only suggested that he seek professional advice. I suggested that he go directly to the source. To the man that helped save my marriage and to the man who wrote the book we all choose to interpret here. I advised him to call Harley and I still think that would be best.

I believe that for him to just continue doing what he’s doing puts him on the road the nowhere. This is a problem for a professional. If I was not clear in making that point, let me correct myself now. If it were I, I would call Harley and not waste any time in doing it.
Coach

agree <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can't begin to tell each of you how much your input means to me. I'm definitely at a cross-roads right now as to whether to continue A or go to B.

This will be short as I'm at work. I'll re-read (over and over) the response from each of you later and digest more.

Update on the Friday counselor session. She really did a great job of getting right to the bottom line quickly and ended up telling me that my staying / not staying is dependent on how much I can take. She said I'll know the right time to leave. Not much new advice, but nice to have a listening ear.

The person I am relying on for spiritual advice has been of great benefit. One of the things he has said that has meant the most to me is that if I leave, I want no doubt in my own mind that I did everything I could to save my marriage. I want to be sure when I walk out that door (after 28 years), that I am truly prepared to move on with life if that is how it is to go.

Our oldest son (24 and M) knows about this. He is extremely wise (maybe more than GG!), and feels that his Mom is in need of help. He calls often and never fails to tell her that he loves her. (She cries).

More later (maybe today), but for now the latest update is that this morning when I got up at 6:00 AM, WW was STILL talking to OM.

Please, please...keep posting, especially you folks who have been there.

GG-

I can tell that you are committed to this marriage, but the issue is that WW doesn't seem to be. She is addicted (and I know what I'm talking about). Otherwise she wouldn't call him when you are in the other room. She obviously doesn't care about your feelings either- she's just throwing it in your face.

Sometimes you don't know what you have until it's gone. Go to Plan B and see how that makes her feel.

WW has openly told me that she has no desire to work on our M. In her eyes, the future of our M depends on me and me alone. She continues to tell me that her "friend" is not my competition and that he is actually "helping" her.

Last night our youngest son and his W came to visit. They left about 11:30 PM, and when they left I sat down and cried. I could see in them as they left (with their dog) to go back home (about 1 hour from here) how much they looked like WW and I 27 years ago. They were so happy, couldn't wait to get home and just be together.

WW asked me what was wrong and I told her. I reminded her how we once traveled 14 hours, just she and I (and our dog) to go visit family, but we couldn't wait to leave so we could enjoy that drive home together and get back to our house. I told her that seems so foreign to what we have now.

She replied that she feels we spend more time together now than ever, and we talk more openly now than ever. She says our only problem is in my "perception" of the situation and that we fight so much. Other than that, eveything is fine.

We went to bed (together) at about 12:30. When my alarm went off at 6:00, she is up and talking to OM. Appears as though she had been up a long time.....

BTW - WW is really upset, as is OM, that I have openly said (and very calmly, I might point out), that I don't think OM+OMW should move here. This is the dream of her and OM, that they live here in our town and we're all one big, happy group.

Apparently OMW is now much more vocal opposing this whole thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> now that she and I talked. This is causing some major problems between OM + OMW.

GG,

I think you need to understand something about plan B. It is NOT the end of your marriage. harley proposes this approach because until the affair ends there is NOTHING you can do. You can eliminate LB's, you can try to meet her needs but if she is not responding to this, then Plan B is where you should be AFTER a good plan A.

The point of plan B is to preserve the love you have and here is the point you need to think about. Your friend/clergyman??? is right, if you leave the marriage you want to know you did ALL you could do. Plan B is part of AlL you can do, and it entails giving the A a chance to die. You see if the A dies but your love for you W has died, there is little chance of recovery. Recovery is often actually harder than dealing with what you are dealing with, because now you don't have the OM to focus on, you are now dealing with the REAL W and many questions are brought to the surface. If you have lost your love for her, the answer is often to go.

So Harley suggests that preserving your love is critical to saving the marriage. Plan B is NOT about her, it is about YOU. It often does put the marriage in a new perspective when you are not present for her to talk to, but the real purpose is to prolong your ability to recover from this.

You cannot change your W, and you cannot pierce the fog that says it would be great to have OM and OM'sW living next door. You just have to hold on, and plan B is better than waking up every morning to your W talking to her OM. He is helping alright, right out of your marriage. You know it, and so does she, but she will not admit it.

So it is decision time. The first decision is when to reevaluate your plan A. If you have done a good one or as good as you can do, then are you seeing any progress? Is WS still in contact with OP? Is the affair winding down or is it still going strong? How much longer should I go? A clue here is that when you start to feel the need to LB a lot or you know you are feeling less love for her, it is time for plan B.

GG this is a process and it is set out for a good reason, but plan B is not the same as a divorce, but it can end up there, but that will be more her choice than yours.

Just some ideas.

God Bless,

JL

GG-

Is your W suggesting a open marriage? If he moves closer is she going to divide her time between you and the OM?? Just asking some questions.

My heart ached for you in reading about your crying last night after your son's visit. In our talk last week, Om and I were talking about how if our R came out how it would affect our children- they are much younger than yours. OM says that even though we are both guilty that society will reflect differently on me. I think he's right- I mean for the man it's like way to go and for the woman it's like- you slut in some ways. Just thinking of my kids having to overhear some gossip at school was enough to scare me straight.

Did you W ask you to work on your M for years and you just didn't??

GG - Seven quick points.

1. How about an update on what transpired on the trip?

2. Have you considered installing a stealth Keystroke logging program on her computer? It sounds to me like you dealing with a severe knowledge deficit of what REALLY is being said to "help your marriage."

3. You and the OM's wife might want to consider a regular "sharing and comparing" on things.

4. JL is correct, there can be no recovery and very little of what you can do will "register" or "score any points" as long she is in contact with the OM. This "addiction" makes anything that you do of temporary value at best. The focus needs to remain on ENDING the affair and establishing No Contact for the rest of her life.

5. What part is Christ playing in your wife's life? I suspect that she is resistant to attending church. Are you members of a good, solid, bible believing church? I guess what I'm asking is just how important is Jesus Christ to your wife, or was He before she got ensnared in adultery?

6. What, specifically, are YOU supposed to be changing in order to "work on your marriage" and "give her a reason to remain in a committed relationship with you?" In other words, what excuses and "blame game" things is she using to "justify" her violation of the marriage covenant?

7. If you find that you'd like the pamphlets I mentioned in an earlier post, drop me an email and I'll send them to you.

(((((Georgia Guy)))))

God bless and strengthen you in this time of need.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

triplicate post.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Okay, more of an exhaustive update from me:

The trip to visit OM + OMW was strained. OM tells me that he loves my W but wants what’s best for her which is to remain with her H. OM + OMW got into quite a fight while we were there and OMW told my W to “just take him”. OM says he doesn’t love his W but he doesn’t want to leave her.

I had been told that OMW was okay with this whole thing, but I was able to spend a few minutes with her (alone) and she told me that she wasn’t comfortable with the “friendship”. She said she did not think it was a good idea that they move here, but she didn’t know how to stop H from coming here (in 7 months, when he finishes school which he starts next week).

I openly told WW, OM, and OMW that I didn’t think moving here was a good idea. Now I’m being villiafied by WW + OM because I can’t “accept his friendship”.

cmesmile – I don’t think WW is recommending an “open marriage” in the terms you are thinking. In her mind, we can all just live together in harmony and be “pals”.

Foreverhers – They don’t IM, they talk. Spyware is of no use. Also, we are still regulars in our solid, Bible-believing church, even though WW admits that her relationship with God is extremely poor right now.

Now, for my current frame of mind and Plan A / B.

WW says that I need to be learning to meet her emotional needs. She tells me that I don’t reveal myself to her, and that I don’t understand her like OM does. Interesting point: while on trip, OM told WW that I treat her like a queen and asked why she doesn’t see that I love her. WW tells me that I have never loved her and marrying me was a big mistake...blah, blah....you get the picture.

Taking advice of JL and others, I’m feeling Plan B may be near. I need to go back and re-read the Plan B stuff. I am beginning to feel that I have lost the desire to Plan A any longer. I don’t have anger, I don’t want to LB, but I’m getting to where I just kind of go through the day without much hope of things being any better. I try not to think about it.

Add to that a possible new development. My #1 son has basically broken off contact with me. He e-mailed me yesterday morning and asked about the trip (which WW told him about). I e-mailed back that I had rather discuss that verbally and asked that he call. He didn’t call. I’ve called him twice and left messages for him to call, but he hasn’t. He has ALWAYS called me within minutes if I’ve left him a cell voice message. Also, he and his W were in town this past weekend but we didn’t hear anything from them at all. First time this has ever happened.

If this whole EA is causing me to lose my kids, the time for Plan B will be now as I will not allow WW and OM to destroy my relationship with my grown kids.

There...enough for now.